Remember that hushed silence that follows a heartbreaking revelation? Those moments of helplessness when there's an intrusion of an unexpected crisis into your safe space? We do. As we peel back the layers of our personal experiences with miscarriages and dealing with the following struggles, we take you on an emotional expedition. We examine the profound impact of such an event on our perceptions of manhood and masculinity, and how it challenged the societal notion that equates our identity to the ability to provide and protect.
Who knew that the strength of our presence could outweigh the might of our actions? We unfold this revelation in our conversation today as we focus on the importance of showing up for our partners and loved ones during challenging times. We reveal that our most significant contribution isn't always material but often emotional support and understanding. We also journey into our experiences of healing and recovery, emphasizing the need for emotional vulnerability and communication in relationships.
We end our discussion recognizing the unspoken bond that forms amongst men who have undergone similar painful experiences. We take a moment to remind those who have faced such situatons that they are not alone, and there is comfort and understanding in shared experiences. We hope our candid discussions inspire others to redefine their understanding of manhood in ways that value emotional needs and resilience. Join us as we navigate this complex terrain of loss, masculinity, and emotional resilience.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Remember that hushed silence that follows a heartbreaking revelation? Those moments of helplessness when there's an intrusion of an unexpected crisis into your safe space? We do. As we peel back the layers of our personal experiences with miscarriages and dealing with the following struggles, we take you on an emotional expedition. We examine the profound impact of such an event on our perceptions of manhood and masculinity, and how it challenged the societal notion that equates our identity to the ability to provide and protect.
Who knew that the strength of our presence could outweigh the might of our actions? We unfold this revelation in our conversation today as we focus on the importance of showing up for our partners and loved ones during challenging times. We reveal that our most significant contribution isn't always material but often emotional support and understanding. We also journey into our experiences of healing and recovery, emphasizing the need for emotional vulnerability and communication in relationships.
We end our discussion recognizing the unspoken bond that forms amongst men who have undergone similar painful experiences. We take a moment to remind those who have faced such situatons that they are not alone, and there is comfort and understanding in shared experiences. We hope our candid discussions inspire others to redefine their understanding of manhood in ways that value emotional needs and resilience. Join us as we navigate this complex terrain of loss, masculinity, and emotional resilience.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Here is something that is happening to someone who I deeply love and care about, and it's happening in this safe space where we wake up every morning and we go to sleep every night, and it just felt like there was an intruder that came into our home and changed everything around, and so I just felt out of place, and I even felt out of place with her. This is the Miss Carriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads, openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome back to another episode of the Miss Carriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host.
Speaker 3:My name is.
Speaker 1:Chris, and I am your co-host and we are very thankful that you continue to tune in or listen in on your audio platforms or watch our videos on YouTube, and week after week, except that the last time we didn't really release anything. And it happens, man. We have lives you know I'm sorry. Hey look sorry.
Speaker 3:The whole point is we are dads, we've got lives, you know, and if I'm not mistaken, you got attacked by those little Xenomorphs, the little kid germs.
Speaker 1:I did, I did, man, it was tough, I was. I lost that fight. I lost that battle. I lost the battle.
Speaker 3:Hey man, I'm convinced that that's that was the inspiration for Ridley Scott when he made Alien. It was. It's about kid germs. It sneaks around, kills all of the adults, literally bursts out of their chest and when it does, it makes another one. So that's, that is literally that's kid germs.
Speaker 1:It's a good analogy right there, because that's exactly how I felt. I felt like things were bursting out of me and anyway wouldn't I talk about that. But yeah, bro, thank you for checking in. I'm feeling so much better now. Good, good, how's the family man? How are the kids? How's Randall? And how is little Chris handling the transition?
Speaker 3:Man, they're doing good. It's funny seeing how their relationship is growing, because Chris is six, he's going to return seven in December and to see him interact with this little four month old is so cool because Chris is getting more comfortable talking to him. It's not that he, he just didn't know what to say. It wasn't like he was like jealous or anything. That was never him, he just didn't know what to say. Now he just comes up and grabs his arms and is playing with his arms and Randall loves his big brother so much yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:As soon as Chris shows up, me and Amber, we don't exist anymore. It is Chris, eyes locked, literally. Last night they were playing. Chris would just laugh and Randall would just start laughing. Like I have to work hard to get a laugh from Randall. All Chris has to do is walk in the room and smile and he's laughing Like that's awesome. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, man. It's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Yeah, we're at the point now with Juki and Eden that big brother loves to play with little brother. Little brother is fixated on big brother and because my nephew also lives with us, so he's watching both his big brother and his cousin do things, so he literally figured out how to crawl in like a week and a half. Oh, wow, at first he was doing the military crawl, yeah, and then he started to get on all fours and then he started twerking a little bit and we were like, who taught you how to twerk Right? And then he figured like you know, there's like motion to this thing and there's coordination to this thing and, bro, one day he just went for it and now he is out. Like, you put him on the floor and he is out, yeah, so he wants to be with the shenanigans that his brother's doing, that his cousin is doing, especially when they're running around, and he just wants to be trying to keep up after them and pulling himself up and standing up. But his legs aren't like that steady yet and so he'd be falling back and all of that jazz. So, yeah, man, we have a little adventure on our hands here.
Speaker 1:But it's been incredible, bro. So we left off last conversation and I was about to do that thing that I'm known to do and you did that thing that you're so good at in pausing and exploring you know where we are. So we left off, I guess, when I was talking about giving the little blob with the heartbeat a name Nemo, and then you just stopped and we started to explore that. So that's where we left off. I'm going to pass the ball and put it in your court and have you lead this conversation to wherever it's going to go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, I mean, I just wanted to pick up where we left off, because when we were talking we talked about, of course, the miscarriage happening, but it happened after the heartbeat after, like you said, you saw a little guy, saw a little blob, gave him a name Nemo, and then the next time you guys go, the heartbeat's gone. I think that's probably a good place to start, because that's kind of where we stopped and took a second.
Speaker 1:So we went. I think this time I went to the ultrasound with my wife because, if you recall the first ultrasound, when she sent me the video of the blob with the heartbeat, she was by herself and it was arranged that way that that's the way that she wanted it to happen, because she was at work, she didn't want me to miss a day of work and so far and so forth. So she was at work and she sent me the blob and we had a laugh and we were excited. But then when she said that she had to go back for the second ultrasound, for like a follow-up ultrasound, just to make sure that her hormones were growing, that the blob was growing and the heartbeat was strong, because it was a little faint the heartbeat, so wanted to find a strong heartbeat and all of that jazz. And because of the history of the first two miscarriages, she was being monitored very closely. So it was a lot of blood work and it got to a point I think it was starting with this one and then also the next one and, like all the other times, that she got pregnant, basically with the exception of Eden, because with Eden she no longer wanted to go through all of the things that she went through with the other pregnancies and it was just a lot of blood work, going to the hospital like every week, and I mean it was just, it was just a lot, right. So I decided that this time I will go with my wife so that she's not by herself particularly feeling like man. Could we really be going through this again?
Speaker 1:So we get to the clinic or to the hospital and we walk into the room and the doctor comes in and she places the gelio on my wife's belly and she grabs the ultrasound, not the one, but just the over the belly, just a little handle, thingy-majig, and she starts looking for heartbeat and bro, silent. The only thing you can hear is just the sound of the ultrasound machine. But you couldn't hear that, the echo of the heartbeat. There was nothing. You just heard the machine moving and every time that she changed the positions you heard that echo. But there was no that particular sound of a heartbeat. It never came.
Speaker 1:And after searching for I don't even know how long it was, man, it felt like it was like 10 minutes, but I don't even think it was that long and then she just said you know, I'm sorry, but there is no heartbeat. I'm just standing there and I'm numb. At this point I just shut down. I'm numb, michelle is also numb and I don't know. Chris, I can't remember if I cried or if she cried. I'm trying to remember now. Did either of us cry? Did we not cry? I have no idea With that particular one, I have no idea. So we left and again, I can't even remember if I went back to work or if she went back to work. It's all a blur, bro. It is all a blur.
Speaker 1:What I do know is that and I think I mentioned this the last time part of my recollection of these events has this notion that this awareness of things could happen at home. So again, my wife had to go and schedule another DNC and I think, doing that with the doctor, she was like obviously we have the scheduled date for this procedure, but things could happen at home. I think that's how the conversation, that's how that part of it came to be. But we have no idea what that means. I have no idea what that means Things could happen at home. I don't know what that means. It's like whatever. And here is yet another instance of you don't know what you don't know. So I just took that as I don't even know what. I took it as Things could happen at home.
Speaker 1:So one morning we're getting ready to go to work and our first born he was about a year and change and we would drop him off at my in-laws house and they live about 10 minutes away from us, which is a huge help, especially during COVID times, them coming to drop off food and that kind of stuff. They've been a tremendous source of help and I just got to pause and give my in-laws a shout out. Bro, I have incredible in-laws. I mean incredible in-laws. My mother-in-law laughs at my jokes. Oh, man. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's saying something right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bro, she laughs. We have a similar sense of humor. I would just say stuff and then she's like cracking up. And my father-in-law, it goes completely over his head. He's just not. He doesn't have that sense of humor and he's a particular guy and he is quirky in his own ways. But it works and I appreciate him and I admire him and I love him. And my mother-in-law I mean that's just my girl, like that's my girl. So they live about 10 minutes away from us, close parenthesis, shout out to my in-laws and we're getting ready to go to work and we're getting ready to do just the normal morning routine the baby ready, get ourselves ready, get in the car, drop him off, go off to work. I drop her off at work and then I go to work.
Speaker 1:And she was downstairs in the powder room that we have on the main level of our house and I'm upstairs in my room, in our room and bro out of nowhere, I just hear my wife call for me in a way that I've never heard her call for me and the level of distress and her call for me made my blood curl because I have never heard my name come out of her mouth in that way. And I can't remember, chris, if I ran down the stairs, if I walked down the stairs, if I skipped a couple of steps or if I jumped from the top step to the bottom. Your boy can't remember. All I know is I heard this blood curling call for me and like a second later, I was at the bottom step, making my way to where she was, and there she was In the bathroom, on the toilet.
Speaker 1:It was happening at home and she was in excruciating pain and, bro, there was blood everywhere. And so I happened on this scene, this horrifying scene. Horrifying because I was not expecting to see all of this blood and I was not expecting to, I was not expecting any of it, like I had no way of. There was no preparation, there was no, there was nothing, bro, there was nothing, I, there was nothing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I just stood there, frozen, rooted to the spot, and I was in a moment of crisis because I didn't know what to do. Yeah, yeah. So she's crying and in pain and she's uncomfortable and I realized that if I try to go hold her or hug her or anything, it would that's not the right thing to do at this time and I also felt like I felt like I needed to do something. But this is, and there hasn't been many times in my life where I felt helpless. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That time, right there, I felt utterly helpless.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's the exact word that popped in my head, man, with what you just write.
Speaker 1:Because I just realized that this is something that she has to go through, that she is going through entirely by herself, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Entirely by herself and there is nothing at that moment that I could possibly say, do or anything. So she's in so much pain, she's sitting on the toilet and then she, just she, just like she needed to lay on the floor because her body was hot, she needed to make contact with something that was cold. So there she is and she's just laying on the floor with all this blood surrounding her and all of that. So I mean, my guy, it is really difficult to talk about this and not feel like I'm right back in that day in that place, even though it happened here at home. So it's not like I've never seen our bathroom before or after, and I can tell you that every time I walk in that particular bathroom, there is a part of my subconscious that always goes back to that day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Before you go on, I just wanna point out there's some other things I wanna talk about, but I'll talk about those later. But before we go on, I think, first of all, it's important for you to know I understand exactly what you were going through and for everyone that has listened before, when I told my story, amber passed her miscarriage too, the confusion because again don't know what's going on. Again, that's something I'll touch on a little bit later, after you share a little bit more the helplessness, and so I just want you to know, as you are sharing this story, bro, I completely understand and as you're imagining yourself going through this man, just know I'm right there with you, like the helplessness, the not knowing what to do, and I think that's exact. This is one of the exact reasons why we wanted to do this was because we need to know that there are people out there that understand, because just knowing that, even though in that moment in time you were helpless, being able to share that now, knowing that there are other people that are with you that have felt the same way, and I hope that that kind of helps, as you're telling the story, to at least help you know, hey, man, even though in that moment you're alone. You're not alone in sharing this now.
Speaker 3:So you don't have to worry about feeling alone in the sharing because, like, as you're describing it, man, I mean I am seeing all of it in my mind, not just seeing the scene, but feeling the feelings, like I mean it's to the point that, as you're sharing, like you almost don't even have to share, like how you're feeling, because I get it, I get it, my man. So I just wanted to say that before you kept going, man, just to let you know look, bro, I'm here with you as you're going through this and I know exactly what you're going through in this moment. So, as you're sharing, bro, I don't want you to feel like you're by yourself. I'm right here with you and I get it, I get it. And for anyone who's listening, maybe this is something that happened to you as well Just know that, as we're even talking about it and you're going through it and you're in mind even for us, we're here with you. We understand the feelings, we understand the moment, especially as men, what this means for us.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, keep going, man. So.
Speaker 1:I need to say that. No, I appreciate you. I appreciate you sharing that. So at that moment of helplessness and confusion and just not feeling like I just felt out of place. Yeah, you know, here I am in my home. I felt like a stranger in my own home. Here is something that is happening to someone who I deeply love and care about, and it's happening in this safe space where we wake up every morning and we go to sleep every night. Yeah, and it just felt like there was an intruder that came into our home and changed everything around, and so I just felt out of place, and I even felt out of place with her as if I was not supposed to be witnessing that. Like I have no right to be witnessing her in that level of vulnerability Because I can't relate to anything that she's going through.
Speaker 1:I can't relate to anything that she's feeling because I can't relate to what not just her body is going through. What is her mind going through right now? Like I can't relate to any of that at the time, and so it's almost like watching. You know the awkwardness that people, especially in our society and our culture here in America it's less so in European culture when you see people, like in public, and they're making out, you know, you kind of feel a little. You kind of feel a little weird about that, like, oh man, let me awkwardly just look somewhere else, or you know just it. Like that's what, something like that, but a hundred times more intense. Yeah, like I'm not supposed to just stand there and watch her in that way. It's almost like it's offensive to what's happening and and and it. Bro, I can't even find the right words to really describe what I'm trying to say. Amen.
Speaker 3:You don't, you feel like you don't belong.
Speaker 1:I didn't belong, bro. I didn't belong. So in that moment I thought about Juki. I thought about our son and I'm like there's no way that he needs to hear the amount of anguish that his mother is experiencing right now. Number one and number two there's no way that I'm going to be able to take care of her with him here. Yeah, Because it's just not going to happen. So I had a choice to make and I did what seemed like the only right thing to do at the time. I ran back upstairs, I grabbed my son and his stuff his diaper bag and what have you. I put him in the car seat and I came back to my wife, who was still in excruciating pain, and I said to her I am going to go to your parents and drop Juki off and I'll be right back. And I know that's the right. I know that was the right thing to do, Chris. Yeah, but it felt like the most.
Speaker 1:I felt horrible. Yeah, how am I going to leave her in her condition for like 20 minutes? Yeah, and that's 20 minutes If I just go drop him off and then get back in the car and come back. Yeah, so for whatever stretch of time that I'm not going to be there with her, even though I'm doing the right thing, it just felt like I was abandoning her to go through this by herself. It almost felt like a cop out for me, like I have this cop out because I have my son that I'm going to take over there. Did I need to take him to his grandparents house? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, it still felt like a cop out, though. Man, man.
Speaker 3:You know, I don't know. I don't think. First of all, like you said, you did the right thing. But it's almost like that impossible choice. Right, you know, you watch movies and the person has to choose between who's going to die. How do you make the choice? How do you live with the choice that you make, even when you know it was the right choice? Because, like you said, juki didn't need to see that, he didn't need to hear it, he didn't need to be around it.
Speaker 3:When it happened to me and Amber, it was early in the morning. Chris was asleep, knocked out, so he didn't hear anything, he didn't know. Anything happened in your situation where the kid is awake and, like you said, it's funny because when you mentioned that your in-laws are only 10 minutes down the street, that's close, but you can feel the distance. When now, all of a sudden, you're like it's 10 minutes and, like you said, that's one way. So now it's 10 minutes there that's not counting time to get the kid in, buckle him in, make sure he's safe, buckled in turn on the car, drive down the street I don't know if there's any stop signs or stop lights that happen getting him inside, and you know, either explaining or not explaining what's going on.
Speaker 1:And then, well, that's exactly what happened. Oh, okay, because we so taking a step way back. Yeah, we hadn't told her parents or my family that she was pregnant. Oh, the only pregnancy that my family and her family knew about was Juki, because we crossed the threshold and we went to the anatomy scan and we saw him and he moved and he was alive and we got pictures and we told our family after the anatomy scan that she was pregnant.
Speaker 3:So they didn't know about the other two miscarriages, the first two miscarriages.
Speaker 1:They knew nothing about, wow, this pregnancy. They knew nothing about Wow. So it was not just a matter of going to my in-laws and dropping Juki off. It was going to the in-laws, dropping Juki off without giving the impression that anything was wrong, wow, and that we were like she just went to work already and because that would happen from time to time where she had to go to work a little early, so she would go to work first and then I'll drop Juki off at my in-laws. So I had to pretend, like it was one of those type of situations, that I was dropping my son off. So in my mother-in-law's head, michelle was already at work. Michelle was not home in excruciating pain. I knew that. She didn't know that and I couldn't convey that to her because we had approached all of the pregnancies with the understanding that we're not going to say anything. She asked me to not say anything to anybody until it was confirmed, for fear that if it did end up in a miscarriage, that people wouldn't X, y and Z. And here we are again for the third time, and this time it's happening in my house.
Speaker 1:Brozki, I am in this high level of distress. I take my son to my in-laws. When I get to their house, I have to put on a different persona, I have to steal myself, I have to slow down my breathing and I have to decelerate just to be able to go in. Hey, good morning, here's the baby. How's your night? Oh yeah, everything is cool. She's already at work and this, and that, yeah, I'm running a little late, but he got his stuff in the bag, and this, and that I'm going to be the one to come and pick him up later because she has something to do. X, y and Z I'm having a conversation in a way that is not revealing of the horror that I just left at home, all because of the silence around and the fear around. If this thing happens, I don't want people coming into my face from my wife's point of view.
Speaker 1:And so she asked me to not say anything, so not even her own family knew. So once I got through that, I hopped back in the car, came right back home and I walk into the house and she's still on the bathroom floor Amen, I just stood there and all of the feelings that I had left and removed or put to the side just to go and talk to my in-laws is like they were waiting for me and they just overpowered me that much more. Once I walked back into the house and the only thing I could do, my guy was lay on the floor next to my wife and we just started crying. I mean, I just broke down and cried, bro, chris, I cried, man. I don't know if I held her hand or if I touched her, because I didn't even want to touch her, bro, not because I was repulsed by her or anything like that. I just felt like anything that I would do would be intruding, right, like I was afraid to touch her because I didn't know what that would, what kind of response she that would cause her. But I just laid next to her because that was the only thing that I felt like was the right thing to do.
Speaker 1:And I keep emphasizing this feeling, this impulse to want to do something. Because that's what, as a man, as a husband, at that time, that reality of feeling utterly unable to do, physically do anything for my wife high end even more the sense of crisis that I was feeling, emotional crisis that I was feeling Because at that moment, I can't perform in the way that I'm expected to perform for my wife. So am I even being like, what kind of husband am I that I can't do anything for my wife, bro, we're talking about? For me at that moment, it felt like I was in the midst of an identity crisis Because I'm a doer. As a man, I'm a doer. I do things. I bring my wife flowers, I make sure I do the laundry, I make sure I wash the dishes. I make sure I do this Because all of this doing is to convey to her that, hey, we're in this together. This is me showing you how much I love you and appreciate you. It's not about you doing everything by yourself and me just kind of no. I am doing also because I go to work so that I can work and do what I need to do for my family, but now I can't do anything for my family. I can't do anything for her. I couldn't do anything, bro. What could I possibly do? I couldn't do anything. I was helpless. I couldn't provide anything to her. I couldn't protect her either.
Speaker 1:In fact, it was those type of moments, it was that moment right there, that started to make me ask questions like why are you doing this to your wife, like the doing was more of like, why are you harming your wife by continuously getting her pregnant? Why are you doing that to her? So here I am, feeling like I can't do anything, but then the thing that I have been doing has led her to this. What is wrong with you, bro? And at that moment I didn't know how to handle that moment.
Speaker 1:And then the most amazing thing happened In her distress, like I said, my wife was feeling really hot, and so she was on the floor and to be in contact with something cold. So then I guess she needed more air. So then she threw me a lifeline. And she didn't know she threw me a lifeline, bro, but she threw me a lifeline Because here I am with this inability to do anything. And then she said could you go get me the fan that's in the next room? I could do something. Now I can feel helpful now. Now I have a function, now I have a purpose for being here. Like this was my night in shining armor moment. I can rescue my demzel in distress by going to get the stupid fan.
Speaker 1:So I hopped off the ground, I walked into that room with all the pride that I could muster, I grabbed that fan and I plugged it into the wall, bro, as if I was watching my son graduate with high honors from his doctor. I mean, I was so proud of myself for being able to do that for her. And that's what started to open my mind to this concept In those moments. My very identity, our very identity as men, in the way that we've been taught to think about men subconsciously, everything that we've been told from our families, from our society, from media, from church, bro, from everywhere at that moment all of that just seemed like a big fat lie, broski, because I'm not always going to be able to provide and protect for my wife. That's just life, and that can't make me feel like I am any less than a man. But that's exactly what I felt like at that time. I didn't feel like a real man, bro. I don't know what I felt like.
Speaker 1:But whatever I felt like, it didn't feel like I was a real man because I couldn't do anything for her. Until she threw me a lifeline and asked me to do something for her, I couldn't realize that being there with her was enough. It was everything that she needed. And it was only a couple of years after the fact and having this conversation with some other guys who are also lost dads they were the ones to highlight that for me and that conversation happened last year, so it's only recently that I've been able to realize I they're right.
Speaker 1:I was there with her, I laid on the floor with her, I cried with her, and so I didn't need to do anything because I gave myself entirely to her and what she was experiencing at the time and conveying with my body, with my presence, that she was not just like you said to me earlier you're not feeling this alone Like I was able to convey that to her as well.
Speaker 1:At least I hope that's what I conveyed to her.
Speaker 1:So in reflecting of that moment where she asked me to get that fan, the level of satisfaction and purpose that I felt at that time now, retrospectively, is still surprising to me and I think it really hits on this core concept of how you and I see ourselves as men, how I see myself as a man, because one of the fundamental pillars of manhood and masculinity is this emphasis on doing.
Speaker 1:And now think about what that means If you walk that back. Think about, in your experience with Chris, with the pregnancy that you and Amber ended up losing with Randall. Think about all the times in many different ways for you and your experience, people, or whatever, have been playing on this concept of you are the doer, you are the doer, you are the doer. Your job is to support her, like that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to do this, you're supposed to do that, you're supposed to do this and you can't do that because so it's always about doing and doing, and no one has really put emphasis or stoked the flame of the. Sometimes you just gotta be there with her.
Speaker 3:I think people discount how much that actually means, not even just to our spouses or girlfriends or whoever, but how much it means to everyone that we're in a relationship with. As men, like you were saying, in terms of the doing, our doing is categorized as something very physical. It's in a box, it's very physical Even when people say, oh, we want to be able to do this, or women say we want to be able to do that, do that. Hey, the standard is you still gotta be making this much amount of money, you gotta be able to provide this, this, and that those standards still exist and exist heavily. But what you don't realize and again, what you discovered and I hope some other guys that are listening to this or even women that are listening to this also discover is how much being there means because it fulfills something in us mentally, fulfills something in us spiritually, when you are present for very particular moments in that same space. I think about Chris. I get Chris toys and stuff all the time. Like I say it all the time, I'm living my second toy life through my son. But the moments that mean the most to him aren't necessarily when I buy him the toys, it's when I sit down and play with him with the toys. He doesn't want me to miss his performances at school. He's not doing solos or anything. He's singing with the big old choir. Normally it's one song and they all go sit down, but he wants me to be there.
Speaker 3:When it comes to Amber, we've been able to build a great life together and I've been able to take the lead on some cool things. We just had a deck built on the house and I didn't build the deck, but I was like the project manager on the deck. I went, I got the quotes figured out who to have and I set up all the meetings, all the times for the guys to come out and build the deck. All that kind of stuff Felt great, but what was really the moment and what meant the most was sitting with her on the deck, the being there. Because here's the thing if we weren't able to do a deck, if we weren't able to buy a house and all that kind of stuff, the requirement would still be that I'm there. If I wasn't able to buy any toys for Chris, the requirement for him is that I'm still there, that we still play together For Amber. Yeah, we're not able to sit outside on a deck, but maybe we can sit inside on the couch.
Speaker 3:I just need you to be there, and it's not just, of course, fun moments but, like you, experienced moments of crisis. One of our biggest, biggest measures of if someone loves us or not is are you there when I need you the most, when I'm going through crisis, when I feel like the world is about to end, are you with me because I don't want to be alone. And when I say I don't want to be alone, it doesn't mean I want to be in a hospital room with a bunch of doctors everywhere. I want someone that I love with me, because you can be in a place with thousands of people. If you don't know one person, you will feel alone. But out of all those thousand people, if one person is there that you care about or that you know, you will no longer feel alone. So, with what she was going through at that moment, laying on the floor A, for you to even get down on the floor with her meant so much To be there and not just be there but, like you already said, because, like you said, the other guys already told you feeling those emotions with her, allowing yourself in that moment to be vulnerable enough to break down crying in front of her.
Speaker 3:You're there in a moment of crisis when she needed you the most. You were able to do something that she wasn't able to do, something that she wasn't able to fully express. You took care of your child. When she couldn't, you were there. You were able to take him, get him out of that emergency area, because I know from talking to my wife and even talking to my mom, the first thing that pops into mother's minds when things are going wrong, especially for them, is what's going to happen to my kids. You were able to take care of that because you were there, even when you weren't in that physical space with her in the bathroom, because she knew what you were doing, you were still there. You, even for what you had to do, you literally had to separate yourself emotionally, put all of that crisis to the side in order to keep your wife's wishes. You were there. That's what I'm saying. I would argue that it wasn't just the fan, but it was the fact that you were able to take care of her child, take care of her mental space, because she, like you said and Amber has told me this too.
Speaker 3:When it comes to the reasons as to why most women don't want to talk about it or don't want to even tell people they're pregnant, the reason for that three-month mark is because they don't want to deal with the fallout if a miscarriage comes. I get it. We are not bashing that at all, because it makes perfect sense. You protected that for her at the expense of yourself. That means something. You were there. You were a protector in that moment, you were a provider. In that moment, you were a father. You were a husband. When it all was said and done, you didn't run away. You didn't drop the kid off and then keep driving. You came back. You came back and sat in that space with her again. You allowed yourself to come back and sit in that space with her again and open yourself up. That means a lot. That means a lot. That is something that she, of course, will never forget.
Speaker 3:I would dare say that, and obviously I'm not her, I'm not Michelle, I can't fully speak for her. If I had to guess, I would say that for her, those moments were the most manly moments that she's ever experienced from you. That was the most husbandly you would ever been, the most fatherly that you would ever been, because in those moments of crisis, you took care of everything that needed to be taken care of, in spite of what was going on. You did everything that you needed her to do in that moment For her. In that moment, you were, you know, when they said, what is that from we're? Oh, he's a man. In that moment you were a man, you were the husband, you were the father man. You did it, you were 100% successful.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, all of us question because, like you said, of how we're built, of how society has built us, but for those moments and being able to take care of situations like that, that is exactly exactly what people are actually looking for in relationships. So I applaud you for doing everything that needs to be done, and I don't know if you guys have talked about this or how far you've talked about it or whatever, but I would not only bet on it, I would double down that she 100%, 100% appreciates and loves you for everything that you did and that in that moment now, I mean, you guys had already said the I do's and you've already been through some stuff, but for her, that was just another moment that probably solidified. He is the one that was for me, and I think that for us, it's not like I've even processed that for myself, right? Sometimes it takes us hearing those other stories and us sitting back and looking at things from an outside lens to be able to see that, but I think that it applies to all of us.
Speaker 3:You know, for me, like I said, the only thing I could do was hold Amber's hand while she was sitting on that toilet. So only thing that I could do, but, looking back on it, that's what she needed. I was there with her. I didn't run away, I didn't shy away, I didn't try to push it off or anything like that. I was there and I did my best. That's all they can ask. And I think, like I said, I applaud you for doing not just your best man, you went above and beyond man. You did it In that moment. You were the husband, you were the father, like we say, you were him in that moment. So, and again, for all the fathers out there, the in those moments that feel helpless yeah, you're going to feel that way, but just be there. Just be there.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you this in your experience, knowing that you also felt the same way, how did you process through or reconcile that feeling of hopelessness and uselessness at that moment, like what helped you?
Speaker 3:Oh, I have it. I'm processing it right now. As I'm talking to you, I'm talking to myself. I have not processed that at all At all. I have avoided that. I've avoided that in my head like the plague, because that helplessness and that feeling, like you said, in those moments it makes you feel really small, really small. But in talking to you and seeing it, like I said, from an outside angle, and understanding and thinking about just being there and what that actually really does mean, and processing it for myself now, first of all, I kind of want to ask, amber, how did you feel about me? That's kind of a weird starter, right? Just run upstairs as soon as we're done.
Speaker 3:Hey babe, when you were passing the baby, like a big part of them, in a carriage, how would you assess me? Would you give me an A?
Speaker 1:Clearly you were thinking about my performance at that moment, right, yeah?
Speaker 3:I just wanted to know after you put down the grades in your phone like what.
Speaker 3:Sorry for the dark room, but I would want to ask like did I do enough? Was I there for you? Thinking about it, I think I did the right thing. Was there something more I should have done? Now, based on the way that our relationship has gone since then, I think she was happy with what I did. I think that I did what was needed, because I believe that if we didn't do what was right, it would show up in our relationship in some kind of way. I agree with that. Even if we didn't do right and she didn't realize and it was like the subconscious thing that was going on it still would have shown up somewhere in our relationship, somewhere in your relationship. Sometimes we pop it off out of nowhere and you would be able to tell that she doesn't trust you anymore and that Amber doesn't trust me anymore in crisis situations. Since that has not been the case, I would and that's why I was saying I'll double down. I believe we did, in our situations, exactly what was right, because our people trust us.
Speaker 1:They trust us with their lives, they trust us with the lives of their children, that's saying a lot, and I think what you're talking about too is also there are the intangibles in any given relationship. There's power dynamics, there's relational dynamics. There are all of these things that you can't quantify because you can't really see them, but in any relationship relationship, in any relationship relationship, there, the way that we communicate is not just verbally, but there's all of this nonverbal and all of this abstract things that are happening at all times, that make me, like you said, either trust you or distrust you and relationships deepen or they remain surface level, depending on these abstract dynamics and how they're formed or how they're severed or and all of that stuff. And it is such and this is obviously looking back retrospectively at that moment, kelly from the future, kelly from the present now, could have gone to Kelly of the past at that moment to be like hey, by the way, you laying on the floor with her is actually building and deepening your relationships, and Kelly from the past Would have probably kicked Kelly from the present in the throat.
Speaker 1:Yep, like that's again. I'm back to the kicking of the throat thing. I'm so sorry, I have a violent person.
Speaker 3:Hey, it's necessary some time, yeah, so anyway.
Speaker 1:So so there's, you know so, so there's that, but we had spoken about this or started to talk about this before. Here is a an opportunity that I'm now realizing again, after the fact that I want to bring up again for Men who perhaps have not yet done this or who are struggling to do this that emotional vulnerability, yes, in front of your person, because it's one thing for me to process my emotions, and I think there's value in processing and breaking down and and you know, outside of that person, right outside of my wife, I can call you up Yo, chris, this is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling, this is what it is, and there's value in that. She doesn't need to know about it, right right, she doesn't need to know about it. There's also value and Having a similar version of that with my person.
Speaker 1:Yeah with my wife. Yep, not so much just for me, but I think it functions in terms of whatever I Think, because the the woman Experiences it, and her body. She also knows that her partner, her male partner, does not experience it in his body. She knows that and I think I know all of us in Society, whether we buy into these assumptions or not, there are times when we, our behaviors, are based off of those assumptions and our Assumptions are based off of those assumptions. Yeah so, yeah, maybe she's wondering does he care as much as I care? Because he doesn't have a physical Connection to this experience, and so I think there's value in opening up, breaking down, even Emotionally, in front of my wife, like I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah right by crying with her on the floor Because in some way, shape of forming these in this abstract way, I think it communicates to her he can't. He actually cares as much as I care. Yeah, it actually hurts him as much as it hurts me, and this is not one of those cases of misery. Loves company as much as it is, man, I just want to know that you're also with me. Mm-hmm in this.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, and so, if I know that You're hurting as much as I'm hurting, it really opens up and frees people up to be able to have these deeply intimate, raw conversations and, starting from the from, from the Point of view of, we both care deeply about what's going on here. I'm no longer assuming, I'm no longer Questioning, I'm no longer wondering oh man, does, does she care? Does, does, does he really care? Are they really going to understand what I'm saying right now? Right, going back to to what you said to me a little while ago, you don't even need to say anything else because I understand what you're going through, I understand where you're coming from. Right Like this is what this level of empathy, yes.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:I hear it is Mm-hmm. I understand that your experience is different than mine. Mm-hmm but at that moment we're not gonna be comparing apples and oranges. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:What we're going to be, what we find as the common ground. Man, you cried also, and you're, you're crying. Your level of emotional distress, mm-hmm, is no different than my own. Yeah, and and, and. Once we start there, man, I think it is it can be so fruitful for Couples who have gone through this yes, whether they're still together or not to be able to approach it from that perspective.
Speaker 1:And I understand the men like us who at some point, feel like or felt like, I Can't cry in front of my wife, I can't have that level of emotional vulnerability In front of her. A because I have to be a rock Be, because I don't want to feel like. I don't want her to feel like she now has to take care of me. I Don't want to have to. I don't want to make her feel like I'm adding more to her plate, right?
Speaker 1:So it all goes back to these Deeply rooted assumptions I'm the lone ranger, so it's okay for me to take care of her, but I don't want her to feel like she has to take care of me, right, right, opening myself up to also be cared for by her Wow, I'm also taking care of her is Such a beautiful thing, bro. It could be a powerful thing. Yeah, it is an incredibly, incredibly difficult thing, like there's no, there's no denying that man, there's no denying that, yeah, no one wants to be, you know, vulnerable like that, but it's not a matter of wanting as much as it is. This is what this experience, this is where this experience Brings you to and can bring you to if you allow it to, and so I think it's a hugely missed opportunity for guys who who want to be reserved and who want to to hide Behind this concept of no, I need to be her rock, I need to be her pillar, but not allow her the Opportunity to also care for, for him to care for me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Man, okay, so before we go, yeah. I Wanted to say something, because we were talking about opportunities a lot of the feelings and things and confusion that happens During the passing of the miscarriage right, which we officially is an abortion, which is a whole different discussion. People don't realize that passing a child or having that DNC is an abortion. So you know, that's another conversation for another day. But when the when you're passing the child, no one talks about that. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:And that is an opportunity for if there are any medical professionals that ever listen to this, or people that are close to medical professionals or Obes that are working, please Tell them, or you or whatever, tell your patients what is going to happen.
Speaker 1:A lot of give them an idea. Yes, just a Basic. You know I was talking. I don't want to cut you off, so don't forget what you do. Yeah, you're good. I was having this conversation with a, with a doula, and she said and she had a miscarriage herself. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And she said what her doctor told her was that it was going to be like a really bad period and then when she went through the experience, she was like it was nothing. No, I can really bad. In fact, the day that it was happening, her husband was getting ready to go out and play golf. Mm-hmm. And so when she was like where are you going? Mm-hmm. To him. It was like well, you know, it was just gonna be like a really bad at period.
Speaker 1:So you've had bad periods before and Like you're okay, you know what I mean. So, even even in, if you're trying to to draw some comparison, make it a worthwhile comparison. You can't be as lazy as it's gonna be like a really bad period and I don't think you and I are asking cuz, cuz. I'm with you 100%. I don't think we're asking for anyone to sit there and describe in detail like this is exactly what's going to happen, because everyone's experience is different. Mm-hmm, but don't be, don't, don't be, don't sugarcoat it either. Oh, right.
Speaker 3:You know, the closest thing that I can think of is Childbirth. It's gonna feel like you're having a child. The labor, the pains, all of that. The blood that comes is gonna be. There's gonna be a lot. It's going to be very painful. It's going to feel like you are having a child.
Speaker 3:Hmm, if you don't know what to say as a doctor or healthcare professional, get a pamphlet. Hand them the pamphlet. Say read through this, because you need to know what could happen, because, again, whether you're getting the procedure done or not, like the doctor told you, okay, the procedure is scheduled for this day. It could happen between there. So here is what you need to be prepared for, even helpful tips. You don't know when it's going to happen. Make sure that, wherever you go, wherever you are, carry with you some Some extra paper towels, or towels themselves. Make sure that you, during this time, are not by yourself, because you don't, again, know exactly when it's going to happen. Do your best to limit your travel. You don't want this to happen while you're at work or at the grocery store or something like that. At the least, you want to be able to be at home. These are things that should be said, because this is not a normal situation. Mm-hmm, like for Amber, should they even tell her anything Like this? Did they say, oh, do you want the procedure, do you want to pass the baby normally? She was like, okay, I'll just pass the baby normally. Not even she didn't even get though. Oh, it's like a bad period, you know, we didn't know what to expect in terms of passing the baby, so much so that we weren't a hundred percent sure if that's what was happening at the moment. We had to deduce that on our own. Wow. So, and again, it will not necessarily. It can curb that the feeling of helplessness is not going to help a hundred percent, but it can at least erase the confusion, because the confusion is a big part of it. It's a whirlwind. You don't know what's happening, you don't know if your wife is dying or what is going on. So, again, this is something that needs to be fixed.
Speaker 3:And I don't know how many times we have brought up what happens in the medical field on this, and I know we're probably going to bring it up a few times more, because there are so many missteps and so many different things that just just lack of care that happens, and by lack of care. I don't mean just lack of customer service service, but a literal lack of human care that can happen during these times. These things shouldn't even just be considered, they need to be done. They need to be done because you are saving people From traumatizing experiences. It's already a traumatic experience, but to allow people to go into this blindly, I'd never. I'd never heard of this happening before, never heard of it. So I really do hope that, even for people that might be listening to this podcast, that don't have children because that happens all the time People just want to want to learn about something. Listen to a podcast.
Speaker 3:The things that we are describing are very real and and could very well happen. But again, to our, to our, our medical people that are out there, please, please, take these things to heart and please take that opportunity to describe what's going on and Tell them, tell those parents, exactly what could take place, because, again, it will save a lot of confusion, a lot of fear, and At least curb some of that helplessness, because, yes, we felt helpless, as men most definitely, but I know even the women that were going through there's a helpless feeling because they can't control what's happening to their body. So I'm just I, I plead, I'm begging for all the metal professionals out there please, please, start giving more information, start giving more care with these kinds of things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this is a good place to stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we still got one more to go, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, but I think I think this is a good place to stop. I I can't thank you enough, bro, for just the support that you've Shown and thrown my way during the retelling of this experience, and you know it sucks that we didn't even have to talk about it and as much detail as we did to know what it's like because we've both been through it. On the other hand, there is a strange sense of camaraderie and the strange sense of Brotherhood and bond when you're able to have this level of really intimate, vulnerable conversation With someone who you don't have to Give all of the details to and try to frame things and make things make sense to them, because they've also gone through it. So it's a bullfand and, like you alluded to earlier, anyone who is watching or listening to this and you've also gone through that particular Experience or anything along those lines Heck worse than what we've gone through. You know that you are part of an unfortunate brotherhood and Two of your brothers are here making ourselves Available to support you, to hear you out, to help you process in whatever way we can.
Speaker 1:So feel free to follow our Instagram account, the miscarriage dad. You can send us an email at the miscarriage dad at gmailcom and, obviously, subscribe to this podcast if you find value in this content, and we would love to to hear from you, just to connect and and support one another. So Thank you for all of you who continue to listen and engage with this content and for all of your encouraging words, for sharing it with the people that you've shared it with. We are so appreciative of that and our hope is that these conversations can Generate change and changes in important places where dads like Chris and I have been and will continue to go in our quest of, you know, having a family. Not our quest, because I think we're done, but as representatives of other men who Will start this journey to begin to, to have their own family and try to grow their family.
Speaker 3:So Any parting words, chris now, man, I just thank you for sharing, Because that was a hard one to share, man. So thank you for doing that. And same thing like subscribe, share all that you.