E24: Healing Together & Resources For Pregnancy Loss (ft. Patrick & Kristen Riecke)

Welcome to episode 24!

Kristen and Patrick Riecke, authors and bereavement consultants, share their personal journey through loss and their mission to support others facing similar experiences. In October 2000, they endured the loss of their son, Stephen Daniel, due to a second-trimester miscarriage. Since then, they have dedicated their lives to walking alongside hundreds of other loss parents, offering empathy and practical guidance.
Their story challenges the conventional terms like "stuck" and "move on," advocating instead for the integration of Stephen's memory into their daily lives. Together, they authored the book "No Matter How Small: Understanding Miscarriage and Stillbirth," providing a beacon of practical advice and comfort for others navigating similar heartaches.

Patrick brings a much-needed perspective to the conversation, shedding light on the silent struggles men face in expressing grief. Using poignant anecdotes, he reveals the generational silence that often surrounds men's suffering after miscarriage and stillbirth. We discuss the importance of breaking these barriers and creating spaces where men feel safe to share their pain. Their experiences, both shocking and transformative, have led the couple to become advocates in healthcare spaces dedicated to supporting others through similar losses.

To further support grieving families, Kristen has compiled an extensive list of resources available on her website. From fiction books to podcasts, they offer diverse ways to engage with the topic of miscarriage and stillbirth. This episode underscores the necessity for comprehensive support systems for both parents, aligning with historical shifts in childbirth practices, and emphasizes the role of digital advancements in making help more accessible. Join us to gain insights and find comfort through the wisdom and experiences shared by Kristen and Patrick Riecke. Whether you are navigating your own grief journey or supporting others, this episode offers valuable perspectives and resources.

To connect with Kristen and Patrick

• Kristen Instagram: @nomatterhowsmallbook
• No Matter How Small Facebook: Kristen Riecke NMHS Book
• Kristen LinkedIn: Kristen Riecke
• Patrick LinkedIn: Patrick Riecke
• YouTube: Patrick Riecke

Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris

Instagram: @themiscarriagedad
Email: themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

The language that the world usually uses and you hear this on every movie. When somebody dies and somebody's going through grief, we talk about either being stuck in grief we use that word, we love the word stuck they're just stuck there and they can't get over it or we use the phrase move on. You know, and move on from that. Those two ways of describing grief suck. That's not an adequate way to describe anybody's grief, the way that I think and this has helped us over the years in our communication and in each of our own individual grief, I mean we love to talk about integrating Stephen into our lives. So it's not that we're still there and it's not that we've walked away, but that he's come with us.

Speaker 3: 0:54

This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host, and unfortunately, chris is not able to be here with me today for this interview. He is spending quality time with his wife, amber, and so there is nothing wrong with that, hoping that he has a good time with his wife and his family. But I am so happy to be joined by two guests and we were just saying before we hit record how excited we both are to well, all three of us are to have this conversation today, so I'm going to ask both of you to please introduce yourselves Ladies first, obviously.

Speaker 4: 2:10

Okay. All right, my name is Kristen. Our last name is pronounced Riki. It's a nice, strong German name. I married into it, gosh. What do you want to know about us, kelly? We could go on all day here, but just some basics.

Speaker 3: 2:27

Yeah, just give me the basics, because we're going to get into the weeds of things as the conversation unfolds.

Speaker 4: 2:34

Okay, so Patrick and I have been married for over 25 years. We were super young when we got married we were in college and we have five children. One of them is in heaven already and other four are here. Three of those are boys. They're all adults in their late teens, early 20s, and then our baby is a little girl and she's still in high school. So we're living in northern Indiana where it's cold most of the time, except right now it's really hot. We're enjoying that.

Speaker 1: 3:12

And my name is Patrick Reekie. Yeah, like Chris said, I've been married, for I always like to say we've been married since the 1900s, because, you know, to younger people that sounds like we're about 100 years old, which we're getting there. Yeah, we were very fortunate to find each other very young. We really were just barely adults when we got married. So we lived our entire adult lives together and obviously the topic we're going to talk about today is something that happened really early on in that marriage and when we were still kids. And that's definitely a big part of our story not only experiencing the miscarriage, but it being so young and being such a foundational part of our lives our marriage.

Speaker 3: 3:53

Yeah, and as a result of your experience early on with the miscarriage, both of you co-authored a book called no Matter how Small. Both of you co-authored a book called no Matter how Small, so can you talk about that a little bit? How did that? At what point in your process did writing that book come about, and how did? What was the process like of putting your story on paper and then the process of releasing that to the world for people to read your story and your experience, which are very intimate things? Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yeah, I would say that anybody who's written a book knows it's a, it's an iterative process. I mean you do it and then you fix it, and then you do it, and then you fix it. And so, since we were coauthors, I would do it, she would fix it, I would do it, she would fix it. You know that sort of thing I was, I was the one at the keyboard a little bit more, and then I'd bring it to her and she'd be like, yeah, no, this is, this is not the way we need to say it, or just, you know fine adjustments, especially some of it is, of course, our story and a lot of it is practical stuff. You know, and Kristen's really knowledgeable on that.

Speaker 1: 5:02

Part of our story that we'll get into is working in health care a lot and serving patients who are experiencing this, and then Kristen going beyond that and kind of a continual interaction service for people who are experiencing miscarriage and stillbirth. So, like you said, kelly, part of that book is our story. You know what we experienced book is our story. You know what we experienced. And then there's just a whole lot of other people's stories because, as you know, this is way too common and happens a lot, but it happens differently for everybody. Everybody has a different experience with it and so we tried to weave some of those stories together. It really came very late, a long time after our experience, really kind of building up with those experiences in health care and working with other people and hearing their stories as well.

Speaker 4: 5:49

And I think you know, at the point that we were at, we actually released, no Matter how Small, on Stephen's due date that's our son that we had die at 16 weeks in utero. At 16 weeks in utero and, you know, even though it was almost 20 years after he would have joined our family, you know, I mean, we still had a story to share and um it just, you know, some uh, passion projects are born immediately and some sort of sit and simmer, and for us that's kind of how it was. Um, you know, from the moment that we heard there was no heartbeat. You know, it's the before and after and the after has been a lengthy process of really just understanding that this is still, even at this point, it's still rather taboo topic, and so we just really wanted to get our story out there and bring more awareness, you know, give more opportunity for people to pick up a resource that just might meet them in their darkest hours.

Speaker 3: 6:54

So it's interesting that you say that, because it's 20 years after the event. So you had 20 years to what process to grieve? And I don't think the grieving process ever finishes, it just evolves over time. At least that's my take on how the grieving process unfolds. So in the process of writing this book, some 20 years after the fact, what was it like going back to those initial days and sort of seeing your story now, which is your story?

Speaker 1: 7:30

it's always been your story, but now in a more objective way yeah, I think well, maybe to tell our story to start with and then kind of go on from that, if that's okay yeah, absolutely I mean we were 21, 20, 22 just graduated from college yeah, 22 and 21.

Speaker 1: 7:48

So we I, we were 21, 22. I just graduated from college at 22 and 21. So we were, we were, we were babies. And you know we, both of us from a large Catholic family. So I kind of figured like, hey, having kids is not going to be any real problem at all. She's one of seven, I'm one of six, you know, and, and I think part of it for us too is, you know, we just finished Bible college. We're going to get the mission field. We were at my own church. I was an intern, we had good insurance.

Speaker 1: 8:10

You know, this was the early 2000s, when the world made a little bit more sense maybe than it does now. And you felt like you kind of line things up and say, hey, we're going to do this, and then we're going to do B, and then we're going to do C, and it's all going to go overseas, we're going to be missionaries, and, um, and sure enough, you know, we're able to conceive right away, didn't have any fertility issues off the off the bat. And then you know, um, we were floating along like, like perfect little christian couple. You know, everything was going just right and and then we went in for the ultrasound, that appointment at 16 weeks, and and I, even even when the even when the doctor started to kind of communicate some of the things, or we, we went back and we did an ultrasound and they weren't able to find the heartbeat. At first they said what we're going to do, you know, or they did the doppler and then they said we're going to take you back for an ultrasound just to make sure everything's okay. I mean, I was clueless, you know I'm saying, oh, that's cool, we're gonna get more pictures of the baby. You know, I think maybe Chris was starting to get an idea.

Speaker 1: 9:05

And then we went back for that ultrasound. And you know, now we know, or now I know Chris and I think already. But now I know, when you go back for an ultrasound, as soon as they click the machine on, you start hearing sounds, heartbeat and you know that sort of thing. And you know she clicked that machine on and there was just silence. And still, for me I didn't, I was not catching on at all and I looked down and Kristen's got tears streaming down her face and I, honestly, I was still in the dark, like what is what is going on, thinking there's something wrong with the machine or the tech doesn't know what she's doing or whatever. You know, and you know, sometimes in those situations the tech's not know what she's doing or whatever you know, and and, and you know, sometimes in those situations the tech's not really going to say much. And so Kristen said there's no, heartbeat is there. And she just kind of gave a look that told us you know that that was the case and I mean sideswiped, right, you know, like for me, kristen had.

Speaker 1: 10:01

Kristen was devastated, but she had friends, you know people in her church growing up, family members that she had kind of walked, I mean, she'd actually been at baby's funerals, that sort of thing so obviously devastating, but within a bucket that she had formed already. And to the dad point, I don't think I'm probably the only dad that had no, I had no bucket. I had no framework for what was going on and and much less to have a framework then for for helping her. You know, go through that because she was already, you know, 10 steps ahead of where I was processing everything. And then I think that the other two things that really stick out for me back then, and this was, yeah, this was like we didn't even have smartphones. You know, this is that me back then, and this was, yeah, this was like we didn't even have smartphones.

Speaker 1: 10:45

You know, this is that's how long ago this was the internet was barely a thing yeah, truly, we had one email address between the two of us, you know may still have been dial up, I don't know. Dial up you know all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 10:59

You've got mail that's right, that was my most exhilarating son you could ever hear, you know.

Speaker 1: 11:07

but I think the part for me as a Christian pastor at the time was realizing. It took me several days to realize like, oh, like God. In the story of Jesus, god lost a son too, and you know that he understood some of those feelings and what that felt like, because up to that point I was just angry. You know, the dog took the brunt of it one day, you know, and I was angry and he was taking too long to go to the bathroom and I gave him a nice swift kick in the rear end and sent him across the backyard. And it was obviously nothing about the dog, it was those feelings that were sort of pinned up. And and then to realize like I could go to God for compassion and you would hope that because I was a Bible college graduate, I would've gotten into that right away, I didn't, you know, it took a little while to get to that point of feeling, that that sort of compassion.

Speaker 1: 11:58

But I think the other moment that stands out for me is Kristen had to have a surgery and have a DNC after the miscarriage and your first surgery, right, and you know.

Speaker 1: 12:12

So it makes sense. You know we understood what the doctor was recommending. We agreed that that was probably what was necessary to happen next, until she goes back for surgery and I go back out to the waiting room and I'm sitting there with I had some friends and some family there, but feeling very alone and thinking to myself, what if something happens to her now and I go from in in a day or two, go from this couple that's about to have a baby, to being by myself, and that and that was. There was no foundation for those, for that fear other than just general. You know, when you go to surgery something can happen, but it became overwhelming, you know, for the time that she was back there for me and and I I don't think I quite had a panic attack, but I maybe got just that little taste of what people experience for panic attacks and yeah, I suppose all that kind of dovetails with just feeling sideswiped and feeling like I really didn't have a bucket for the category for what we were going through.

Speaker 3: 13:20

You would rather just leave it shut as much as possible, because even so, much time later, I can still hear your like the treble in your voice as if it was happening to you right now. And I think that's worth mentioning for people who will hear this conversation, because it doesn't matter how much time elapses, that is an event that marks your life. It's sort of like a personal, if you will, september 11th, right Like people, just you just remember things and details, sharp details, and just like you, just remember those type of things and those feelings when you go back to those places. And it's been at this point that we're having this conversation. What are we talking about?

Speaker 4: 14:14

It's been it will have been 24 years this fall 24 years.

Speaker 3: 14:18

So for someone who is going through that experience now and is listening to this conversation, they can think about it in two ways. My God, in 24 years I'm still not going to get over this thing, and I would say that's the wrong way to look at it, right? I mean, what would you say?

Speaker 4: 14:38

Well, you know, we actually had that moment Patrick because he was working in a church. Had that moment Patrick because he was working in a church.

Speaker 1: 14:51

He was the intern so he did all the Sunday night preaching. The pastor didn't want to do the Sunday night preaching so the intern got it.

Speaker 4: 14:56

They handed it off which actually proved to be an incredible asset, to our grief. Because I mean you can kind of imagine the constituency that came to the Sunday night prayer meeting, or you know, I mean it was just the salt of the earth. People, a lot of older couples, just people that were just genuinely kind, caring, and they just listened. I mean they kind of had to cause it was the environment, but they were so just listened. I mean they kind of had to cause it was the environment, but they were so. They were so generous, um, with their compassion for us.

Speaker 4: 15:32

And and Patrick did, he shared about Steven, he said his name, we told the story, we shared things that we're currently processing through and one evening, um, an older couple approached us after that was all done and it's one of those moments that it just takes you right back and she took my hands and she looked me straight in the eye through her bifocals I wouldn't even guess they're probably in their eighties at that point and she said to me oh, kristen, it's been 52 years since our son died, right after he was born, and you never forget. And to your point, I thought to myself I wanted the floor to open up and just swallow me whole Like if I have to still feel this way in 50 years. I will not survive.

Speaker 4: 16:19

The good news, truly the good news, is that you don't have to feel that way for all that time you know to your point of the body keeps the score, or the body remembers, or you know those vivid, vivid, real details, a scent, a song, I mean anyone that's lost, anyone knows that to be true in their grief journey. You can literally go back there in a heartbeat with very basic things Our brain. Not only does it work that way to protect us, but to me, after almost 24 years, it also works that way to connect, to continue to connect us.

Speaker 2: 17:04

It also works that way to connect to continue to connect us.

Speaker 4: 17:05

You know, I mean we didn't make any more memories with him. That was it. We had 16 brief weeks and we were over the moon excited for sure. I mean we'd already gotten a room ready, names picked up. I mean, we were over the moon, so excited, couldn't wait. It all made perfect sense until it didn't.

Speaker 3: 17:23

The other way someone can hear this is to gain the inspiration and the perspective that you're sharing, which is, over time, you just learn to. Not just over time, you end up learning how to coexist I don't know if that's the right word to say, but that's what I'm going to say now. You learn to coexist with that aspect of your story which inevitably becomes an aspect of you and your life moving forward. Like there is a clear before point and afterwards, and you are not the same person after you've gone through that experience. No matter what people tell you, no matter how hard you try to reclaim some of your old identity or your old self, you're just not the same person. You can't be, and I would like to have your opinion on this, both of you because I think you actually do yourself a disservice if you try to stymie that process of discovering this new version of you.

Speaker 3: 18:39

I know it's not something that you wanted to necessarily, right, like no one woke up at any point in human history and said you know what I want to experience today? I want to experience a miscarriage. Right, like that's not something that anyone desires. Nevertheless, it happens and it happened to you as it happened to me and then, like yourselves, I found myself in this process now like what does all of this do? Like what does all of this mean? Where do I go from here? And I found it much more fruitful for me personally to just give myself into the process of grieving and being angry and being, you know, going through all of it, as opposed to trying to find distractions to keep my mind away from it. So do you have any, any insights? Does that relate to any part of your story whatsoever?

Speaker 4: 19:34

Well, you know, the part of our story that is unique for us is that Stephen was our first baby, our first baby. So I had actually never experienced what I would experience later when, when I was able to bring our first son um, that's got to stay Daniel into the world, and so I do. I can it a lot too, and I know this doesn't really help dads, but you've been there, you've been holding the hand, you've seen it. Um, it's really like labor pains. Um, if you try to work against them and fight against them, you're going in the wrong direction. You know, if you're willing to succumb to the pain and I'm proud to say that I have had two of my four living children without any pain medication and so I've actually gone through the whole thing the way it, I guess, is supposed to go although there's never a supposed to, you know that's, that's not a real thing, and so, truly, that's what, that's what I I kind of akin it to is allowing the pain to bring about the necessary delivery of what you really want.

Speaker 4: 20:52

You know, and I, honestly, in those early days, I just wanted my baby back.

Speaker 4: 20:59

You know, I didn't know that I would want a platform or an opportunity or, and I didn't see that as something that um now, now that my baby died, well, now I can do other things.

Speaker 4: 21:14

I know that is not how it went either, um that it was a process. It was definitely a process and and I will speak only to myself in this is that I did eventually realize that grief could be a welcome friend um in in my life. And really up to that point in my life I had not experienced, um certainly not this personal of a of a death. You know, when it happens within your own body, that's about as personal as it gets Um. But I mean, you know, I'd had a few experiences with, with infant loss and child loss sort of extended out from my intimate life. So this was the first, and after some time and I couldn't even tell you when, it was, I guess, such a slow process that I was able to really embrace grief as a teacher, as a guide, as a friend, embrace grief as a teacher, as a guide, as a friend, as part of who I am now forever.

Speaker 3: 22:28

Patrick, this question is for you. I want to go back briefly to here. You are Sunday night gatherings and you have this platform to talk about your experience. What was the reception like from other guys who obviously had to sit there and listen to you preach because they had no choice, right? Well, I guess they could have not shown up, but what was some of the feedback, if any, that you got positive, negative or neutral that you got, because I can't imagine Well, actually, I don't even know what I can or cannot imagine. So what was that? What was that like? Did you get any feedback from some of your constituents male constituents or friends or family members when you opened up about this experience that you and Kristen had?

Speaker 1: 23:15

Yeah, kristen has a better memory than I do, so I have to go back a little bit in my memory banks here. But you know it's interesting. The older couple that she talked about was super sweet but he didn't really have anything to say. You know, during that time, that interaction, great guy but you know it was like this is my wife's thing that happened to her and he didn't really have anything to say in that conversation. I think that I found that to be pretty common at that point. I think hopefully, with podcasts like yours, kelly, and some of the work that you're doing and others, we're pushing that envelope to where guys can talk a little bit more about it and I think the younger generation is more open in general than my generation and above.

Speaker 1: 24:00

But there was a lot of. There was a lot of not talking about it, I guess, is probably the easiest way to say it. And then, when you're in ministry and then, of course, later work in the hospital too, you come across lots of other people who are having similar experiences, who are having stillborn babies, who are having miscarriages, and even in those it was interesting that, even though they knew we had an experience, and then we're showing up for them, maybe even at the hospital, or following up with them weeks later, months later, you know, doing the things we do, even at that there's just, there's a barrier there still, I think, for men. That needs to be addressed, needs to be torn down so that we feel like we could talk about it. I think you know I don't want to stereotype all men, but I'll speak for myself.

Speaker 1: 24:42

I was really concerned about Kristen, how she was going to navigate that. Truth be told, probably she was already navigating it better than I was was integrating it into that. But I think I did have a unique privilege of being able to stand up in front of a group and say this is what happened, and it's really hard. And these are some of my takeaways from it and I bawled my eyes out. When I did, I cried hard and I've never minded doing that in front of groups of people. And now I've done lots of presentations on grief. You can't really present on grief and not have a few tears here and there.

Speaker 3: 25:18

What's wrong with that guy?

Speaker 1: 25:21

It's interesting. There was, I would say, one exception, and that was our senior pastor at the time, who was very senior, probably 45 years older than us. I mean, I look a little old, he looked really old he was he was really old and, um, you know I weren't really close.

Speaker 1: 25:42

I was on staff. He hired me, you know that sort of thing, but we, I would say we were close then or or after, really, um, you know, mutual respect but not really a close friendship. And within an hour of getting home after the appointment not the surgery, but after the appointment where we learned that, um, the baby had died he showed up at our house. He's, he's in, he's old school preacher, he's in the suit, the tie. You know it's like tuesday. Yeah, he's, he's in the suit and the tie. He didn't try to say anything. He walked through our front door. I don't think he'd ever been to our house, our tiny little rental house.

Speaker 4: 26:19

He brought, his wife, brought his wife.

Speaker 1: 26:20

So she was there for talking purposes, you know. But he walked right up to me. He's a little guy, he's probably six inches shorter than me and with that suit, jacket and everything, he just wrapped his arms around me. Wow. And you know I didn't love everything about his leadership, but I couldn't have loved him more in that moment. You know that meant so much to me and I'm not sure if there was any other man during that time that really did something like that.

Speaker 3: 26:50

Wow, that is such a powerful story. To be honest with you, as I'm listening to you, I did not anticipate the story headed in that direction. I thought it was going to go in the other direction, especially when you mentioned, you know he, it's a Tuesday and my man is decked out in his suit because, full disclosure you know, I also went to Bible school. Uh, I have my MDiv, so that's we share. We have that in common.

Speaker 3: 27:25

When I was younger, I lived with my uncle as I'm sure you can hear my son in the background just losing his mind but I lived with with my uncle, who is an esteemed pulpit minister, and the Haitian community within our religious tradition, and the moment I knew that I did not want to be that guy was one Sunday. He took us to a, an amusement park or like a fair that was coming through town and you know there was the Ferris wheel and all sorts of games and stuff like that. And I have my jeans and a polo on and my man was so holy that he had to wear a short sleeve shirt with a tie, slacks, black socks and slip on black shoes and I said, my guy, we're not gonna go evangelize, man, we about to have some fun and he just could not, like I don't think my uncle could spell or even identify. I think he had an allergic reaction to the word casual and I think for him, like that was as casual as it got and I was like, if that's what it takes to be that, I don't want it, I don't want it. So I'm hearing you say that and I'm not seeing the tiny little dude. I'm seeing my uncle coming up to you and I moments of grief, especially when you're the one who shows up to be a comfort for somebody else.

Speaker 3: 29:24

I was literally having that conversation yesterday with someone at work who found out I had seen this man many occasions before in the emergency department. But yesterday was the first time that we spoke and he was like, oh, you're a chaplain here, and he started telling me about, you know, some of the things that he's seen in the emergency department. He says he presented a scenario which was gruesome, so I'm not going to tell you the details. And he asked me the question in that scenario, what do you say to someone? And I always find it interesting that our natural impulse is to say something and it's not to fully immerse yourself inside the person's space where they're grieving and they're angry and whatnot, and just be okay with that, right? And that's a lesson that I ended up learning.

Speaker 3: 30:16

Even though professionally I do this all the time and I've spoken about this on the podcast before. That's a lesson that I had to learn on a more personal level after my wife passed one of the miscarriages here in our home and here she is in this moment of distress and I didn't know how to fit in her space. And I do this professionally where I just walk into like a patient's room and I'm like I'm at home. But here I am in my home and I couldn't do that for my wife and it was not until a couple of months later, talking to some guys who were just like my guy, you did the right thing, like you were there with her and that's all she needed to know.

Speaker 3: 31:08

So imagine how powerful that is within the confines of the two people who are directly impacted by this experience. But now also from the community side, where you find out, you know, that a Patrick, that a Kristen, that a Kelly experienced a miscarriage and you want to come and lend your support. You don't have to say anything A touch, a hug your presence. Just holding space for someone is more valuable. You say to someone who has just lost not just a baby, but so much more, like there's nothing you can say to anyone at that time.

Speaker 4: 32:03

Yeah, yeah, there's definitely no fixing it. And the the present of presence is is sometimes all you can give. And and you know, I'm sure we could go off on this rant because I believe you were also still in the hospital during that season of COVID where presence actually was not even allowed. And so we, you know, in our 20 plus years, we've kind of started to see the tide begin to change of people talking about it more obviously.

Speaker 4: 32:36

Hundreds of hundreds more resources and by resources I mean podcasts, books, websites not for profits, passion projects and then even practical things Weighted teddy bears, photography, free photography for people to memorialize and to capture those moments, you know, cooling devices so babies can stay present longer. I mean, there's just there's almost none of those things were present when Stephen died. So that's part of our, that's part of our story. It's also part of our passion for helping to provide that for other people. And again, you know there are no magic words, there's nothing you can do to fix it, but when they're ready to pick up a book or to put on a podcast and go for a walk the first time that they leave the house and just need some comfort, they need someone to say, yeah, me too. You know, and and again I've I've had the privilege of leading, I don't know, hundreds of support groups or one-on-one peer conversations and in those moments every baby and every story is unique. And so, you know, even the, the yeah me too can only get us so far, you know.

Speaker 4: 34:00

But certainly the hand on the shoulder and, uh, handing you blocks of Kleenex without words, um, sometimes are some of the most powerful um statements that we can make.

Speaker 4: 34:13

I mean, I think it's St Francis of Assisi that wrote, you know, the quote of sharing the gospel, being Christ to people and, when necessary, using words. I mean, I really take that to heart when it comes to showing up for other people in this kind of loss and in other kinds of losses. We actually just last night were on a walk and ran into a grandmother whose grandson was still born last week, at 21 weeks, and we gifted her the day of a copy of our book because she's like I just need something, I need some help, and I'd rather, you know, grab this and take it and read it than keep you up till you know 11 o'clock at night chatting. And she said to us, she said I, I think the most helpful thing from reading your book so far is that maybe I just need to show up and shut up that maybe I just need to show up and shut up.

Speaker 4: 35:17

She said that and I was like yep, and I kind of nodded like yeah, and we dearly love this neighbor of ours. But shutting up would not be in her normal repertoire. She definitely has the gift of words for sure, which we're grateful for, and so many other people are too. But you know that in these intense moments there just are not enough words, there aren't enough right words, there's just really nothing other than your presence.

Speaker 3: 36:19

Just being there. I want to ask you guys a question about comparing your story from 24 years ago, still feels the same as someone who has recently experienced a miscarriage from the perspective of, of of the dad Like it it. It almost feels like if our listeners were to not know anything about my story and not know anything about me, and we're just listening to my words and not know anything about Patrick and not know anything about how he looks like or any age, like no type of qualifiers, and we both told our stories. They would say, oh yeah, these are two guys who probably are, you know, in the same era, closely related and what have you. It doesn't feel like there is a 20 plus year gap in between our experiences. Feel like there is a 20 plus year gap in between our experiences and to me that's bothersome, on the one hand, while also acknowledging, kristen, that there are more resources available now, but why does it still bother me so much?

Speaker 1: 37:30

Yeah, I think I want to kick it to Kristen quickly, because she has both her own experience of lack of resources when we had that experience and then she's curated what I think is the largest list of resources for miscarriage and stillbirth that exists in the world. So I want her to talk about that a little bit. But I think, from our standpoint, one of the things that you and I have connected on at the past, kelly, is systems. One of the things that you and I have connected on in the past, kelly, is systems. You know systems that are missing or not robust. You know that there's when a baby is born in the hospital. There may be some systems there for mom. You know a baby that's born healthy and alive. Here's these resources, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 38:08

What are you doing for the partner? What are you doing for dad? Because dad may have a learning gap that's greater than mom's, you know, and then and then we love to then kind of come back on dad later when he's not there. He's not doing the things you ought to do, that sort of thing. It's like, well, there's a lot of us that didn't get taught. You know necessarily how to do that. Not everybody's got the same experience. Not everybody knows how to be a dad and it can be overwhelming. And, um, I'll speak for myself again, not categorize all men, but I didn't have any instincts with little babies. I have great instincts with young adult children now, but it took us 20 years to get to that point where my instincts finally started to kick in. You know, I didn't have any of that and I think the system side too, like just as a very small but a very important example for us and you'll appreciate this, kelly, because you're a part of the healthcare system when we had our miscarriage there wasn't any state law saying anything about what happened to those remains. So like Kristen thought about it at the time was weighing heavily on her. I didn't think about it until much later that we never got to see those remains. We had no rights with those remains. They were discarded. You know not to be. I don't want to be gruesome about how they're discarded, but we never got to have a funeral, have a burial, have a conversation about that. I'm sure had we known enough to say we want to do this, someone might have navigated that for us In that time.

Speaker 1: 39:26

Since then, what's changed in our state is that there's a requirement now for healthcare facilities, at least now. Obviously, when something happens at home, it's a different story. But for health care facilities to say these are your rights, you know, to the, especially to the mother, um, but then that that translates to opportunities, hopefully for the dad and for the rest of the family, to say you know, maybe we need to do something to honor this life, to have a burial, to have cremation, whatever the case may be, but those, if those systems aren't in place and that's just the beginning, that you know the state laws is the bottom rung of the ladder of systems that need to be in place. But a lot of states don't have that and we don't have those very basic things to say let's treat this like we would treat another death.

Speaker 1: 40:11

You know, systems of bereavement, leave, systems of. You know how do we have conversations about these things is something that's still missing, and I think that's why. Are there a lot of resources? Are there a lot of books? Are there a lot of support groups? Are there a lot of not-for-profits? Yes, but if those aren't systematized, you don't find those until you go to look for them, they don't come and find you find those until you go to look for them.

Speaker 1: 40:37

They don't come and find you. And what? The work you're doing, and some of the work that we've done in the past, is to try to make sure that those show up at the right time for those people, and I think that's why your story and mine sound similar, even though there is so much more that's out there in the world.

Speaker 4: 40:52

Well, and just hearing you talk about the comparison, the stories, because you know, when we do events, when Patrick's speaking or we're hosting memorial events and things like that, and families come and we hear stories, 10 years before dads weren't even allowed in the delivery room. I mean, when Patrick was born, the youngest of six children, his dad was in the delivery room with him and him alone. Every other delivery he was down in the smoking lounge with all the other dads. That like blows my mind. That feels like another life on TV somewhere. And and so you know, even in the context of a hospital setting, when babies were born, and even from our first living son, daniel, and we were just actually watching some home videos the other day and we joked, oh, we sent him down to the nursery so that we could eat our celebratory dinner or whatever. And most hospitals don't even do that anymore. It's room in completely, you know, for whatever reason. So there are some of those natural changes that have occurred over time.

Speaker 4: 42:03

But I agree wholeheartedly with what Patrick said. There are not things that are systematized enough within the context of where these babies are being born, and even at home, you know, there needs to be. I remember being told what side of my body I needed to sleep on. I should not be eating cold cut meats. You know when and when the baby is born. These are the special car seats. They need to keep them safe, all these things.

Speaker 4: 42:32

And yet, as often as your baby could potentially die, for nobody to ever say, oh, and if this happens, this is what's going to happen, and I don't mean you know in great detail, but even that it could happen. You know, and, and as I talk with lots of parents in this, under this umbrella or in this community, they often say, like, why didn't anybody say anything? They prepare us for all episiotomies and you know your glucose tolerance does all these things, but yet never once mentioned the bad thing. And I will say that it has been my experience that when Steven died, part of our story is that it was handled very, very poorly from our doctor's office.

Speaker 4: 43:22

In fact, the doctor that I was seeing did not do my surgery. I switched doctors over the course of two days and found a different doctor who offered me compassion. I remember having a phone call with the guy on call when I was sent home. And then, you know, in my overwhelm, I was told just call the office later and let us know what you want to do. And so we went home, we started our grieving process, we tried to talk with other people and research our options, which, again, the Internet wasn't much of a thing. So this medication that you just told me about what am I going to call the pharmacy and ask about it and what might happen? And you know, we felt very ill-equipped. But so then I had to call back into my doctor's office and they're like, yeah, we'll get you the guy on call. And he I can remember this as plain as day when he picked up the phone and he said hi, mrs Reiki, I'm sorry for your fetal demise. What would you like to do next?

Speaker 1: 44:20

Wow.

Speaker 4: 44:27

And I was gobsmacked, was like I didn't miss a beat, though I said oh, you mean the death of my baby?

Speaker 3: 44:30

well, sure, that's if that's what you want to call it, and I was like, oh wow yeah, and I was like, okay, dude, we're not having this conversation.

Speaker 4: 44:35

So I was like you know what? I'm not quite sure what I want to do, but I'll call you back when I know. And that was. It was a very brief conversation because at that point I realized whatever's happening is not happening in the context of that, the way that I wanted the story to go, and you have so many things that are out of your control that if you can have a few of those pieces that are in your control, those are very affirming to your experience.

Speaker 4: 45:01

So, at any rate, I think it was the next day we got in with a different doctor and he sat in his office across the table from us and said if you were my wife or if you were my daughter, this is the course I would want you to take.

Speaker 4: 45:15

That would be most healthy for you and the baby and future pregnancies and so on. And so in that compassion I was able to feel supported for the surgery and that kind of thing. Those situations are still happening and dads are still feeling like they're not even part of the process. I mean, no one talked to Patrick no one, you know when they were getting me prepped for surgery. Even nobody said this is what's going to happen afterward, how you can best support her, all those things. I do feel like there are some health systems that are working hard to prepare dads, no matter the outcome baby survives, baby dies, baby survives, baby dies. At least we have some, at least in my opinion. We have some health systems that are starting to integrate this, because we're we're looking back over the last 40 years and we're like, yeah, this, this isn't going well.

Speaker 3: 46:19

What do we need to?

Speaker 4: 46:19

do? How can we change this? And there are people who are making strides, and that's, I think, one of the things that thrilled me about when I found your podcast. This is a game changer for dads, and not just dads, but families, family units. People hear all the time of the best thing, especially around Father's Day. The best thing a dad can do for his kids is love their mom. I'm not going to argue that point at all I've experienced that.

Speaker 4: 46:54

Yep, I agree. However, if dad's not mentally, socially, financially stable, spiritually, physically stable, the whole thing crumbles, and so we're missing a significant piece of support coming up behind the back of the father, holding him up so that he can then brace everybody else in the family system. And that's why I love what you're doing. And you know, there's some other great podcasts out there, there's some good books, there's some really neat organizations. I do think too that, if we could, there's some local things here in Indiana who are helping to address men's mental health. It's just critical across the board. Take pregnancy and infant loss out of the picture completely, and you still, there's such a significant need to support men's mental health, and so I think if we can even latch onto some of those systems that are starting to do that, this can be a part of it and kind of be swept into that movement, and hopefully we'll continue to just see better and better outcomes.

Speaker 3: 48:11

Well, two things. Thank you for validating my feeling of frustration, because there is plenty of reasons. There are plenty of reasons to be frustrated because in some aspects things I mean with all of the technological advancements that we have and all of the progress that we've made as a civilization over the past I've only been alive for 39 years, so right under that 40 year mark. So in my lifetime there's been so many new developments and what have you? There's been so many new developments and what have you? I have this internal feeling. That's like. I know you've only been alive for 39 years, but in relation to this thing that you're so new, to looking back and looking now, it should get better, like you should see a marked improvement and that has not been the case. So thank you for validating that and also thank you for reiterating the fact that there are things happening and I understand that change in the grassroots level, you know, tends to be very slow and methodical and what have you?

Speaker 3: 49:22

But my rebuttal to that would be do I have to be 80 years old before I walk into, you know, a healthcare setting and actually see someone, including dad, at the same rate and level and whatever that they've been doing moms. For what? 300 years. So you know, that's just, but anyway. So that's one. Number two, I do want you to talk, kristen, about the extensive list that Patrick mentioned, that you have curated, you have curated. I want you to talk about the process of curating and compiling that list, because I browsed through it a couple of days ago and I was like dang, she got time.

Speaker 4: 50:16

Oh, you know again, so many of our life experiences lead us to the next step, and so, when Stephen died, I was actually working at a library at the time and I, on my breaks, I went to the self-help section of the library, which is where pregnancy books were held at the time. A large library system, by the way, in fact, is known for the largest um collection of genealogy in the entire United States.

Speaker 4: 50:49

So, it's a very good library system, um, and there were a couple of books on pregnancy and there were a couple of mere paragraphs on miscarriage or stillbirth. That's it. It felt so gosh it was. It was hurtful.

Speaker 3: 51:08

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 51:08

Like like my experience is matters so little.

Speaker 3: 51:12

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 51:12

Somebody couldn't even write a book or a pamphlet.

Speaker 3: 51:15

Yeah, not even a whole chapter, just like a paragraph.

Speaker 4: 51:19

Right, right.

Speaker 3: 51:20

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 51:21

And again, right, the world has picked up real fast. The digital age has just whooshed in. Yeah, yeah, some other women who were, literally, I would call them the godmothers of the pregnancy and infant loss community awareness and education. So they were there, I just didn't know how to find them at the time. Again, that has changed dramatically with the rush of the internet and all the things that are out there.

Speaker 4: 52:02

So, out of my lack, I have always tried to step in and provide you know where, where, a space that caused me great pain, that I could prevent that from happening to someone else. And so, you know, when we were first having kids, you know, I started doing meals for moms, whether they had brought a baby home or didn't get to bring a baby home. Those meals showed up because, by golly, a warm meal is helps, period the end, you know. And so then, and then I started doing one on one with people who lost pregnancies and then, you know, just sort of began to morph, no matter where we found ourselves, and as resources became available. I just sort of began to morph, no matter where we found ourselves, and as resources became available, I'd grab them up at the library or I'd, you know, pull them together in a list.

Speaker 4: 52:55

And then, when Patrick started working in healthcare setting, I took on a more formal role and began leading support groups, and at that point I wanted to resource these women and men. We had dads that came, we had single moms, we had teen moms I mean right, because this experience doesn't have any specifics to it and so we know that one book or one podcast can't be the one thing that everybody goes to. So I began to pull these together. We had donor dollars that would have them in a book shelf in our meeting space so people could just have them as a gift and, you know, when you're done with that, hand it off to somebody else. And you know, to be honest, a lot of people aren't in a headspace to pick up a book right away. Right, honest, a lot of people aren't in a headspace to pick up a book right away. But I will tell you that there are some incredible people doing some incredible things, and as long as you can get a hold of them, then they can be utilized to their fullest.

Speaker 1: 53:57

And so I, so how many resources do you have on your site now?

Speaker 4: 54:00

So I add to my list literally literally. Whenever I just find something, I check it out.

Speaker 1: 54:06

And somebody said you need to batch this process and do it every six months.

Speaker 4: 54:12

Because there's just this new stuff literally all the time. It's simply amazing to me, and right now, currently on the site, there's over 500 resources. There's over 500 resources, and that includes websites, books, podcasts, books for children, because that one really good one on there called the miscarriage dad's podcast you should definitely check that out.

Speaker 3: 54:35

I'll definitely check that out, that's the top of the list.

Speaker 4: 54:40

Things for leaders, professionals, even new nurses could pop on there and say, oh my gosh, I just started working at a family birthing center or labor and delivery floor and we don't have anything for if a baby dies here in our unit. And there are countless organizations that will mail, send stuff to you. All you got to do is reach out to them and they will send it your way. And you know there's a lot of now resources and so I just wanted to gather those into one space so that it was easy for people to find. There's also a list on there for pregnancy after loss, because in my experience, that is a whole other stressor in life that needs additional support and some, you know, to give some bandwidth to that whole experience. So, yeah, yeah, it's there, it's on the World Wide Web, and I've continued to just reach out to people who I've put their resource on the list and have had just some incredible feedback. And you know you don't know what you don't know, so I wanted people to know there's.

Speaker 4: 55:47

There's stuff here and it's available to you. It's oftentimes free. Your podcast doesn't cost any money. You know, um, there's an organization that will send flowers to a woman who's lost a baby, all you gotta do is reach out to them. I think they charge like $5.99 for shipping. Like, how sweet is that? Money isn't even an option at that point or an obstacle, you know?

Speaker 3: 56:14

Yeah, yeah, no, I think it's great that you've been able to compile and you're still actively looking for more resources. And you're still actively looking for more resources because there can never be enough resources to help support families who have experienced the loss of a child at any point in the gestational period. So thank you for your dedication to that process and for doing that. That. As we land the plane, um, I do want to talk. I want us to go back to your, your story and your experience and ask two final questions.

Speaker 3: 56:55

I think for me, my initial obstacle the thing that I found the most difficult at first with our first miscarriage obviously was our first experience was not being able to relate to my wife's experience, not being able to communicate with her in a way that was effective.

Speaker 3: 57:27

Communicate with her in a way that was effective, not just to communicate what I was still trying to figure out for myself that I was feeling, but to even ask how she was feeling and how I could be supportive to her, and that took a toll on our relationship initially, and eventually, of course, we were able to work it out.

Speaker 3: 57:43

So the first thing that I want to ask of the two last questions is if you can speak to that in terms of the communication aspect, patrick, particularly from the perspective of the male who at times and I'm part of a Facebook group that miscarriage support for men on on Facebook, and one of the most common things that I read on there is men who are who have experienced this and they're just saying I don't know how to talk to my partner and I don't know how to talk to her because he doesn't even know how to identify and express what's going on inside of him. So I'm wondering if you could speak to that first, patrick, and then the final question for the both of you is it's been 24 years since Stephen's death. What is he still teaching you to this day?

Speaker 1: 58:42

Yeah, that's a great question. I think to that that what I would say to those dads that aren't sure what to say is just just to almost the opposite of what we talked about earlier of don't say anything in that moment, but as time goes on, in that relationship with your, your wife, your partner, say just just talk, you know you're not going to say it right all the time, you're not going to knock it out of the park, you know when you're trying, you don't knock it out of the park on other topics. Why would you knock it out of the park on this topic, you know? But it's the willingness to, willingness to engage, you know, and um, and to have those conversations, to ask questions, you know, and and and then to be humble about it. You know, if I ask a question and I realize, as she's answering, that was a stupid question, that I asked her to be able to be like I'm sorry, I guess that was a stupid question to ask you, but but I care about how you're doing, you know, and that sort of thing. And I think sometimes, for me at least, kristen's an extrovert, I'm an introvert. I think as I, as I talk with her about it, I actually learn more about how I'm doing in that conversation, because she'll pull things out of me that are sitting and they're kind of rock hard inside me, you know, and then as I start to get them out, they loosen up and I can start to feel those things in a new way. So I think that's part of what I would say is sort of the opposite of just sit down and shut up and be there with somebody in the moment of trauma and crisis is to engage, you know. And then I think kind of with that and and actually kind of going towards your second question, I think language is so important and how we talk about over time, over 24 years, because the language that the world usually uses and you hear this on every movie when somebody dies and somebody's going through grief, we talk about either being stuck in grief we use that word, we love the word stuck, they're just stuck there, they can't get over it or we use the phrase move on, you know, and move on from that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:32

Those two ways of describing grief suck. That's not an adequate way to describe anybody's grief, the way that I think, and this has helped us over the years in our communication and in each of our own individual grief. We, we love excuse me, we love to talk about integrating Stephen into our lives. So it's not that we're still there and it's not that we've walked away, but that he's come with us. You know in spirit, and that there's things that happen still 24 years later.

Speaker 1: 1:01:02

You know, every fall, um, it reminds us of that time because it happened in October and we went for a walk and there was dry leaves on the ground and they're crunching under our feet. So, guess what, every fall now, when we go for a walk and there's dry leaves and they're crunching under our feet, and even sometimes I'll even remember Kelly that that's something that's happening inside of her and say something about it first and say, oh, here we are. You know, we, that's something that's happening inside of her, and say something about it first and say, oh, here we are, we're at weatherfall again and those leaves are there. We have the ornament we put on the tree. We talk with our kids now about it.

Speaker 1: 1:01:34

Even this week I sat down with a colleague for lunch that I hadn't seen for a while and he's catching up on the family. I was like, well, our oldest is going to be a senior in college And's like, wow, you guys got started really early and, before I could even think about it, tell you about this before I came to think about it. Well, you got to remember we had one before him and he would be 23. He'd be, like you know, if he had gone to college, he'd be even out of college at this point. And he goes wow, well, you guys really did start early, yeah we did start early, but it's just.

Speaker 1: 1:02:03

You know, it wasn't an emotion Like I wasn't angry at him that he didn't remember that he knows that we had a miscarriage. I wasn't angry at him that he didn't remember, but it was just a part of the conversation and so because we hadn't thought about it as either being stuck or moving on, but as integrating him into our lives. I think that's the way he keeps teaching us.

Speaker 4: 1:02:25

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:02:27

Kristen, I'll give you any final words that you want to, that you want to share.

Speaker 4: 1:02:33

Yeah, you know, steven, he made me a mom and he made me a mom and I could not have been a mom if it weren't for his dad. So I'm super grateful and you know, I think he'd be really proud of us. I think he is really proud of us. Um, that, something that could have ruined us, that we allowed it to just really. You know, our hearts were broken. We we talk about this a lot Our hearts were broken and in those broken parts and pieces we allowed the healing to come in. We allowed the that, our tears, to water that brokenness and for the light to get in again, because it's a process and new things started growing. And even between the two of us, you know a different kind of respect and a and a a way that we carry on. I mean you know a different kind of respect and a way that we carry on. I mean you know we do have four living children, but there's no guarantee one of them isn't going to go home before we do. You know, I mean there's no promises about any of our kids. So I think it's helped us to hold very loosely. It definitely made me a more grateful and patient mom. I think it's helped us to hold very loosely. It definitely made me a more grateful and patient mom. I think I would have been less patient because in those moments where it's the hardest for me, I have to remind myself that I didn't get to do that with Stephen, and so that colors it and it always will. And so that colors it and it always will.

Speaker 4: 1:04:27

I think the other thing for couples that I would share is that the statistics are against you. They really are. People who experience the death of a child in their marriage are more likely to experience the aftermath of mental health struggles, financial struggles, unfaithfulness, one way or another. So the cards are stacked against you, but it doesn't have to be that way. You can leave room for one another to process this pain in the ways that you need to process respecting that person and their journey. It doesn't have to look like yours. I didn't expect or even want Patrick to have the same thoughts and feelings about it that I had, especially not at the same time, because we'd have been a mess. You know, honestly, we.

Speaker 4: 1:05:30

I think that that's where the strength comes from Joining your life with someone else right is because those places that you lack maybe they can fill in a little bit and and you can, you know, bring each other up and pull each other farther along in the journey and, um, yeah, so it's not, it's not easy. Um, it's worth it, it's really worth it. I, I really I know that, since that happened so long at the very beginning of our marriage, that that has played an enormous part in our growth as a married couple for the last 25 years, grateful for that. Doesn't always happen that way and we write about that in other stories and we've walked with other people. You know, sometimes it just can't, it's irreparable, but it doesn't have to be that way and there are people who are willing to help you navigate those. So you can find them. Some of them you can find on my website, so check it out. Some of them you can find as guests on Kelly's podcast. So go back in the archives.

Speaker 3: 1:06:46

Podcasts, so go back in the archives. Since you mentioned the website, where can people find your website? Or I should say, how can they find your website?

Speaker 4: 1:06:52

Yeah, it's super simple, just KristenReekiecom. It's actually a part of Patrick's main website, which is PatrickReekiecom. So if you happen to stumble there, first go to the resources tab. It's at the top of the tab miscarriage and stillbirth Our books on Amazon. We also have some fiction books about miscarriage and stillbirth and those are also on Amazon under the pen name PS Adair, and those are just again, books that we didn't have things, stories that we couldn't read ourselves, and so we kind of put them into print in a fictional way too, because it helps to. I think fiction, any kind of story, helps to open our minds and our hearts to truth that we may not normally open our hearts and minds to. So we did that too, so you can check those out. They're on Amazon. Thank you, thank you you.