Navigating Father’s Day after experiencing a miscarriage is a journey fraught with complex emotions. Imagine the heartache of balancing the joy of being a present father with the sorrow of losing a child, or the agony of wishing someone a "Happy Father's Day" as you're struggling to become a father. Chris and I share our stories, contrasting the grief we felt before and after welcoming our living children. We provide a candid look at the struggle of facing Father’s Day, hoping to normalize these feelings and offer a supportive space for other dads in similar situations.
The episode doesn't shy away from the feeling of emptiness and fraudulence that can accompany a miscarriage, particularly on days meant for celebration. We discuss how societal expectations of happiness often clash with personal grief, leading to feelings of guilt and helplessness. One father’s story of losing his newborn to an unforeseen infection highlights the innate responsibility fathers feel to protect their children, and the heartbreak when they cannot, despite their best efforts. Our conversation underscores the importance of acknowledging and validating these emotions.
We close with an emphasis on the enduring aspects of fatherhood that persist even in the absence of a child. Through heartfelt anecdotes, we explore love, memories, and dreams tied to our lost children, and encourage grieving fathers to honor their memories. Healing is a personal journey, and it’s essential to recognize that despite the physical absence, the bond between a father and his child remains unbroken. Join us as we validate these emotions and affirm the lasting connection shared with our children, living or not.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely, Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com Make sure you subscribe! Write us a review!
Navigating Father’s Day after experiencing a miscarriage is a journey fraught with complex emotions. Imagine the heartache of balancing the joy of being a present father with the sorrow of losing a child, or the agony of wishing someone a "Happy Father's Day" as you're struggling to become a father. Chris and I share our stories, contrasting the grief we felt before and after welcoming our living children. We provide a candid look at the struggle of facing Father’s Day, hoping to normalize these feelings and offer a supportive space for other dads in similar situations.
The episode doesn't shy away from the feeling of emptiness and fraudulence that can accompany a miscarriage, particularly on days meant for celebration. We discuss how societal expectations of happiness often clash with personal grief, leading to feelings of guilt and helplessness. One father’s story of losing his newborn to an unforeseen infection highlights the innate responsibility fathers feel to protect their children, and the heartbreak when they cannot, despite their best efforts. Our conversation underscores the importance of acknowledging and validating these emotions.
We close with an emphasis on the enduring aspects of fatherhood that persist even in the absence of a child. Through heartfelt anecdotes, we explore love, memories, and dreams tied to our lost children, and encourage grieving fathers to honor their memories. Healing is a personal journey, and it’s essential to recognize that despite the physical absence, the bond between a father and his child remains unbroken. Join us as we validate these emotions and affirm the lasting connection shared with our children, living or not.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely, Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com Make sure you subscribe! Write us a review!
Speaker 1:
The reason that I tell myself that is because I'm not so much worried about everyone else not confirming or affirming that I'm a father of three.
Speaker 3:
I'm more worried about me not affirming me this is the miscarriage dad's podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing, dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I am here with my brother Chris how you doing?
Speaker 1:
How's everything going, man? I'm tired, man, I'm tired. I know we were talking about just a little bit before, yeah, but, man, I don't know what's going on just in the world right now, man. But I'm sure a lot of people are feeling it too, and I am. I'm just tired, man, I'm just tired.
Speaker 3:
Our conversation today is in light of Father's Day. I think there isn't much. I don't think you and I have spoken about it, and I don't think that there is much consideration for Father's Day or, quite honestly, those type of celebrations where, as a lost parent and particularly in this case, father's Day, right a day where you and I get celebrated as fathers very difficult to find your footing, to find your place in that day, when you're still dealing with the loss of a baby, when you're still grieving your miscarriage. So, very quick story Mother's Day was last month and there's a friend of mine, not a friend of mind, there's a friend of mine.
Speaker 1:
It's the tired man. It's the tired snatching words right out your mouth. You see that? And then sneakily putting in other ones. That's what it does, man.
Speaker 3:
That's what it does friend of mine who her and her husband they are. They are in the struggle to become parents and they have opened up to me and my wife and have shared you know what their struggles have been, what their journey has been, and so we've been there to kind of support them and so I'm very thankful that they trust us enough to you know, open up about that, that part of their, their marriage and their story and their journey. But recently at an event she was asked to do something at a Mother's Day event. She was asked to do something on Mother's Day. So Mother's Day was being celebrated and she was asked to stand up in front of a group of people and like give a welcome and give out gifts to other mothers and stuff like that. All the while she was just she's been struggling to become a mother and all of those feelings, as you can imagine, just weighing on her and afterwards she thought she was okay and then she wasn't.
Speaker 3:
So when she was telling me about that experience it made me realize that you know it's easy for me and you right now, as we speak, to not even think twice about father's day because we have the benefit of having living children. But I want to invite us to go back to that time when we celebrated father's day or when we came closer to father's day without having children. And I know your situation is different because your miscarriage experience happened after little Chris. I had two that took place before Juki. So I think it's good that we're able to speak from both sides of this fence, if you will. Yeah, father's Day without having any children, but definitely experiencing without having any living children, but definitely experiencing a loss or losses. And also Father's Day although having a living child or living children, and then, on top of that, experiencing a loss. So where do you want to start first?
Speaker 1:
I can start first. I guess we can kind of go, you know, just go back and forth real quick. Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, I, when we had our miscarriage that it was. It was in the spring, so summer, you know came right up after that and we were supposed to have the baby in November. So not even having reached that point was tough, especially when Father's Day came around, because it was just like man, it's nice that I have my firstborn, my son, but I should also be looking forward to having another one.
Speaker 1:
Um, amber would have been, you know, a few more months pregnant, you know, again, not necessarily super close to the date, but still that anticipation, that dreaming, all that kind of stuff is still there, um, and it was still kind of new, you know. So, those fresh memories of what happened and everything, there's everything, they're still there. So there's a lot of things that are kind of swirling around in your head on that day. It is difficult because you want to be present, right, you want to be present with your wife, who was there, and your child, who was there, but in the back of your mind it still sits that man, his father's day is different because I should be a father of one, almost in your brain, one and a half.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, right Cause the other ones not here yet.
Speaker 1:
They still in the oven, they still cooking, you know, um, but um, that was gone. That was gone. I think too, mother's day kind of played into it a little bit as well. I just remember how, just because Mother's Day comes up before Father's Day, and I remembered how difficult it was for Amber seeing her on Mother's Day, and so the anticipation of feeling bad kind of builds up a little bit, and I think that's kind of a part of it is you don't look at Father's Day the same anymore, because for me I never really thought about it like that At this point.
Speaker 1:
Chris was three or four, so I already had a few Father's Days as it was. So Father's Day just comes up, normally it surprises me and then it goes. But this time I know when Father's Day is coming up. I'm thinking about when Father's Day is coming up, so there's also the dread of that day coming, and then it comes, you know. So that also kind of makes it difficult, because now you're focused on it and now you're worried about feeling sad. And it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy, because you're so anxious and depressed about feeling sad that you end up feeling sad, Do you?
Speaker 3:
remember at all what it felt like leading up to Father's Day. Do you remember what kind of thoughts or what kind of feelings were you? Were you housing inside of you? Were you anxious? Were you looking forward to being told happy Father's Day, even though you had three or four previous Father's Days where, of course, you were happy? You were a dad, your child is fine and well and dandy, and you had no reason to think otherwise, so of course it would be a happy occasion. But now there's something different, right, there's this experience that happened, and so I guess my main question is how did the word happy land for you after you had the miscarriage experience during that subsequent Father's Day?
Speaker 1:
Man, you know what? I never thought about, that. I never thought about what that word meant to me that day. And you're right, it was weird getting cards and getting phone calls and hearing Happy Father's Day, man. I never thought about that, you're right, because it didn't necessarily feel happy and I never really thought about how even the use of those words might have affected me that day.
Speaker 1:
And not to say that people that would say were insensitive or something like that, why wouldn't they say it? First of all, everyone didn't know, right, okay, okay, right. So at that point my church didn't know, and of course I get a card from the church. There were other family members that were around that really didn't know, it was just my immediate family. And even when they would say Happy Father's Day, I still got a little bit of like hey, I know, this one's a little different, but you know and again, not blaming anyone for like, being insensitive or something like that, no, I felt like they were treating me the best they could. You know, I'm one of the fortunate ones that didn't have people that said the wrong thing or the weird thing For the most part, and this has really been my experience the whole time.
Speaker 1:
People don't normally bring it up, which I appreciate, because that tells me people probably don't really know what to say about this kind of stuff. You know, especially on my side of the family, where this isn't something that has really been experienced, especially like by my parents, um, but just even watching commercials and all that kind of stuff, I think when you go through something like this, you start looking at all the angles and for the first time in my life I realized how everyone else must feel, people that have lost children, whether it's through miscarriage, stillbirth, when they're older, whatever. When you lose a child, even if you have more, and those days that celebrate the action of being a parent, comes around, it hurts. It hurts. And I know for me and I think this is something I should say too, just about me personally I don't process things. I guess it's just a defense mechanism or something like that, and that's why I think, hey, well is because I don't fully understand what's happening and I know that I'm feeling things. I just don't know what those feelings are.
Speaker 1:
So being able to look back on those days, especially again leading up to Father's Day, and that feeling of I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this, but still, as someone who suppresses their emotions, kind of pushing this down and putting it in the back of my mind, in the back of my heart, not really thinking about it. But it's this ever present annoying thing that's getting ready to come up and then the day comes and then it's just kind of in your face. You know. Yeah, I don't even remember what we did on that father's day, to be honest Now. Now, let's be honest about father's day, all right?
Speaker 3:
Yep, let's be honest about father's day it's not on the same scale as mother's day. No, not at all, not at all. No, not at all, not at all the world doesn't seem to stop, just like it does for Mother's.
Speaker 1:
Day.
Speaker 3:
Nope.
Speaker 1:
Nope, normally what happens is on Mother's Day, we do whatever the moms want to do, yep. And then on Father's Day, we do whatever the moms want to do, yep.
Speaker 3:
I had a buddy that just told me listen and he said this is a pro tip. He said, even on Father's Day day, buy your wife flowers.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and I'm like, okay, pro tip and it is what it is, man, you know it. Just, hey, you know, whatever, we wouldn't be loving husbands and and good fathers if this was like a major concern to us, you know. But you know it's just for the first time that I even focus on Father's Day in any kind of way. You don't want it to be. You're focusing on it because you've lost your child. You know you don't want the first Father's Day that is on your radar coming up to be one where it's like, man, I lost a baby.
Speaker 1:
You know that hurts, that hurts, it really does, it really does. And, man, to be honest, it does sting to this day, not as much, of course, this Father's Day, I know, for for me is a little bit different, because now I have two kids. However, that's still like, it's still in my brain, because this is something I say to myself I am a father of three, you know, um, and to not have that, that third child there, father's day is never going to be the same. It's never going to be the same it's never, going to be the same.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, you know, I think now for me, I just try to. I try to love my kids as much as I can, you know, because I don't know what the future brings and I don't know how much time that I have with them on both ends of it, whether it means I'm going to pass away first or one of them, I don't know, I don't know, and I try to make sure that I'm loving them as much as I can and, like I said, father's Day becomes something completely different now, at least for me, something completely different.
Speaker 3:
You know, I don't remember what the first Father's Day after the first miscarriage, or even the second one, was like. I truly don't what I, at least not in its totality. What I do remember is I think we had spoken about this when Michelle told me that she was pregnant the first time, it was through a onesie. Right, she gave me this onesie and I was sleeping with that onesie under my pillow, like that. That onesie was my, it was like a comfort thing for me, you know, sort of like how kids have blankies or a teddy bear. That onesie was kind of like that for me. And I remember this part when that first Father's Day came and went, I felt so empty. I almost felt like a fraud. Fraud, you know, like there was this, there was this expectation and anticipation leading right up to the moment of the miscarriage and right after that there was nothing else. And so what was I? Who was I, you know? Was it still valid for me to see myself as a father? What could I show for it? You know what I mean. Like what do I have to show for it? The stupid onesie. Now, you know, like I felt like such a fraud, bro, I felt. I felt so disoriented, I felt empty, I felt out disoriented, I felt empty, I felt out of place. I tried as much as possible to just treat it like another day, but it obviously was not just another day. And then it was just another day, you know, it was all, absolutely everything had changed. I thought for sure, and if I remember correctly you know now I'm smacking myself because I don't remember the month that before Father's Day of that same year, or did I have to wait almost an entire calendar year later before you know the next? So I don't remember like the chronology in that sense, but I certainly do remember just feeling like a total fraud, or not even. Or I felt like a fraud and I felt out of place and I felt empty. I felt like, can we just hurry up these next 24 hours? I don't remember what it felt like to read on social media or to watch on television the advertisements or the posts about happy father's day, but I'm always.
Speaker 3:
You know, especially now I'm thinking in english we really just start every type of holiday celebration with the same word happy, right, yeah. Or except for christmas, it's merry christmas, but mary still carries the same word happy, right, yeah. Or except for Christmas. It's Merry Christmas, but merry still carries the same sentiment as happy. We might as well say happy, yeah, but it's, you know, happy birthday. Happy 4th of July, you know. There's the weird one where it's like do you say happy Memorial Day, you know. Do you say happy Veterans Day? Right, you know. But if it's a holiday or if it's a day commemorating something, it usually begins with happy. So how does that land for fathers who have experienced a loss, you know, like the Father's Day immediately after the loss? How does that word land? How does that day land? You know what I mean. Am I supposed to be happy? Right, and if I can, it's something that you are expressing in the guilt, like am I supposed to be happy?
Speaker 1:
Right, go ahead. And, if I can, it's something that you are expressing in the guilt, feeling like a fraud. You know, on Father's Day, and I think it should be understood that as men and I don't mean in some kind of weird male chauvinistic thing, it's just a man thing, I don't know how to explain it that we feel very responsible for the safety of our children, whether it is in the womb or out of the womb. It's just a natural thing. I don't know what it is Call it second nature.
Speaker 1:
Yeah right, I mean because of, of course, women are overly protective over their kids too, but as a man, it's just as a father like I want my children to feel safe because I'm keeping them safe. Yes, you know, that's a fact. Um, so when you go part of the, the difficulty of going through a miscarriage or stillbirth or anything losing a child as a father, is the feeling of I don't deserve this title because I didn't do my job.
Speaker 3:
Oh, dude, you are speaking. You are dropping bars right now, homie.
Speaker 1:
Man, it's real life, man. Even your dog agrees bro my dog said bars bars.
Speaker 3:
My dog said bars, bars, that listen, man. Your dog understood what you said, bro, because right, that bark, those barks were perfectly timed, man. He was like oh, ralph bro, yes, oh yes, human, yes, yes, human, yes.
Speaker 1:
But no, but it's the truth, man, it's the truth, oh, 100%, you know, it's just who we are, man.
Speaker 3:
You know. So I remember being, you know, supporting this family and talking to this dad and leaning on our conversations on the podcast to help support him in that moment. And I'll never forget what he said to me, bro. He was like, well, he wasn't saying that to me, he was saying that to his son, the baby, and he said I tried everything I could and I just couldn't protect you and, chris, it's not like the baby was dying because of anything that he did or didn't do, like he did everything that he needed to do, right, and I remember him talking about you know, I cleaned the house. I think he even installed like an air purifier. I mean, bro, he made sure that his home was the safest possible environment for his baby.
Speaker 3:
And then, after I think the baby was, I think the baby was less than two weeks, so the baby spent the first week of his life fine, and then something happened, like an infection or something like that, and then the infection spread and then it was just game over. It was game over Like they couldn't do anything. And it wasn't anything that mom did, that dad did, that anybody did or didn't do. You know what I mean? Uh, so you're, bro, you are so spot on because, as you, as you were saying that this story just and I don't remember the guy's face, but I almost feel like I'm standing in his presence right now because you teleported me right back to that experience Wow, just him saying those words, and I remember being moved and deeply impacted by those words, like holy smokes, man, you didn't.
Speaker 3:
I wanted to say that to him. I wanted to say, well, you didn't do anything wrong, but that's where he was Right, you know what I mean? That that's where he was, and so, whether or not I said it, it wouldn't have meant anything, because at that moment, that man was feeling like he let himself down. He let his family down. He certainly left his son, let his son down, which couldn't be further from the truth, bro, couldn't be, yeah.
Speaker 1:
Couldn't be further from the truth, bro. Couldn't be, yeah, couldn't be, but it doesn't matter. You know it doesn't matter. Yeah, you know yeah. I mean, and what made me think about it was just when you were saying like, hey, man, I felt like a fraud. There was no reason to feel like a fraud. You were a father.
Speaker 3:
You did everything you could do. So that's the thing. Father's Day, often, often what am I talking about? Father's Day always is celebrated from the perspective of the father who has living children. Yeah, but you and I let's just make the point very clearly you and I are in agreement that, even though you experience a miscarriage as a man and you don't have the tangible proof of a living child, that will make it easier for you to consider yourself a father. You are still a father. I mean, that's something that you've said throughout our entire podcast journey together. The moment you find out that you're going to be a father, you are a father. That's something that you say explicitly, say explicitly.
Speaker 3:
So what would Father's Day look like for someone who has experienced a miscarriage and doesn't have any tangible proof and by tangible proof, that's just a long-winded way of saying doesn't have a living child? Yeah, what would have. What could it look like? Right? So we're, we're acknowledging the pain, we're acknowledging the, the difficulty. Even, like dude, may not even want to wake up you know what I mean May not even want to get out of bed, may not even want to get on social media or whatever the case is. So all those things on the table. What do you think it could look like? How do you think someone who's experiencing a loss and then headed into the Father's Day right after can still find something within that celebratory 24 hours to? Yeah, I don't even know what the question that I'm trying to ask is, but but I think no, I feel you, yeah okay, yeah, I feel you, um, I would say this and I'll explain fight for your child.
Speaker 1:
Now, I know that doesn't make any kind of sense, but hear me out. The reason that I keep saying that that I am a father of three, that you, kelly, are still a father of the four that you lost Still a father, that makes you a father of what four that you lost still a father, that makes you a father, what six six bro.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, I got a five and a six man. Yeah, that's right. Full team right there. Man, no, but you fight for that. The reason that I tell myself that is because I'm not so much worried about everyone else not confirming or affirming that I'm a father of three. I'm more worried about me not affirming me, and I say it to remind myself that that was my child, that was legitimate, and while I did everything that I could then and there's no proof I don't even have a, a sonogram to go off of all I have is my memories and my willingness to keep on fighting for the fact that that was my child and that I was a father. You know that I am and see, I keep trying to correct myself, that I am a father.
Speaker 1:
It doesn't stop because your child is gone.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was going to call you out on that, but I'm glad you called yourself.
Speaker 1:
Appreciate it, hope that's called accountability. Right there, that's what that is. I appreciate it. That's called accountability, father again, because even though you can't protect the life of your child anymore, you can protect the memory of your child. And I know, for me, I will not allow myself to write it off, to somehow discount the love that I felt and the emotions that I felt just because my child is not with me now. No, that baby was real. Even though the pregnancy didn't last very long, it was real, and the love that I have for that baby is real. And so I will fight to keep that memory alive and I will fight to keep that love alive.
Speaker 1:
And for those of you who are looked upon as not being fathers, fight it, fight it. If you have to fight yourself, fight yourself. If you have to fight others, fight others. That's what we do. We're fathers, and I know, for me, when it comes to Father's Day, that is something now that I try to continue to focus on is no, I am a father of three. My child existed and will continue to exist as long as I fight for their life.
Speaker 3:
Man beautifully said. Chris, If we're looking to affirm whether or not we are fathers because of the living children that we have right or the tangible proof the living children that we have right or the tangible proof in this realm of miscarriage and loss, that doesn't leave us with anything tangible we have to change the rules of the game so that we can better cope with and better understand how we can respond to our situation and how we can respond to our circumstances. And you're absolutely right, my guy. So then, in this abstract, non-physical, non-tangible sense, what is the proof? What can I show as proof, if you will like? If there was a? Are you a father police right? If there was, if there was some type of like if there was some type of organization out there, who?
Speaker 3:
who wants to check your fatherhood credibility. But you've experienced loss to miscarriage. What can you present when you don't have a sonogram, when you don't have, you know, some type of ultrasound picture, when you don't have a physical, tangible child, when you don't have anything really, because, again, the miscarriage just happens so early in the pregnancy that you haven't even had a chance to start buying stuff for your kid yet. Yeah, you know what I mean. So you really don't have anything to show tangibly and to say this is or this was for said baby. Yeah, but you do have, like you said, the love inside your heart. You do have that excitement of knowing about their existence in the form that you knew of it the first time. You do have, as one of our former guests mentioned, you do have that light that turns on in that dark room. Like you have those things.
Speaker 3:
We've spoken about this before. You have that part of you that awakens. It's almost like there's multiple versions of you walking about, but the moment you hear the words I am pregnant, this part of you just becomes so real and it's like, oh hey, I've been here this whole time. I was just looking for you to catch up and meet me. You know what I mean, like you have those things.
Speaker 3:
You have the dreams and none of those things are physical. None of those things are tangible, but not tangible to our five senses, that we've spoken before, but absolutely tangible in the abstract way, because these are things that you felt, the memory of your child, because you want to allow yourself to convince yourself that all of that was not real. Yeah, you won't allow yourself to to pretend as if the only thing that justifies a, a father, is his ability to have a living child. And bro, your dog needs to start barking right now, okay, just like standing ovation or standing barkation, I don't know whatever. Man beautifully said. My guy beautifully said thanks. Man beautifully said man, like I don't, I don't think, I don't think nothing else needs to be said.
Speaker 3:
Chris, I I really think we could end the conversation right there, because that's that's what that's what this conversation is for. Yeah, if, if we could distill what we are saying in this conversation is just that these last, you know, 10 minutes of the conversation is just that you are a dad and it doesn't look the same way as anybody else around you who is a father and you can see them with their living children. It doesn't look the same way and it hurts that it doesn't look the same way, and it hurts that it doesn't look the same way, and this is not to say that theirs is better or they're in a better situation than yours. There is no better, there is no worse. Because you are both fathers. Your circumstances just look different. Yeah, fathers, your circumstances just look different, yeah, and you want so desperately for your circumstance to look like that guy. And no judgments here, because I was there, chris, you were there, yeah, so we're not. This is no judgment on listen, man, you're like your perspectiveness to change or you're jealous. It means none of that.
Speaker 3:
If you're jealous, be jealous. You have the right to be jealous. You are in your right to be jealous. You are in your right to look across and to see that dad on Father's Day with his child or with his children, and they're hugging up on him and they're loving on him. And the thought is crossing your mind like I want that, and you feel jealous, be jealous. Why wouldn't you want that? It hurts you because you thought you were going to have that Mm, hmm, and then, without any rhyme, without any reason, all of a sudden, all of that was taken away from you.
Speaker 3:
Hell, yeah, yeah. Be mad, be jealous, hell yeah, it doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you anything. What it makes you is someone who is hurting. That's what it makes you and in your pain, you are absolutely justified to feel however you feel. For however long you feel that way, allow the perspective that Chris and I are putting on the table to accompany you along the way. You, in your current state, empty handed as you are, you are a father and you will be a father Even if you never have a living child. You are a father. I sound like maury right now. You are worst place for humor right now. Okay, I'm trying to be serious here, but I just couldn't hold myself maury had a point.
Speaker 1:
He had a point. He was trying to drive it home. You are the father. We thought it was about the test.
Speaker 3:
No, it wasn't about the test that was so bad man it's all good, man.
Speaker 1:
Listen man. We gotta put a little bit of humor in this somewhere. Man, it's all good. I think everyone listening to this is going to understand. You know what? This is one of those times where you're part of a particular group that can make particular jokes. If you're not in this miscarriage, you can't be making these jokes.
Speaker 3:
We can make the jokes.
Speaker 1:
Don't you dare make a joke Right, nah, but us in this circle we got it.
Speaker 3:
We got it. Yeah, yeah, but seriously, man, that thank you for saying what you said, because that's what it's all about, right there.
Speaker 3:
And so to all the dads who have experienced a loss of a child by miscarriage, stillbirth, neonatal birth, we see you, we see your pain, we see your grief, we acknowledge it. We're not trying to get you out of your pain. We're not trying to get you out of your grief. We're not trying to tell you that it's all going to be okay at the moment. At the moment, it doesn't feel that way and it doesn't have to feel that way right now. In time, you will get to where you need to get as your journey unfolds. But just remember, this perspective that we have placed in this conversation is right alongside you, and we're inviting you, as you're considering all things, to consider this also. Your empty hands does not mean that you have an empty heart. Your child is fully present in your heart, in your mind, and it hurts so much because they're there and you want them to be outside, but they're inside and fight for the memory of your child. Thank you, thank you, thanks for watching.
