In honor of Baby and Infant Loss Awareness Week and Month, we push for the same level of attention given to causes like Breast Cancer. There's a lot to discuss from the physical and emotional toll, to the journey of naming our unborn children and the profound emotional connection that creates. As the world commemorates other causes, let’s expand the conversation about baby and infant loss.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
In honor of Baby and Infant Loss Awareness Week and Month, we push for the same level of attention given to causes like Breast Cancer. There's a lot to discuss from the physical and emotional toll, to the journey of naming our unborn children and the profound emotional connection that creates. As the world commemorates other causes, let’s expand the conversation about baby and infant loss.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
And I said to my wife very clearly that's my little Nemo and bro. I remember at that time she was like she didn't think that she was pregnant and she just kept saying no, I'm not pregnant. I was like you are pregnant, you are pregnant. So when she sent me this video, I remember the conversation like I told you you was pregnant, Then I tell you you're pregnant. And that's when she was like, yeah, I just didn't want to, you know, allow myself to, to, to get excited and this and that. But we have we have a heartbeat and that's what we both kept saying we have a heartbeat.
Speaker 1:This is the Miss Carriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miss Carriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host. My name is Chris and I am your co-host, and we are so thankful, once again, that you have decided to tune in and be part of this ongoing conversation that we have, where we are humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about it. And so Chris and I have been exploring our own stories, We've been sharing our experiences, We've been coming across all sorts of new discoveries within our own stories as a result of this ongoing conversation, and it's been fruitful for us personally.
Speaker 3:Most definitely, man, most definitely with this podcast. I've been sharing it around. I've had the chance to share it with family, had the chance to share it with friends and it's nice to hear them listen to it. It's it's nice talking to them. Sometimes someone will come up and say hey, chris, just to let you know I heard your podcast. In fact, my best friend texted me the other day and told me he told me he listened to the podcast and it was just nice to.
Speaker 1:I wasn't a deep conversation with him at all, but for him to recognize it and just text me something, it was great man, it was great yeah the feedback that I've also received has been positive, and we couldn't be more thankful for everyone who truly sees the value of us as fathers talking about this experience that, for the majority of the time, is mostly considered to be a mother's experience, but I think the perspective that you and I share the nuances that you and I bring out in these conversations about our experiences is really eye opening to people and gives us a layer of perspective that most often goes unnoticed.
Speaker 3:It's a different side of the story, a different side of the coin, if you will. Yeah, you know, for the the father to be the one talking about it and, of course, like we said before, that's the point of the podcast, yeah Is to be able to normalize talking about it, especially amongst men. But, like we just we were talking before we hopped on there are even some ladies that are listening and have heard the things that we've talked about. I think it's a big part of this conversation that's really bringing us together. I never really thought about it bridging that gap, maybe starting some conversations between spouses or boyfriend and girlfriend, even people that have experienced miscarriages, with some of the people that they may have had a past relationship with, being able to either go through that themselves, you know, because we don't know what people's relationships are like.
Speaker 3:I've broken up Maybe there are some people that still talk, but being able to open up that conversation is very important because it promotes healing, and that's the point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bro. Did you know that this week is from the ninth, so starting on Monday, and today being the? What is today the 13th? Yeah, today is the 13th, so currently we're recording this conversation, october Friday, october the 13th. Did you know? I know Spooky, but did you know that this whole week is considered a baby and infant loss awareness week? Wow, no, I didn't know that. And this whole month is considered pregnancy. And what is it? Pregnancy and infant loss awareness month?
Speaker 3:No man, I had no idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So unless you're in, like, immersed in the world of baby loss, which sounds like such a weird thing and awkward and uncomfortable thing to say, but this is what this week is commemorating. This week has been commemorating every single parent who is a bereaved parent as a result of baby loss and all of its iterations, whether it's miscarriage, whether it is neonatal, whether it is stillbirth, whatever, you lost the baby. This week is commemorating that, and this whole month of October is also designated as the month to bring awareness about this issue and for a month that also shares. Oh, maybe we could talk about this a little bit. October is also breast cancer awareness month.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes it is.
Speaker 1:Right, yes, it is that one is a little bit more popular.
Speaker 3:Right, but that's what I know, for you know, watching football, everyone's got the pink on. There was a hilarious TikTok video that just came out about it the other day. Won't talk about exactly what happened to the TikTok, but it was absolutely hilarious. Yeah, the wife shared it with me. But, yes, this is breast cancer awareness. But, like you said, that's a really interesting connection, just because we're talking about the breast, right, right, talking about it, not thinking about it sexually, but just thinking about what it is. It's a part of the woman that is the main center of nourishing their child.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:When a woman gets pregnant, their body goes through all these different things. Their body recognizes there's a baby, so of course their breasts begin to prepare for feeding that child. So when you have a loss, it's not like your body necessarily stopped and I know that's got to be something that's painful is your body feeling like there's supposed to be a child in that there? And, like you said, with this month, with it just being child loss awareness month, and thinking about those mothers that have, you know, have had children, possibly even that have been lost and not being able to nurture them the way that they wanted to, the way that they plan to, that's tough. That's tough.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on the flip side, because it's breast cancer awareness month, you have people that have kids but might not be able to care for them the way that they need because they've had breast cancer. There are women that have had to have their breasts removed. I'm sure that there might be women out there that had their breasts removed because of the cancer before they had children. So that connection is amazing. I think it makes sense and I'm glad it's there. I'm glad it's there. You know, I think I've got family members that have had breast cancer my grandmother's a breast cancer survivor. My aunt is breast cancer survivor, so this month has always been special in that regard. But now being able to pair it up with something else that is very close to me is also really special too, and I think again, for a lot of people that are out there it's needed, man. It's needed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, allow me to to bring out a different angle, to approach it from a different angle, is how comfortable we are talking about and raising this type of awareness for breast cancer, which is something that devastates the lives of many women and, like you just shared, many women in your life, in your circle, have been impacted by breast cancer, and you're right. The NFL has breast cancer awareness month colors, so all the guys wear pink, certain games and the the fields that are played in there's all sorts of advertisement and logos, and that and that is duly noted, because it's getting the national, even international, attention to raise awareness. Right, I mean, this is what you want in an effort, in a movement to raise awareness about a really important issue. How interesting it is, though, that for baby and infant loss, the awareness is not as visible, mm very true which to me is an indicator of the complexity it is and the discomfort about this topic and being in this world. Right, and it's it's much more of a downer to talk about losing a baby, losing a pregnancy, right, but how common, as you and I have been sharing our stories and as you and I are going to come across more and more people who are also going to share their stories. As you and I are immersing ourselves even deeper into this world, we realize that there are so many people impacted by this very tragic, painful and uncomfortable event, and so here's an entire month dedicated to raise awareness, and it doesn't yet have the level of national attention that breast cancer awareness has.
Speaker 1:And again, this is not to compare right. This is not. I am making a comparison, but this is not to say that one is more important than the other. Yeah, of course, this is just to, I guess, highlight how something as devastating as cancer and how deeply it impacts people that we know and love and care about, and how uncomfortable it is and it can be.
Speaker 1:We have gotten to a point socially, as a society, where we can broadcast NFL games and have NFL players who give their support, either for a parent, a spouse, a relative, a friend, an organization, even. You know that they're supporting and giving donations to that are funding research and what have you for breast cancer treatments and medication and what have you? How much more needed does this level of awareness about infant and baby loss need to have that level of attention as well, to raise that awareness so that, as a society. We know how to best support our neighbors, our families, our friends, our coworkers, whether they're celebrities or not, just people who are deeply impacted, whose whole lives have changed by this event, this tragic event of the loss of a baby.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's real man. That's real Because sometimes it can feel minimized and any loss is a great loss. Any loss is a great loss and to be able to start a conversation, for it to be taken more seriously and, like you said, for there to be a national, international level of support would be so important so that people could be able to move on, be encouraged to speak about it. You nailed it on the head, man. You nailed it on the head.
Speaker 1:So you're gonna hear my son and my nephew running around in the background screaming, having a good time. Again, this is a reminder that I live in a real house Real and I have children who live in this house and while you and I are sitting here having this really important conversation and we're trying to leave our imprint and make an impact, they're running around screaming, having a good time, yeah.
Speaker 3:Listen, man. Like you said, we're real dads man.
Speaker 1:We're real dads.
Speaker 3:That needs to be said. And when you're a dad and you have siblings or friends that have kids, those other kids come to visit and for those few hours you are also their dad. Yeah, yeah. So listen, I don't know about everybody else that's gonna be listening, but even if you just stop, move your head back over here. Hey, hey, cut that noise out. Yeah, we'll be fine. Well, we will all be fine. Every dad knows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's just what's gonna happen. We left off last week and again, dude, we had another incredible conversation and you helped me connect some dots in my experience and if you remember the story that I shared about putting my feet on the ground, putting my hands behind my back, strolling through the story as opposed to zooming through it, I wanna try to do that today again. Before we even get started, let me just say this outright I am feeling right now. I am feeling very nervous. Actually, I'm feeling very nervous about sharing and talking about this particular miscarriage because it's still traumatizing to me. And I'm speaking now, bro, and I'm trying to keep my emotions so that I can get through the story. That was one of the worst days of my life and there hasn't been many times where I felt powerless, where I felt useless, where I felt utterly discarded or discardable rather, and that day was one of those days. So the emotions are still. They're still close enough, they're still pretty raw. I've been able to tell this story before and have gotten through it Because, again, I've just told the details and then kept moving, but with the job that you've been doing these past two weeks and helping me pause and consider and make certain connections. I'm feeling nervous about the things that might come up today. So I just wanna let you know, bro, if your boy just ugly faces, it, just understand where that's coming from, because this is the worst experience that I've had in my life. So, with that being said, that doesn't mean that I'm not willing to talk about aspects of it. I'm willing to put it all out there. I'm just saying that these are. I'm just trying to name the emotions that I'm currently feeling right now.
Speaker 1:So where did we leave off? We left off last week with the second miscarriage. Obviously, after that, we had a successful pregnancy and our firstborn came right at the start of COVID, which was I say this respectfully, and I say this understanding that there are people who are listening to this and I don't even know if this may be applicable to you as well, but the COVID-19 pandemic was a devastating time for many people, not just in this country but around the world. Many people lost loved ones, family members, and they're still grappling with their absence to this day. Communities were completely destroyed and ravaged by this virus of COVID-19. And if you recall and I'm sure you can recall and you do recall those were some of the most uncertain moments of my life and in my history as a 38 year old man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, on the other hand, in conjunction with that my wife being pregnant during that time, for all of the anxiety that it caused us, it brought us one of the greatest gifts, which was to be able to have this insulated time with our brand new baby and family members. Only a few trusted family members came to the house. We weren't exposed to the larger community as first time parents. Chris, I can't even describe it to you, bro. It was some of the most precious time that I've had with my wife and that I've had with my son, those early months of his life being insulated at home, away from the larger society. Again, we were scared, we were anxious. The racial tension didn't help, I mean, it took a toll on me emotionally and mentally. Nevertheless, on the other hand, being able to be sent home from work and I got to, with my own two hands, prepare my son's nursery and put together all of his furniture and paint his room and feel like I contributed something meaningful to his arrival, and spend time with my wife, and without having to use any of my built up time at work, bro, that was truly, truly special. So we come out of that and first time parenthood is challenging because everything is a first and we're trying to figure things out and we're trying to do our best and we're trying to we're doing everything.
Speaker 1:At some point we decided that we wanted to try again and give our child a sibling. At this point, juki was probably a year and change, so we wanted to give him a sibling. So my wife and I decided that we would try again Now with our son. We knew what his name was going to be. In fact, we knew what the name of both of our kids were going to be. If it was a boy which he turned out to be a boy it would be Julius Camillo, and that's his full first name. It's not first and middle name, that's his full first name Julius Camillo.
Speaker 1:I love it. Julius Camillo, I love it. It is a combination of both of his grandmother's names Julie and Camille. Julius Camillo, that's beautiful. It just rolls off the tongue. It does. It irritates me when people ask me what's your son's name and I say Julius Camillo and they're like oh, julius, no, no, no, no, no, no. Julius Camillo. Listen closely to what daddy said. Come on, the parent of that child, who you asked that question to, said that that child's name is Julius Camillo. That's right.
Speaker 1:That's a boxer's name, man. Come on, bro, come on, hey man. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. Very regal. You know what I'm saying? Yes, julius Camillo. Yeah, bro, so that when I tell you that's a pet peeve of mine, bro, that's a pet peeve of mine when people just like, oh, his name is Julius, oh, so if your name is candle, then your first name is just Ken, or I can just call you Dole.
Speaker 3:Hey Dole.
Speaker 1:How you doing.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, no, no acknowledgement of the fact of the history and nothing, none, none.
Speaker 1:Just Julius. No, no, no, no, no. His name is Julius Camillo, and so we've been telling him from the gate. When somebody calls you Julius, you tell them that's not my name, my name is Julius Camillo, and say the whole name. So that's an aside. You don't need another Ted Talk right now, folks, that's just an aside. I call him Juki because that's Daddy's name for his little man. So we knew what Juki's name was going to be Julius Camillo. And if we had a girl, her name was going to be Kelly Rose, which is a combination of my first name and my wife's first name Beautiful. So we had that bro. We had that in the bag, like we just knew right. So we have Juki. We decide to try again and Michelle gets pregnant. We go. She goes to this first ultrasound. She scheduled it at a time when she was at work and she could get off. It was like nearby. So she goes to the first ultrasound and ultrasound technician. Here we go with this engine again, with this muffler.
Speaker 3:It's like every week, bro. They know when you're getting ready to start. You need to check your house for cameras, bro, because this person has studied you and is waiting, waiting. My God, it's like the second week and it's so sinister because they wait to the middle of the podcast when we're starting to get into the meat Like nah man. Come on, bro, check your bathroom bro, check the mirrors and you're smoking that.
Speaker 1:You are right, you are right. So she goes through the ultrasound by herself and the ultrasound technician gives her an opportunity, because you're not supposed to pull out your phone and record anything or any of that stuff. So she leaves the monitor on while she's doing the thing. She leaves it turned towards my wife and Michelle takes out her phone and she records a small, like five, six second video of our little blob with a heartbeat. Ah, dude, that was incredible. So then she sends me the text message with this video attached to it. Babe, we got a heartbeat, dude.
Speaker 1:I'm at work and I'm just like yo, I can't believe we're pregnant again. Like, this is awesome. And in my head we have a healthy baby now. So there is no way, shape or form that we're going to go back to experiencing any more miscarriages Like those days are behind us. You know what I mean, because whatever needed to be corrected, bro just got corrected. Juki's trajectory just lined up all the things that were left off, kilter than the first two pregnancies and miscarriages. Like he came, he cleaned that up. Clean slate. We have a healthy baby. We know that she can get pregnant. We know that she can hold the pregnancy to full term. Like we know that. So there's no way, shape or form that we're going to go backwards and have another miscarriage. That was my thought process.
Speaker 1:The first ultrasound confirmed that we have a heartbeat and in the text message exchange she's like doesn't it look like a little fish? And I'm like, oh my God, yeah, it does look like a little fish. So then I called that little fish Nemo. So I was like man, that's my little Nemo, right there, like I can't believe my little Nemo has a heartbeat. And dude, I remember I was sitting outside of my job just catching some fresh air when she texted me. So I remember just staring at my phone and just playing the video over and over and over and over and over again, I'm like, oh my gosh, yo, that's my little Nemo.
Speaker 1:Obviously we don't know what the sex of the baby is yet, because it's way too early, right? So she says you know, I'm scheduled for a follow-up appointment and I think it was like the following week or in two weeks or whatever the time frame was. It wasn't more than two weeks, so it must have been like within those two weeks. I think it was more precisely the following week she was scheduled for a follow-up ultrasound just to confirm that we still had a heartbeat and that everything was fine and that little Nemo was growing and measuring appropriately, and all of that stuff. So, dude, we're not thinking about. I'm not thinking about something bad is going to happen, because we I don't have a reason to think about that. I have all the reasons in the world to believe that, from here on out, another pregnancy, another healthy child, and then we'll be done with having children. She goes back the following week and you already know where this is going, bro there's no heartbeat. And when I went with her and they said the doctor said that there was no heartbeat I was devastated, bro, if there's a stronger word for devastated. I was that, because now I'm really confused. But we just had enough. We just had a healthy pregnancy, like we have a living child.
Speaker 1:So what is it about me? What is it about her? Is it even about me and her, like some of those questions that I was asking myself after the second miscarriage had resurfaced now in this third miscarriage. You know, we were, we were, we were, absolutely we were devastated in terms of how we related to each other. This is now our third time going through this. We obviously we've gone through this enough times that we now know how to relate to one another. I know how to support her, she knows how to support me. The levels of conversations that we're having keep getting deeper and more intimate and I open up more and she opens up more and we're really there for each other. So, on that front, ever since that first one where I completely botched it, we're solid and in that regard we are solid, we're good.
Speaker 1:We get told that you know, she, she has to schedule for another procedure, another DNC. I think this was the first time, or maybe it's just my memory of it, but I do recall the physician talking about the possibility that you know things may happen before. So we have the scheduled date, but you know, you never know things might, might happen before For some reason. That's part of my memory I don't know if it's just me making it up or if it was an actual thing that happened. And, honestly, I was talking to my wife and my sister about this today. I think this was the time when we were just told that we were not, that she was not pregnant anymore, that we were having another miscarriage, and when we were leaving the office, and I believe that this was particularly this one was the event where the miscarriage, where this happened, we're leaving the doctor's office and we're walking from the little consultation room back out to the world and one of the clerks saw us walking out, leaving not knowing the kind of news that we received, not knowing if it was positive news, not knowing if it's negative news. But I guess just her would seem automatic to her, would seem natural to her, just kicked in, it was just second nature and she was like take care, guys, congratulations. And I was saying to my wife today I was like I turned and I looked at her and in my head I thought, congratulations.
Speaker 1:Like you don't even think about what you're saying to people who come in here, like you don't know what people are told. You can't just assume that everyone who comes here they're being told good news, like to me that just seems so insensitive. It just seemed like common sense, like hey, yo, we work in this place where people can get good news, people can get bad news. Of course we all want everybody to get good news, but we also know that people come here on a daily basis and many of the people who come here on a daily basis get told that they're having a miscarriage. So instead of saying these you know cliche things like let's just either not say anything or find a more thoughtful way to greet people when they're coming in and to greet people when they're going out, that's respecting of whatever news they were just told back there, right.
Speaker 1:Like if you obviously see somebody coming out of that little consultation room and you know talking with the doctor and they seem happy and they're excited and they're disin that or whatever, and like, oh my gosh, and they're showing each other pictures or you get some type of indication that yo, they got some, by all means, hey, congratulations.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. But if there is ambiguity there and you don't know, you don't just, you don't just say stuff like that, you don't just assume that this is what happens, that they got good news. So that really left an imprint on me. Like we're not even thinking here, we're just reacting, we're just assuming, and these levels of assumptions, just like we've spoken about the words that physicians can tell people that really shaped their relationship, that happens with anyone, any of us really you know what I mean. Like I wonder if I've ever been in a situation where I've said something to someone, not knowing what they were going through, and I completely screwed up their day or completely. You understand what I'm saying. Like, I'm not saying that. I'm that I am exempt from that, but it's just a matter of you don't know how significant, how impactful your words can be to someone when you just don't think about what you say, bro.
Speaker 3:I think we've been trained for so long as a society in general to be as kind as possible, and what we don't realize sometimes is that we do it so much it just becomes wrote. I'm sure that day she was just wanting to give good customer service, 100%, because that's that's what good customer service is.
Speaker 3:However, in that, like you said, she was not paying attention, she clearly missed the cues or misread the situation and, like you said, even in her, obviously what she said wasn't malicious, but even in her attempt to do good work, she was in it almost like a robot, was unable to detect the emotions. I think that speaks to a larger problem with society in that we've taken being nice and removed it from emotion.
Speaker 3:We've taken being good to others and removed it from actually being empathetic and understanding to what the other person could possibly be going through. Action without thought means nothing. Nothing, bro, absolutely nothing, I would say. Especially for places like this the OBGYN, the doctor's office, the hospital, wherever it's so important to make sure that their type of customer service is, their training has to be different. This isn't a restaurant. At a restaurant, when you're leaving, regardless of what's going on, you're going to want to say thank you so much, have a great day, please come again. When someone is upset at a restaurant, oh, it's visible. Restaurants are had all sorts of things, but having a bad meal experience is not the same as literally losing a child.
Speaker 1:You can be more programmed than what you say in a restaurant because you're going off the same menu Exactly. So you're having the same conversation with people day in and day out. You're either going to take this plate or this plate or this plate, and you're either going to order this drink or that drink or this drink. It's a set menu. Yes, right.
Speaker 3:Yes, that's just what it is, this is what it is.
Speaker 1:It is what it is, it's fine.
Speaker 3:If I say, oh sorry, no, no, no, go ahead, go ahead. I was going to say, if you're walking out and I say, oh, have a great day, hope you had a good time, the person can then respond well, I didn't have a good time. Oh, I'm sorry, sir, is there anything I can do to rectify that? But when you're walking out, unlike you have described so far it being one of the worst experiences of your life, and I want to dig into that a little bit. There's no. What can I do to make it better? There's no. How can I help you? I mean, if you turned around and said to her my day is terrible, what are you congratulating? I just found out I lost my kid. Yeah, bro.
Speaker 1:Congratulations for what? Yeah, yeah, for finding out that we're not, that this is our third miscarriage and four pregnancies Right. Right. Like obviously she didn't know that.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, right, she was actually trying to be a good person, she was trying to be a good person, but I love what you said.
Speaker 1:Action without thought means absolutely nothing, it's just robotic.
Speaker 3:And it caused yeah, and it caused you harm that day, and she didn't even know it.
Speaker 1:No, no idea, no, no, and you're right, like I bring this up because I think we can all in some way shape or form not just related to pregnancy loss or anything like that, I think as just a basic general human rule, our words matter. Yes, and obviously we're not always going to say the right things at the right time. Right, that young lady didn't know that what she said was inappropriate. Not because she said something inappropriate. My context at the time was not conducive to what she meant.
Speaker 1:Yes, so things clashed, yes, but yes, I think we can all learn in our own context, depending on what's going on, that being more thoughtful, talking to people is something that we need to. Everyone deserves, everyone deserves somebody who is thoughtful towards them. And conversation, because we don't know, I don't know what you're going through by just looking at you. You don't know what I'm going through by just looking at me. Right, and I think and this might be like going off a little bit, but this is what this is what devastates families, friends, society at large when particularly a public figure who seemed on the outside like everything is peachy, and then everyone wakes up to the news that this person took their own lives.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean and it's like the questions that people tend to ask is how come we didn't see this coming? Like, how come there were no external signs? Right, because externally, by just looking at you or you looking at me, you can't know what I'm going through and I can't know what you're going through. But being thoughtful in conversation and just being open to whatever it is, you respond. You know, american cultures is such that when we walk past each other in the hallway, let's say we're, let's say we work in the same place. This happens to me every day at work. I see people from Monday through Friday or Thursday and you know the same places and the we work in the same place and it's like, hey, how are you doing? But we don't stop to actually talk to each other. We just keep walking.
Speaker 1:So I'm asking you how you're doing, robotically, but I'm not stopping to listen to your response because, quite honestly, I don't care about your response. I'm just trained to respond that way to you because that's just the right thing to do, which is the point that you are making, right. But I remember when I was an undergrad and I was learning Italian in college that summer that I was learning Italian, the school brought professors from Italy to come and teach at the college. So we're talking about native Italian speakers who came into the American culture to teach American people how to speak and think in Italian and all of that stuff. And the one teacher, the one professor she was telling us this experience in class. Her name was Monica.
Speaker 1:She was like she saw a student, one of the grad students, and she was like hey, how are you doing? And then she stopped because her nature, her culture is, when you see somebody, you ask them how they're doing, you actually stop to have a conversation because the expectation is for that person to respond and you're expected to like, stand there and communicate and respond and talk. And hey, this is this is you know what I'm saying? Like it's not to say that, it's like a deep conversation, but it's not the passing in the hallway. Hey, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm fine, you disappeared. So then she said, this student asked her how are you doing? And so she stopped to have a conversation and when she looked up she was the student. Just kept on walking and she said that was such a cultural shock for her because that's just not part of her, that was just not part of her nature, that's just not part of her culture. So being being thoughtful in that way is, yeah, man it. We. I think we owe that to each other as people, right? I think we owe that to each other as as members of of this society.
Speaker 1:Like, I don't, I don't know what you're going through. It would be better if I just assumed that Chris is going through something. Let me just assume that Chris is going through something. So how does that then change my approach to Chris when I see him? All right, how does that change how I greet you in the morning? How does that really, how does that influence my disposition toward you when I see you?
Speaker 1:So when I ask you how you doing, am I going to stop and expect for you to respond, or am I just going to not say that at all and just acknowledge you hey man, if you need anything, I'm here and just leave it open and like, how does that influence? You know what I mean. So I just think that's a. That's obviously not part of the conversation, but I think that is an an important piece of this whole paradigm, because walking out that day, those words were not the words that were appropriate for me and my wife. Have a nice day, congratulations. So we were just told that we were yet having another miscarriage, so we I don't remember if we came home- yeah, yeah, yeah, before you keep going, yeah, feed on the ground.
Speaker 1:Feed on the ground. Feed on the ground.
Speaker 3:Yeah, keep it there. No, no move Going back a little bit, yeah, and I, I it was hard for me to get excited because I could hear you are going through the story and you were talking about. You've had your first child. Now you are trying again, michelle gets pregnant and those fears are gone because you already have a child now. Yes, you've been through it twice before, but last time it worked. And when you started talking about going back to the OBGYN for that first time and she went by herself and showed you the heartbeat because I haven't heard the story yet, but because of our subject matter, I know where this is going Like.
Speaker 3:Today we are talking about your third law, so I know eventually this story is supposed to end in a loss, but, man, the hope that I've, that I heard in your voice, knowing that, okay, the heartbeat was there.
Speaker 3:Man, that's tough because now and this is something that you've kind of been describing You're not even. You are almost like back pre those two miscarriages because you got a heartbeat. That was the first hurdle all of those times. Now you're in a space where, just like the last pregnancy, you heard the heartbeat, which I completely understand, because we just had our second child, randall, and when it was the same thing for me and I think that's why it kind of stuck out to me, because when I heard Randall's heartbeat even though in my brain there was still the over cautiousness because of the possibility of a miscarriage later on, it just never crossed my mind. It put me back in that place of before I had a miscarriage, when I had Chris and everything just happened. So to then go back for your second checkup and then to suddenly find out there's no heartbeat, and in between all this I feel like there is something very important that happened you gave your child a name. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:We're just waiting. Well, yes, that was my little name, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:That was my little name. You never had the chance to do that before.
Speaker 1:No, man, I was hoping you didn't bring those things up, but you wouldn't be an amazing co-host if you didn't, right? Mm-hmm? That was the difference. That was the difference with the first two, or from the first two. We had a heartbeat, bro. I have the video. I still have the video. And to look at it and see the heartbeat, if I had any residue of doubt or anything like that, that heartbeat erased and eradicated all of it. So it was really a blank slate and you are absolutely right.
Speaker 1:In retrospect, I see it as it's almost like I blame myself for the disappointment and the hurt that I felt, because I should have known better, like I should have known better and I had a moment of euphoria about this pregnancy and I drank the Kool-Aid as if I had not drank the disappointment Kool-Aid of two previous miscarriages and I allowed myself to name this little fish like blob, my little Nemo. So now, before even knowing, like I said before, even knowing the sex of the baby, that the act of naming something or someone is significant. Yes, it is so significant. That's why I don't like when people just call my son Julius. Like we gave him a name for a reason and his name means something. So call him by his full first name, it doesn't matter how uncomfortable it might be for you. That is a you problem, right? So I named this little fish like blob with a heartbeat and I said to my wife very clearly that's my little Nemo and bro.
Speaker 1:I remember at that time she was like she didn't think that she was pregnant and she just kept saying no, I'm not pregnant. I was like you are pregnant, you are pregnant. So when she sent me this video, I remember the conversation like I told you you was pregnant. Then I tell you you're pregnant. And that's when she was like, yeah, I just didn't want to, you know, allow myself to, to, to get excited and this and that. But we have, we have a heartbeat. And that's what we both kept saying we have a heartbeat. And then we go back and it's not viable. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm just like oh man, this is you know here, here we go again.
Speaker 3:Something that we've talked about a few times. We've talked about what happens as a father. Even though the child is not growing in your room because you don't have one, it's growing in your imagination and when you give your child a name, you now have given your child a next level of life. Yes, Because with a name comes character, with a name comes attitude, with a name comes life. A funny example but I'm not really trying to be funny Castaway. When Tom Hanks names the volleyball Wilson, yeah, At first it's kind of funny. Yeah, Then you know as the story goes on and Tom Hanks is on that island for however long I can't remember. It's been a while since I've seen the movie. But, my goodness, even though it's been forever since I've seen the movie, I still remember how I felt when Wilson started drifting away off the raft oh my God, the raft, bro.
Speaker 1:I was crying over a freaking volleyball.
Speaker 3:Bro, me too Crying over the volleyball. An inanimate object. An inanimate object. Can I breathe? It never spoke, not a word. It never had a character. Bro, it was a volleyball, not just a volleyball, but when we remember, he fast forwarded through time. He had, I guess it broke or something like that. He put a bunch of straw in it so it could stay full.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then remember when he went fishing and his hand was bleeding and then he put his handprint with so then that was Wilson's like face. Yes, yes, yes. And here we are talking about Wilson as if it was a thing or a person.
Speaker 3:Right, bro, crying over it. When he's crying, we're crying, we're devastated, devastated. And then after a while he gets back home and I remember at the end of the movie he's driving. I can't remember exactly where he's going, but he has a volleyball brand new volleyball that he bought. Yeah, just sitting in the car.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's when he was going to deliver the mail that he should have been delivering to the people. Yeah, yes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what it was. That's what it was, yeah, yeah, and he's got the volleyball there, yeah. And I think in this situation and obviously I'm not trying to make you emotional, I'm just because I'm thinking about this myself but that's who Nemo is you have a child that you have given a name, and not just any name Nemo. We know that movie, a story about a father's love for their child. And you're going into this second time now, not just with hopes of the child being alive, because you know for a fact the child is alive, this is Nemo. And then to go in there and find out that the baby is gone.
Speaker 3:And I guess I just want to say this for other people that are going through these different things and these different levels let's not pretend like there's not different levels.
Speaker 3:First of all, it's not just the trauma of losing a child, but the trauma of being thrown back into a place that you never expected to go through, and I heard how you were talking about going to that place again, of you and your wife talking. You've been through it before, you know how to be with each other, but even in that it's still almost. I must now detach all my emotions and go through the motions of experiencing another loss. It goes from expectation and this great vision and having this baby now, because we've done it before, to, all of a sudden, I'm in my third loss and this is just what I'm hearing, based on the way you're describing it. It felt like you guys got thrown back and you're thrown back into this space that I don't know. You can fill this in, obviously, because this is your story, but how did that feel? Did it feel like you had to detach because you said you guys were sharing and you're processing, but was there still almost an attachment in order to keep your heart safe?
Speaker 1:We felt numb I know I did there was a. There was a level of. There was a new wrinkle of guilt on top of what I already expressed that started to settle in. I started asking myself why do I think that having a living child is not enough? Why am I trying to pursue another child? What does that say about how I feel about Juki? Wow, knowing that we have a history of miscarriages? Why am I doing this to my wife? Why am I putting her through these circumstances? What does that say about how I feel about her, how I view her? Are we chasing a rabbit?
Speaker 1:Am I willing to put my wife and my son and their emotional well-being at danger because I want to satisfy this desire to have another child? Is that worth it, more than what I already have? Am I being ungrateful for what I already have? Do I want to attain something that is not for me to attain? Am I trying to force this, to will this into happening, where it may not be God's will for us to have another child? Am I ignoring God's will? For me as a husband, as a father to my family, I mean, I'm asking myself all sorts of questions, bro. Here is this deep drive for another child.
Speaker 1:All that to say, michelle felt very strongly about trying again for another child because she didn't want Juki to be a single child. My wife and my brother-in-law have 10-plus years age gap between them. For at least a decade she lived as an only child. She has that experience, and now that she's a mother, it was very important to her that her child not feel a level of isolation as she felt growing up. I understood it from her perspective and so I wanted to do my part in making sure that we had another child, because some of the points that she brought up while we were talking about it and, believe me, we had extensive conversations about that and I just saw how important it was to her there was a part of me that of course I wanted to have more children, but because of our experience in getting to the one, I was satisfied with the one.
Speaker 1:But then what happened to that satisfaction? Well, I'm doing this because of her, because that's a lie I wanted another child also. But then now, why did I want another child? I thought I was already satisfied. My wife's desire is aside. What was now the impulse in me that was driving me to want to have another child, taking our history, knowing what could happen, why did I let my hair down and give this blob a name? Why did I become so hopeful? I should have known better. These were the things that. These were the thoughts that were in my head. These were the questions that I was asking.
Speaker 3:This is why it's so important to talk about this, because everything that you described, all the guilt that came on to you, absolutely baseless, absolutely baseless. There's no reason for you to feel guilty or have felt guilty about trying again. There was no reason for you to have felt like I'm being selfish or somehow being greedy by trying to have another child. That's just who we are as human beings. Yeah, I understand, everyone doesn't want to have kids, but at the same time, there are plenty of us that do, and I don't mean kid kids. It's just natural, it's okay. But when these kinds of things happen, it makes you question that being able to have hope that you're going to have a child and you having to say why did I allow myself to hope? Why did I allow my quote unquote guard down, what guard should be up? What reason should you have to not hope? Yes, there's always a possibility that a child could be lost, and that's why we're here, that's why we're talking about that, because for a lot of us, that fear became a reality. That's what I mean when I say that this must be talked about, because now there are these barriers that we've placed up that should not be there. We should not be afraid to try to have children again. We should not be afraid to open our hearts again because, even though it is the scariest scariest thing in the world to do it again because you know there's a chance of loss there's also this incredibly beautiful thing that could happen on the other end, when you get to a place where you are afraid to move forward. That's a wound, that's a scar. That's almost like having a limb, a finger, removed. It's almost like having a limb removed because now there was something that was there that you should be able to function with, like hope that you can no longer function with anymore. It's been taken away. For a lot of us it never comes back and that is something that needs to be expressed. That's something that needs to be healed.
Speaker 3:Just hearing you bring those questions up, I know a lot of the people that are listening have had those same questions and felt the same way. Shoot, I have. There is a fear. Now, granted, me and Amber, we've decided we're done, mostly because we are tired and 35 years old and I have a four-month-old. I don't know. I mean, obviously this was God's plan. I don't know why, but I'm tired. I love my child, I love random to death. But, boy, he has shown me that we are done. However, in the back of my mind there is still a strong fear of trying again, because I know that there is a possibility that, like you said, I can put my wife in a situation I haven't considered myself yet. I can put my wife in a situation where she could lose another child and for me, I can put myself in a position where I allow myself to hope, allow myself to love, only for that to be taken away, and not just like a loss of relationship but ultimately taken away in that love now being lost because of death.
Speaker 1:I don't have anything else to add, bro. Unfortunately, we have to end it or leave it. Press pause on this version. My wife and my son are having a moment and I need to intervene. Dad life, Dad life, yeah, dad life. But yeah, dude, everything that you said I co-signed, and well said. So when we reconnect, we'll have to pick up from this intermission point and move the story forward.