Welcome to episode 2 of The Miscarriage Dads!
Have you ever felt the joy of anticipation and expectation that comes with a growing life, only to be met with the devastating stillness and silence when it's lost prematurely? That’s what we're addressing in this profound conversation, as we journey through experiences of early pregnancy loss, the struggle to revisit those painful memories, and the unexpected relief in sharing them.
In this heartfelt discussion, we discover the troubling words that influenced Kelly's response to his first miscarriage experience. We also delve into the emotional challenges he faced that almost caused a rift in his marriage. We explore the often detached approach of medical practitioners and the potential harmful implications it may have on the relationships of the people they serve.
Finally, we underline how crucial it is to be present for our loved ones during challenging times. Talking about the double standard men face when it comes to mental health after the loss of a child, we also explore the lack of available resources for men. The episode wraps up with a discussion on traditional masculinity, the danger of suppressing feelings, particularly following the loss of a child.
So, buckle up and join us as we unpack these issues. The learnings from Kelly's story might just be the thing you need to hear today.
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Best,
Kelly & Chris
Welcome to episode 2 of The Miscarriage Dads!
Have you ever felt the joy of anticipation and expectation that comes with a growing life, only to be met with the devastating stillness and silence when it's lost prematurely? That’s what we're addressing in this profound conversation, as we journey through experiences of early pregnancy loss, the struggle to revisit those painful memories, and the unexpected relief in sharing them.
In this heartfelt discussion, we discover the troubling words that influenced Kelly's response to his first miscarriage experience. We also delve into the emotional challenges he faced that almost caused a rift in his marriage. We explore the often detached approach of medical practitioners and the potential harmful implications it may have on the relationships of the people they serve.
Finally, we underline how crucial it is to be present for our loved ones during challenging times. Talking about the double standard men face when it comes to mental health after the loss of a child, we also explore the lack of available resources for men. The episode wraps up with a discussion on traditional masculinity, the danger of suppressing feelings, particularly following the loss of a child.
So, buckle up and join us as we unpack these issues. The learnings from Kelly's story might just be the thing you need to hear today.
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Best,
Kelly & Chris
All of my anticipation, all of my expectations started to grow as this baby was growing right, and my expectations and anticipation kept growing, even after this child, this life stopped growing, but we didn't know yet. So I'm going through this whole thing and all of a sudden this thing is dropped in the middle. Hey, don't be surprised if the first pregnancy doesn't stick. It created this divide between that expectation, that anticipation, that sense of that reality that was birthing in my imagination. Boom, that just stopped. It just stopped. So then I couldn't connect, where I was now on the other side of that fence, to all of that excitement and anticipation that came before. So at no point did I stop to consider Kel, you were going to be. Were is the operative word. Yeah, now you're not going to be anymore. And then give myself space, give myself permission to explore what that would be like for me.
Speaker 1:This is the miscarriage dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads, openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to episode two of the miscarriage dads podcast. My name is Kelly, my name is Chris and we are so excited that you have decided to come back and tune in to yet another conversation about two dads who are talking and sharing about our experiences of multiple or a single early loss of pregnancy, aka miscarriage. At the miscarriage dads podcast. What we're trying to do is to humanize the experience of early pregnancy loss or miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about it, and so thank you for being a part of this journey and community. Chris, how you doing man?
Speaker 2:Do it okay, man, I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. I think I'm starting to come down with a cold. Amber's been sick all week. It all started from little Chris and it is spreading around the house like a little xenomorph trying to get us all. So here I am.
Speaker 1:It's crazy, right, because once the kids get sick, forget about it. You know you're next Like you are not that far away.
Speaker 2:Not at all. Not at all. It's funny because it's like the opposite. You know, you think you get older, you have adult germs. Those kid germs are strong man, they're strong.
Speaker 1:Yo, they knock you out, bro, knock you out.
Speaker 2:And Chris is fine. He's fine, of course he is.
Speaker 1:So is Randall. Why wouldn't they be? They're fine, and you're the one who's like sick for like three years.
Speaker 2:But I'm okay, though. I'm okay. It's like worse than COVID every time, but I'm good, I'm still here. We're still alive. This is why we're parents.
Speaker 1:Yes, indeed, yes indeed. We've had some time in between our last conversation, so I just wanted to revisit to check in to see how you are and what at this time removed, Like what any new things have come up for you, any feedback you've received or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, talk to Amber about it, because she saw some of the snippets that you put out on IG and on TikTok and it was just interesting talking to her about it. The main thing we both said is it's hard, it's hard to listen to, it's hard to kind of revisit and talk about again. But it was interesting because she was saying, wow, like there were some things that I didn't remember or there were some things that I didn't pay attention to. So it's interesting going through this process, knowing that your spouse is going to actually hear the conversation, because these are things I haven't even really talked with her about yet. So it's almost like this different medium in a sense, because it's like I've talked to a counselor and now like she's getting the transcripts of the talk with the counselor.
Speaker 2:But, what it's doing is, and this was completely I don't want to say unintentional, but it caught me off guard. I didn't expect to have deeper conversations about these things with my wife based on what we're talking about here, and it has actually been helpful. You know, some of the things I've been sharing, of course, are very personal and I, of course, got the okay to share those things from her. Now that we've had the chance to talk about a couple of those things and giving each other that time to revisit and go over things, it's been helpful for us and it's an interesting to see how it's helpful for her as well.
Speaker 1:You know what you're saying is so interesting because I was just on somebody else's podcast. This great podcast, by the way free advertisement for them is called the Still Parents Podcast. It's based out in the UK. Two of the gentlemen who are one of them is the founder of this organization out in the UK called the Lily Mae Foundation, named after his daughter who passed away many years ago after she was birthed, and so the podcast.
Speaker 1:I was a guest on the podcast and I brought up that very point that to this day, my wife and I Michelle and I we have not yet sat to talk about what the experience was like for me and for her. And so to hear you say that this is something that is not helping you and Amber talk about this event that both of you experienced, which is difficult to revisit, which is really hard to get yourself in that space emotionally and relive, like you said in episode one, what is the worst day of your life, instead of saying what I think I would like for you to tease out a little bit more. What has it been like to talk to her and go through that process of objectively looking at this event, both from the outside, looking in, and once again, from the inside looking out.
Speaker 2:For me it's interesting to see now we haven't had super extensive talks yet, but in the smaller talks that we've had, it's interesting to see not that our perspectives were different, but that there are different pieces that we remember, and being able to put those pieces together has really created this whole story. And being able to put those pieces together, I think, is where the healing kind of comes from. Because it's great for me and you to talk, because we have our feelings and our sides and, of course, what we're trying to do is encourage other men to talk about what's going on or what has gone on with them and is going on in terms of experiencing a loss like this. But it's different when you're talking to your spouse or your girlfriend or the one that you went through this with. Yeah, and to talk about this with my wife and be able to put those pieces together, there is a healing that's happening Because, again, you get the chance to revisit, you get the chance to place things a little bit more together and, like you were saying, kind of examine things objectively and, like I said, just hearing her say wow, I didn't remember that part and I didn't really think about that part that means a lot.
Speaker 2:It means a lot. I don't know. I guess it felt kind of nice for me as the husband and kind of restores a little bit of that feeling, like I explained the other episode of kind of like the guilt of not being there to protect, kind of restores that a little bit, because there are some things that I have held on and protected in my mind that I have now been able to give back to her. And again, of course, it's not like this is a gift. It's a hard thing to remember. However, it's a part of the healing and I'm just glad that I was able to. Even for those, because the clip is a few seconds long, it's not super long, but even for those few seconds, being able to give her that back it means a lot. It means a lot.
Speaker 1:So before we proceed, I just want to put this out ahead. We're experiencing some interference difficulties with signal strengths and all of that stuff, so we apologize for that. There's nothing that we can do about how the weather or anything else affects our Wi-Fi signal and how those signals may impact the audio or video quality. So just kind of bear with us and we will do the best that we can to clean things up. But at the end of the day, welcome to the wonders and the less desirable parts of technology and Wi-Fi and all of that good stuff. Right, I mean whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, everything out of my control, that's life.
Speaker 1:So in episode one, you allowed me to steer the conversation as you shared your experience, and we did leave off saying that I wanted to explore more things about your story, but I think I'm going to make a U-turn, and we've decided that we'll make a U-turn, so we'll eventually come back to some of the things that we were going to talk about. But I think you brought up a good point in that you feel like you've said enough for now, and so now you're going to take the lead and steer our conversation so that you can create for me the space that I created for you during our first conversation. So if you are up for the task, my friend, I am willing to follow your lead, as my son is in the background there just crying his little heart out because most likely he's unfinished and he can't have some ice cream.
Speaker 2:Yo, this would not be an authentic dad's podcast without our children doing something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean my wife is having a full-blown conversation, right.
Speaker 2:Right, listen. We're not AI robots, we are real dads. We are real children and those real children have needs and we'll interrupt at any moment. So, yes, I'm here for it, but all right time for me to take over for a little bit. So, man, just go ahead and start sharing your story, just bring it.
Speaker 1:Where do I start? When he's upset at his mom, he wants daddy to come and save the day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So I guess we can start there. Okay, having children is incredible, yes, and those moments for, as annoying as they are, in the best possible way, I would not have gotten to this moment had we not embark on this journey of wanting to have children. Yeah, and once you embark on that journey of wanting to have children, of wanting to start a family and eventually grow a family, you kind of brace. Now, from this perspective of why we're even having this podcast and this conversation. I would encourage anyone to sort of brace yourself for both the expectations and the desirable parts of it, as well as the least desirable parts of it and the unthinkable parts of it. And I know that's not something that people want to necessarily talk about. And I'm at a place where I no longer am bothered by that, because why would I want to consider the fact that, to put it this way, if I knew that getting my wife pregnant would end in us losing a baby, if I had that foreknowledge before, I wouldn't do it. Why would I do it? Why would I do it? You know what I mean. So I empathize and I understand and I even sympathize with folks who are just like no, I don't want to have children and this and that. So to each their own, 100 percent. But that is a part of this whole concept, of this whole experience, of this whole reality that you and I are a part of. So when my wife and I we decided that we wanted to start our family, it seemed to me and this is something that I came to the realization of recently, as recent as like this morning I was on another podcast this morning and the host asked me this question that made me put these puzzle pieces together. My wife asked me to not share with anybody that we were pregnant and all of the pregnancies that we've had, and her reason is so that, in the event that something happened, she didn't want to then have to backtrack and talk to people and explain and open up or be exposed to people's thoughts and opinions and pity parties and all of that stuff. Like she's a very private person and so it was just safer that way. Nowhere in my mind did I consider that we wouldn't have a healthy pregnancy because she's healthy, I'm healthy, we're young and it's just a matter of doing the deed and she'll be pregnant Nine months later. We'll welcome our baby Happily ever after. Amen, let the church be dismissed. But that's clearly not what happened. But she so she asked me not to do that and at first I was annoyed and I was like, oh, come on, man, like I really just want to. I really just want to shout it from the rooftop I'm excited here, I'm going to be a dad.
Speaker 1:So we end up in the first appointment and the ultrasound was not conclusive. So then we had to come back for a second ultrasound. It did confirm that she was pregnant, but I think, if I remember correctly, like it was, there was some gray area there that we needed to come back for a second ultrasound. And I distinctly remember the physician saying these words, and I quote don't be surprised if the first pregnancy doesn't stick. Now, if anyone has heard me talk about this story before, I always mentioned those words, because those words shaped my expectation, wow, my expectation to the point that if, if the first pregnancy didn't stick, the way that the doctor said it indicated to me that it was not a big deal Like this is something that happens all the time. So if this is something that happens all the time, then I know that my chances after that first pregnancy exponentially increase. And that's how my mind processed it Whoa and for. For a guy who is professionally someone who has to create instant connections with people in the worst days of their lives, my mind for me, and my experience in my context did not work that way. So when we went back to the second ultrasound for that first pregnancy and it was confirmed a non viable pregnancy, bro, my wife was distraught and your boy was chilling because oh, this is what the doctor said.
Speaker 1:So this first pregnancy did not stick. It's not a big deal, you know what I mean? Like we'll just get over this and we'll just try again, because for sure the second one is going to to stick. And those words are so like I mean, I don't know. I'm curious to hear what your response is to hearing those exact words. And I'm not. This is not fabricated, this is not hyperbole in any way, shape or form. Those exact words were said to me Don't be surprised if the first pregnancy doesn't stick. So how do you hear that?
Speaker 2:I mean I was offensive. First of all, and that's something I was going to ask you was how do you feel about that question and especially the way it was put out there in hindsight? Because it's one thing, like you said, to be going through it and you were at that point going through the motions Because, like you said, now your expectations have been laid out for you and you're going to this in a very matter of fact kind of way, which I mean just off the back to me now I am no counselor or professional counselor or anything like that, but that feels like you were shocked into it just based on how an emotional or emotionally detached you were. From that moment. It's like you were shoved off a cliff into this thought process and didn't have time to process 100% Looking back on it, how do you feel?
Speaker 2:Because I wasn't in the room. From what you're saying and what it sounds like to me is that and was this a male or a female doctor? Female, female. And what it sounds like to me is the way that she said it was, also in such an emotionally detached way. Like it doesn't sound like there was any kind of preparation or I don't know how to tell you this, but we've got some problems. Like there was no real bedside manner.
Speaker 1:Dude, it's as if you were in the room For real. For real, it's as if you were in the room, because everything that you said is spot on. Wow, it was very emotionally detached. As a result, I became very emotionally detached, and the paradox of this whole thing is that when my wife first told me that I was going to be an expected dad, I mean it was the happiest day of my life. So then, to have that implanted in between, that day of finding out that I was going to be a dad and then finding out that the pregnancy was not viable, it completely shifted my relationship to this pregnancy, because, oh, if the first one is not going to stick, most likely then it's really not a big deal. And that's exactly how I approached it.
Speaker 1:So my wife went to, we went to the clinic, she went to get a DNC and she came back, and of course, I see that my wife is having a difficult time. In the back of my mind, though, that seed has already started sprouting roots and it started to bud. So I'm just, like you know, let's just weather this moment, let's just weather the storm very matter of factly, very emotionally detached, and I didn't realize how emotionally detached I was until one morning. My wife hadn't spoken to me Since that DNC. She had not spoken to me. She went into this cocoon. My wife was grieving and for someone who works in a space where I meet people who are grieving intensely and I have to forge a relationship with them instantly in order to be able to help them through their grief, in that moment I couldn't recognize that my wife was grieving. I couldn't recognize that I needed to not necessarily on the professional level, you know, put on my professional hat for my wife, but as a caring and loving husband, I couldn't connect to the grief and the pain that she was experiencing. Because what the heck are we surprised about? It's exactly as the doctor said the first pregnancy didn't stick, so it's not a big deal because the second one exponentially has a higher probability of sticking. So it is what it is.
Speaker 1:So one morning I'm getting ready to go to work, shodi hadn't spoken to me in a while and then I was getting frustrated because now I'm creating this reality in my head where she's shutting me out, where she's giving me the silent treatment, where she's upset at me, where she's and I'm thinking all these things about her and out of all the things that I thought. Never did it cross my mind to look at it from the other side of the fence where she was standing at, to see the hurt and the pain, because at that moment I didn't know how to do that. Or it's not that I didn't know, because, again, professionally, I do know how to do that. I couldn't recognize the need to do that because of those expectations that were set. So I blew up on her and I was like listen, man, like you need to talk to me. You need to do this.
Speaker 1:I grew up in a household where my parents used to give each other the silent treatment and all of this stuff and whatnot. And I'm looking at her and she just broke down crying, bro, and Chris, as a loving husband and man, when your lady starts crying, it gives you pause. It gave me pause. So now I'm like I still want to put the hammer down. But now I'm questioning oh shoot, did I strike a nerve? Did I strike the right nerve? Did I cross a threshold here? And she finally said to me why don't you just leave me alone? Because you're not giving me space to grieve, you're not giving me space to process the way that I need to process, and she laid into me in a way that Michelle has yet to lay into me, because I learned my lesson that day, bro, yeah yeah, facts, facts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I learned my lesson that day and when she finally opened up that little bit and I realized how hurt she was and how callous and insensitive I had been towards her, I was to her what that doctor was to me and us when she said those words and that was a hard pill to swallow. So then we eventually worked through it and we had small conversations enough to realize that we still wanted to try again to have a child. So we tried again and as a result of the first miscarriage, we were more careful, we were more tempered. The excitement of the announcement of the second pregnancy was less, significantly less than the excitement that I felt during the first pregnancy.
Speaker 2:What was that? We good.
Speaker 1:Yeah we good. One day we'll get into a professional studio and we won't have to worry about cars driving by.
Speaker 2:Strongly emotional conversation.
Speaker 1:And somebody's muffler just introduce itself.
Speaker 2:Mazel just driven literally right in front of the camera and then kept going yeah, yeah, here we go, yeah, yeah, so we we now here, we are at the place of the second pregnancy and we once again, yes, before we move on to the next pregnancy, if I could say this I feel like this is just this huge example of why it is so important, in whatever profession you're in, to be in the moment with people, because you have no idea about how your attitude can shift someone's entire life, because I'm just thinking about how this particular doctor, in just a few seconds, shifted for a moment your entire marriage it could have. It was one of those make or break things in your marriage. The way I'm thinking about it is almost like like an emotional concussion, because you just got hit with this news and because you know you're watching football or whatever and you see people get concussions and how they are dazed. They don't know where they are, they don't know what's up and down. Your mind is completely jarred and I feel like, emotionally, that's exactly what happened to you. Now you're just kind of going through this each and every day in this emotional concussion and it literally took your wife to shake you and wake you up.
Speaker 2:I'm amazed at how that just completely shifted things for you. And, like you were saying, you didn't you know, and you know I'm a pastor. So in the line of work that we both do you know, because I mean you're on the chaplaincy side of things, it's still ministry. There's this professional side of our lives and then there's like the real part of our lives and there's like a divider between those bad boys, and we do our best to make sure that those things are separate. So it makes complete sense that you wouldn't realize what's going on in your life because, a you're emotionally concussed, but B you're not at home, thinking professionally At home. You're not chaplain At home, you're just Kelly. Yeah, so Again. First of all, man, I'm just flabbergasted about all the things that took place, that I've taken some time to process what happened.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you saying it in that way. It's like an emotional concussion and you are like we could talk about that in literally for not just one episode. We could have a whole series of conversations on on just that point of the way that the health care professionals who work in these spaces, their words, can shift the lives of people in ways that they can't even begin to understand. Yes, on the other hand, what is also true is that I don't think that that doctor said what she said in the way that she said it, in a malicious way. Right, right, right, so, so, so that also needs to be. That also needs to be highlighted.
Speaker 1:It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it because I obviously have my own judgment about the way that she said it and the implications for me. But in terms of like if I had a telescope to penetrate and reach at her place, of motives and intentions, I don't think she woke up. That morning was like you know what? I know I'm going to see this couple today and I'm just going to f them up by saying this thing Like that, that didn't happen.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Right. So it's led me to this, to this place, of what you mentioned. What level of awareness and we're not going to be, we're not no one lives in that great level of awareness all the time. It's exhausting.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's exhausting, I get it, it's exhausting. However, this is where I've landed over the years and where I'm still at right now. This physician went to medical school and went through several practicums and landed in this spot, not because anybody forced her at least I don't think so but because it was inevitably a choice that she made, that this was the line of medicine that she wanted to practice. Inherent in that is the these moments where she can sit in front of a couple and say congratulations, guys, you are going to be parents. The pregnancy, the baby is healthy, it's measuring X amount of centimeters or weeks and here's your due date, here's your followup date. Great, you guys are doing awesome. Nothing to worry here, as well as hey, guys, this is not a viable pregnancy and I am so sorry.
Speaker 1:Inherent in her choice to practice medicine in that area, those two things are possibilities that make up her day to day reality in the practices that she, in the places where she practices. Right, that was her choice, michelle and I. We chose to one and a half children. Michelle and I did not choose to have a miscarriage.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So, yes, because we ended up in her practice because of something that we did not choose to do. It doesn't matter how many times you've already told somebody that one out of four pregnancies and in miscarriage, or that they're not, that their pregnancy is not a viable pregnancy, or I don't like it. It really doesn't matter to me because she's going to keep coming back to that practice every day. Perceivably, this is going to be my one and only time perhaps, here in front of you. So it does matter the words that come out of your mouth. Yes, it does matter how you say it. It does matter with what level of warmth and compassion you say it. It does matter if you say it in an emotionally detached way. It does matter if you say it as a matter of fact way. It also matters if you say it with a level of empathy and a level of sympathy and a level of sorrow and a level of consideration for the experience that the people who you're saying this to, and the implications of what it means to receive this life and to expect this life rather to create and expect this life like. It matters what that loss means to those people. It does matter. So that is the part that it forms part of this whole complicated environment, but it doesn't excuse medical professionals from lack of what you refer to as bedside manners. It's still okay for you to have bedside manners, because my wife and I walked away from receiving that.
Speaker 1:Don't be surprised if the first pregnancy doesn't stick. And to your point, I almost sabotaged my wife emotionally in a way that would have been very difficult to repair. And I say this now, bro, and I'll say it until I'm blue to the face the fact that Michelle trusted me with her body again so that we could become parents speaks more to the caliber of who my wife is. Come on, man, then. It does about me as a husband to her in that moment, because in that moment I was not loving to my wife, bro, in that moment I did not make good choices, I didn't care for my wife. In that moment, homie, I didn't, I didn't.
Speaker 2:And you know as something that me and Amber have said multiple times brokenness does not excuse bad behavior and in that moment, yes, you were broken, emotionally, concussed, like we said, but Michelle doesn't care Because did not care.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, yeah, you've been through some trauma. You were broken by what happened to you, from what the doctor said, but she needed you and you weren't there does not excuse the behavior even on your part, like you said, and I think what's great about this part of this conversation is and there could be some people, some guys that are listening to this podcast that are in this moment right now. Maybe they're just, maybe you're on, you're just researching uh, miscarriage stuff and you run across this, whatever. Pay attention to this part of the story because you being there emotionally for your wife or spouse or girlfriend, whatever it matters, it matters, it matters. You've got to be there in the way that they need you to be there.
Speaker 2:Like you were saying with Michelle, she's giving you this silent treatment and giving you that she's like I need my space. It is funny that she would say I need my space. I haven't even talked, like you said, but she's like I need my space. But the reason is because at that moment, you're more of a danger to her because you're not even acknowledging anything. You're not even really bringing anything to the table to help as far as she's been there.
Speaker 1:What do you say? Put a pin there, so, put a pin there, so, so here. So here's the other part of this whole thing. My wife needed me in a way that I couldn't realize. I didn't even realize in that moment that I was not tuning into what the implications of that loss was for me. I didn't have an awareness of that because my my systematic mind just skipped from this one is not viable. The second one would be viable, and that's what I said, and that's why I said what I said earlier. And Michelle told me that I was pregnant, that not not that I was pregnant, that she was pregnant, so surprise.
Speaker 1:The first time. That would have been a surprise. Congratulations, baby, you're pregnant. Yeah, oh, what, oh, what? No, no, sorry bro.
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 1:When she told me that she was pregnant. At that moment I was so elated because my imagination started to spark oh my gosh, I'm going to be a dad. Is it going to be a boy? Is it going to be a girl? I was hoping it was a girl and so, if it was going to be a girl, michelle doesn't want me to have any guns in the house, but she didn't say anything about any samurai swords. I'm going to get the samurai sword so I can defend my girl. Yes, and I'm going to get the ninja stars and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.
Speaker 1:And I started to create this whole reality in my head off of this one piece of news You're going to be a dad. And so all of my anticipation, all of my expectations started to grow as this baby was growing right. And my expectations and anticipation kept growing even after this child, this life stopped growing. But we didn't know yet. So I'm going through this whole thing and all of a sudden, this thing is dropped in the middle. Hey, don't be surprised if the first pregnancy doesn't stick. It created this divide between that expectation, that anticipation, that sense of that reality that was birthing in my imagination Boom, that just stopped. It just stopped. So then I couldn't connect where I was now, on the other side of that fence, to all of that excitement and anticipation that came before. So at no point did I stop to consider, kel, you were going to be were is the operative word, yeah, now you're not going to be anymore. And then give myself space, give myself permission to explore what that would be like for me.
Speaker 1:So I skipped that whole step, bro. I skipped it, and while my wife was going through it, I didn't have the wherewithal to realize that maybe this is a process that I also need to go through. Also Because, again, my analytic mind jumped straight from don't be surprised if the first pregnancy doesn't stick to assuming that the next one had an exponentially higher probability of being a viable pregnancy. So there is no time to grieve, right, there is no time to whatever. Like that's just stupid, you know what I mean. Like I don't have a reason to feel anything because it's just a matter of it's just a matter of trying again.
Speaker 1:And what guy is going to say no to more sex? Like we just, we just going to go ahead and do the do Right, right, you know what I mean. So so it's not. It really is not a big deal and it is absolutely a big deal. I didn't allow myself to go through that process because I didn't know that I needed to allow myself to go through that process, because I didn't know that I needed to know that I needed to allow myself to go through that process.
Speaker 2:And maybe that's the warning right there, you know, and I mean obviously I'm talking about this not getting after you, right, cause this is just. It's just what happened. We're just talking about this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just what happened you know, but a warning for for for our fellows out there listening to the podcast to make sure that you're going through the process, you know, not just to not write it off, but to take that time and take a step back for yourself because of what that is going to mean for that special someone in your life that is also going through it too.
Speaker 2:Because even for me, you know, of course, my story was a little different in how I was processing. I wasn't processing, I was just like I've got to take care of my wife, you know. So I still could have done more in terms of my own processing at the time, which would have probably helped me be more effective too. I think that's the warning in this part of the story is make sure you're taking your time and understanding what this loss means for you, because, again, like we said in the previous podcast, when you decide to have a child, like you just said, you're planning a future. Now that the child that you were planning on is gone, that entire world that you've created in your mind, which is a world, is now gone. That entire future is now gone. That should be grieved, you know. So the time must be taken.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is 100% as valid a loss as the, the physical loss of that baby, of that pregnancy. Yeah, yesterday, in fact, I, at work, I had been caring for this family whose Yesterday made the baby Three days old. So this part might be triggering for people. So, just kind of giving you a heads up. But this couple, the, they had received their baby Prematurely and when I first met them, the baby was only two days old and the baby Was in critical, critical condition, to the point that the medical team and this is something that I witnessed, the the team Was performing chest compressions on a two-day old child. So, so, just to give you a small piece of the visual and how critical this child was.
Speaker 1:Long story short, baby did end up passing away and I went to support the parents yesterday and the husband came out and when I met him on day one, he said to me, he pulled me aside and he said hey, how can I be supportive to my wife? And I basically just told him hey, you don't need to do anything extra, you being here with her is Enough. And I'm using serious air quotes when I say enough yeah, because there is no quantifying any of this stuff. But I said to him you being here, her, seeing that you're impacted as well, I'm all of those things. You're here, yeah, and so You're supporting your wife. Yesterday when I saw him again, you know I checked in hey, man, how have you been? And he's like, you know, I'm okay, he's a man of faith. And he was like I, I feel like I have an inner sense of, of peace, but I'm just, I'm just worried about my wife and I just want to make sure that I'm strong enough to to support her. And I remember saying to him that is what every Loving good husband and partner would want to do for their lady, for their spouse, yeah, for their partner.
Speaker 1:On the other hand, in conjunction to doing that, I said to him make an effort to not ignore or minimize what your experience of this thing, of this loss, is also. Yes, and you know he gave me that look like, yeah, I know, but that's not important right now. And so I I reiterated for him in a different way, because he better fact, he said to me he was like, yeah, but you know, she, she feels it in a different way. And I said to him you're absolutely right, she feels it in a different way and I spelled it out for him. I said she feels it in a different way because she carried the baby, because now the baby is dead and her body is still telling her that the baby is still here, the hormones are still there, her breasts are still producing milk, like her body hasn't caught on to to the reality that your baby is not here yet. And that is her experience.
Speaker 1:And I said to him and your experience is that from the moment that she told you that you guys were expecting this baby, you started thinking about what your life would be like with this baby. You started thinking about what it would be like to have another son, what kind of toys you would buy him, what, what kind of crib you would buy him, how his older brother would be with him, how his older sister would be with him. You started thinking about holding him. You started thinking about all of these things and now that the baby is no longer here, all of that reality that was so real in your mind has also died.
Speaker 1:Yeah and that is your experience. And he just looked at me, chris, and he was like that is exactly right, yeah, so, so I am more compelled now because this is something that I've just said about me and Just this, just the way that I see the world, yeah, but to actually have someone that I spoke to in that way, out of that conviction, and to have that person, that man, that father, in that moment, validate this suspicion, which is the driving force of this podcast and this platform altogether, makes me even more compelled. That it is absolutely, essentially important for you and I and other men who have gone through this experience, who have gone through the experience of losing a child at whatever point of that spectrum, to validate and acknowledge more than validate, because whether you validate it or not is inconsequential to me. That's my experience, yeah, but to now to acknowledge the fact that I had this whole world that was growing in my mind and I think we said it this way and and the first conversation with you last week, this baby was being the in our mind, as fathers in our heart, as fathers in our beings. Yeah, this child was growing in the womb of our imagination, yeah, yeah. And so, if we if, if we are going to acknowledge the loss in the physical womb of the mother, for God's sake, let's acknowledge the loss in the fizz, in the imaginative womb, in the emotional womb of the father. Not to say that mom doesn't have that either, right, but mom is already getting so much support because for her, the emotional aspect is Is given, yeah, it is assumed, it is actually taken for granted.
Speaker 1:For dads, on the other hand, it's not so apparent. Right and to, to see the look on that guy's face yesterday, when I said those words to him, bro it, I was surprised by his response Because I don't know if someone had actually ever Ever made that, helped him make that connection for himself in that moment. And so, like this is this is why I don't even, I don't even. I'm glad that you pause the conversation so that we can. We can get to this point Because I was just getting ready to jump into, you know, miscarriage number two of four or five.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but this is so, this is so rich and I feel very passionately about this. If you haven't picked up on that yet, like this is the reason why this matters to us. Yes, this is the reason why I am publicly calling this, this a double standard, and in our present society, men's mental health is important. Men's mental health is an area that has seen exponential growth in exposure and conversation, even though it still has very little resources. But we're becoming more aware of, you know, the the needs for mental health support at work and in all sorts of spaces. But here is this, here's this place, bro, yeah, where people are not making the connection on how this loss can significantly and severely impact a Man's, a dad's, mental health.
Speaker 1:Yeah and then that dad has to go to work, and then that dad is patted on the back and say, hey, now you got to go ahead and support this woman who has lost this baby and is experiencing this loss both physically and emotionally. But you, you get to keep your emotions under wrap, you get to keep it suppressed, because your primary job is to support her. Yeah, and that's the double standard. To me, that's a huge double standard. And a and a place where the ball is severely dropped.
Speaker 1:And so, again, this is not to like, excuse or condone any of the of the Coping, the harmful coping mechanisms of men who are dealing with all sorts of mental health Issues, and that it's not to condone any of that stuff, but to shine a bright-ass light on it and say, yo, this is, here's an area when everyone is pretending like it's not a thing. And so you can't. You may agree or disagree with this guy, but, heck, show a little bit of empathy. Yes, we're all Participants and why this guy is struggling in the way that he is. Yes, yes, thank you for coming to my TED Talk, bro.
Speaker 2:That was amazing and made me think. I just ran across this on tiktok today and it really speaks to this whole idea of who we are as men. Now it was hilarious. It's this dude I don't know if you've seen this on tiktok. It's just called be a man. And it's just this dude who just says these ridiculous things and it ends with be a man. And one of them was a hey, are you you sick? Don't call out of work, go to work sick and die on the job. Be a man.
Speaker 2:It was another way. It was like hey, does your back hurt? Well, don't do anything about it and complain about how much it hurts. Be a man like and it's just. This is short, ridiculous, this absolutely ridiculous Things. Right, but the reason that it's so funny, especially as a man, is because that's what we're taught Like. We are taught to be this way. We are taught to like the, like the. The joke behind the joke is revealing this truth that we are taught not to feel. And Not only are we taught not to feel, we're taught to act like nothing's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're supposed to care for everyone else, for everyone else's needs, because if someone else is hurting, we have to be the hero and help them. But what about when we hurt? When we hurt, be a man, bro. Be a man, right, be a man, be a man, yeah, and that's all you hear. Be a man, be a man, don't cry. Be a man, don't feel this. Be a man, you know. And we don't realize how much that has hurt us, and not just us, but it hurts us in our relationships because now we are hurting our partners and our kids and our real yes sir, yes, yes yes, you know, and we don't.
Speaker 2:We don't see it because on the outside, we are applauded for being this way, but in our homes, things are getting jacked up because we're not emotionally available to the people that we say we care about and and it's so important to make sure that we're there, and but the only way that you could be emotionally available, available to others, is if you're emotionally available to yourself. Yeah, it's so important. It's so important, man, I'm not trying to add to your TED Talk because you clearly have just you just wrote an entire chapter on that a second ago but just to add to what you're saying, man, and how important what you're saying is and, like you said, why this podcast is so needed. Because we're talking about the loss of the one thing that we, as men, pride more than anything in the world, and that's our children. Yes, we love our wives, but it's a different kind of love with your wife than with your child. You know that is that is, you know, as men, thinking about us as people that, like I mean, well, I mean, everyone's a creator, right, but we, as men, literally hold on to that idea of us working with our hands and creating things. Well, our child.
Speaker 2:For us, our child is the one thing is like our prized creation, our prized thing because it's a part of us. I said he, I mean he or she. I have two boys, so you know. But you're molding and you're shaping your children and you're trying to teach them about the world and especially when they grow up and they're successful, it's this amazing thing. Well now, for some of us, your prized possession, you never even got the chance to mold it, never even got the chance to meet your child, never got the chance to whisper in their ear, never got the chance to lift them up when they were hurting. You never even got the chance to be a bad parent. Facts it was gone, it's gone.
Speaker 2:And when you miss something like that, I look at God. You watch guys who are athletes, and especially when they get so close. You know I'm a Vikings fan, unfortunately. You know, many times Vikings have been to the NFC championship game in my lifetime and have lost. It hurts, it hurts, but I know it hurts more for the athletes because they're so close. They're right there, they've got dreams of holding the Lombardi trophy and it's gone.
Speaker 2:Y'all what you've experienced is more than a trophy. It's more than winning a championship. You've lost your future. You lost something that you were going to be able to hold and mold, something that you were going to be able to love that you already have love. That love was supposed to last for forever and it's gone. You have to grieve that. You have to take the time and go through the emotions with that, because something like that, when you drop it off, like you said, that's when things it can lead us to unhealthy things, unhealthy ways to cope, if we're not dealing with it. And we've got to make sure that we're dealing with things properly.
Speaker 1:Anyone who's listening to this conversation right now? Just attended two TED talks for free.
Speaker 2:For free, for free.
Speaker 1:I don't know if they're usually free anyway, but this is like. Where do we go from here?
Speaker 2:Let's see, it's been about an hour. We should probably wrap this episode up and come back. Your story is going to need a few parts, bro, so there's just so much to unpack. It's a good thing. It's a good thing, you know. Yeah, what we're going to do is next episode, let's come back and let's keep going with your story, man, and I think it's good, because you have so many different levels. There are different aspects that we're going to be able to pick out and different things that we're going to be able to see. So, yeah, yeah, let's come back next week.
Speaker 1:I'm going to ask myself the question that I asked you at the end of you sharing your story and just reflect on what this experience has been like for me.
Speaker 1:You know I've spoken about my story or this part of my story enough times that parts of it feels very familiar. It doesn't feel as uncomfortable to talk about it. In fact, the more I talk about it, the more confidence I gain in sharing more transparently, more bluntly, what it's been like. I think, for me today, what the biggest takeaway and realization that I'm having is that I have yet to sit in the disappointment of that pregnancy not materializing, wow. I have yet to do everything that we just said we should do. I have yet to do that, and to me that's the big takeaway and realization right now and I think that's significant. I think that's significant A lot of. So. People have asked me you know, what is the goal of this platform and what is the goal of this podcast? And I have difficulty just kind of narrowing it down to one thing or even a few things For me personally, what I enjoy about this process, and it's just episode two.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bro, yeah, episode two, it's just episode two.
Speaker 1:So what I enjoy about this process is that, in real time, in front of however large or small our audience is, I am processing through my own thing in real time and I'm discovering things about what I want to invite other dads into in the moment. So none of this is prefabricated, none of this is scripted, like the NFL and the NBA like none of it, none of it.
Speaker 1:I am. I am genuinely sitting here and, after having both my Ted talk and hearing your Ted talk, come to the conclusion of cool, and you have yet to do that. This now gives me homework to find a way and connect to that piece so that more discovery and more healing can happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that's real man, and I think that's what's cool about this.
Speaker 2:By the way, I caught what you said about the NFL there.
Speaker 2:It just sunk in a little late, but just saying, yeah, I think what's great about this is I completely understand, man, and I think that's what's awesome about this is this is, you know it's not like we're experts on this stuff Going and talking about this and getting these realizations, like you said, is happening to us in real time.
Speaker 2:That makes I feel like this so much more communal, because we're all going to be going through this together and our hope, of course, like we've said a billion, a billion times but, as one man said, repetition deepens the impression the point of this entire thing is so that we're able to start that healing process and start getting to that place where we are not just emotionally invested, but to getting to that place where we are grieving and thinking about these things and going over these moments of this great loss and allowing ourselves to be emotionally invested in those moments and for us to be able to go through, you know, live, or, for I mean for everyone. You're listening to this podcast. That makes it that much more real and, like I said, I think that's going to make this a much more communal experience for everyone.
Speaker 1:Bro, thank you for taking my hand and leading me on this journey. We're excited, I'm excited that you are alongside me in this journey. Like you said at the end of episode one, you wouldn't want to do this, or the beginning, I think it was you wouldn't want to do any of this with anybody else. And I said to you, my guy, I feel as strongly as you in that point as well. Episode two, bro, and I'm just like, yeah, man, that's, that's what it is. So I appreciate you and I really do, from the bottom of my heart. Just want to say thank you to everyone who has still stuck with us, even if this is the last episode that you hear. We thank you for giving us two hours of your life to check in this podcast, to consume this content, to engage with it, to let it challenge you. Whether you agree, disagree or you're neutral, it doesn't matter. We just thank you because you have hopped on to be a part of this journey.
Speaker 1:If you have a question, if you have a story you want to share, we just want to hear about what you think about this whole thing, whether it's something in particular that I or Chris has said. If you want to share all of your story, a snippet of your story, we'd be delighted to have you on the show. And if you don't want to make a public appearance just because of your own reasons, we respect that. But if you want us to read to the larger audience what your thoughts are, what your experience is, we would have a whole episode dedicated just to read your story out loud, without even engaging with so, anyway, that we can get your story out there and you can begin to process these things that we're talking about, We'd be delighted to contact, to be in contact with you, so you can reach out to us at the miscarriagedad, at gmailcom. You can find us on IG on the miscarriage dad, on Tiktok, the miscarriage dads. Don't ask why the discrepancy, it just happened that way.
Speaker 2:Just roll with it, guys. Just roll with it yeah just roll with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just roll with it. We're dads at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:I did. Anything else you want to say, dad, I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dad.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, man, Look, everybody just just like, subscribe, share in all the places with all the things, and let's make this, let's make this a community. Let's make this a community. We want, like you said, the comments and everything so we can interact.
Speaker 1:Let's do this thing, man, appreciate you. My guy Again. My name is Kelly, I'm Chris, and we will tune in and talk to you guys on the next episode.