Welcome to episode 3 of The Miscarriage Dads!
In this conversation, I unpack the deep impact multiple miscarriages has had on my relationship, and the guilt I felt for not being able to fully comprehend my wife's experience. I talk about the emotional roller coaster ride of keeping hope alive amidst despair and grief, sharing deeply personal moments like a vivid dream of my wife giving birth. We also touch on the racial tension we faced during these sensitive moments and how it amplified our already agonizing journeys.
Throughout our discussion, we underscore the importance of communication in relationships, particularly during such challenging times. I share how opening up about my pain brought my wife and I closer and allowed us to nurture a stronger bond. In the final part of our conversation, we extend a heartfelt invitation to others who have been through similar experiences, reaffirming our commitment to creating a safe and supportive space for all.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Welcome to episode 3 of The Miscarriage Dads!
In this conversation, I unpack the deep impact multiple miscarriages has had on my relationship, and the guilt I felt for not being able to fully comprehend my wife's experience. I talk about the emotional roller coaster ride of keeping hope alive amidst despair and grief, sharing deeply personal moments like a vivid dream of my wife giving birth. We also touch on the racial tension we faced during these sensitive moments and how it amplified our already agonizing journeys.
Throughout our discussion, we underscore the importance of communication in relationships, particularly during such challenging times. I share how opening up about my pain brought my wife and I closer and allowed us to nurture a stronger bond. In the final part of our conversation, we extend a heartfelt invitation to others who have been through similar experiences, reaffirming our commitment to creating a safe and supportive space for all.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
When she said those words to me. It cuts so deep because now I have an avenue and window into what this all means to my life. So the guilt that I felt, that I had started to feel because of how I mishandled that first one, just deepened and magnified when she said those words to me because I wasn't able to cultivate an environment for her during the first one where she felt love and appreciated and respected and all of that. And so now that I m feeling this, I almost felt guilty for feeling something. What gives me the right to feel something now? Is it because I had that stupid dream? And so now that that stupid dream didn't become a reality, now, all of a sudden, I m like, oh, whoa is me.
Speaker 1:This is her second time. This is the Miss Carriage Dads Podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads, openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miss Carriage Dads Podcast. My name is Kelly and I m your host. My name is Chris, I m your co-host and we are so thankful that you have chosen to come back and hang out with us during another episode of Two Dads who are talking about and sharing our experiences of how early pregnancy loss has impacted us. And so, here at the Miss Carriage Dads Podcast, what we re trying to do is normalizing the well, humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as fathers. And so we thank you for coming along this journey with us. This is episode three, and if you've stuck with us for these first three episodes, you are the true MVP. So thank you, thank you, thank you very much, chris. What's going on, man? How you doing Good man, I'm good.
Speaker 2:I am feeling a little better, getting over my cold. For the most part it's still there just a little bit, but just a little tinges.
Speaker 1:I hear it just slightly just slightly, but you sounding good man it gives you. I don't know if the same thing happens for you, but when I get a cold my voice deepens a little bit and I'm like you know, I don't mind being sick for a little bit longer, just cause Just a little bit. Yep, you're right, it does deep in against that nice good like you know like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, where you just like you talking from there.
Speaker 2:Right, not all high sounding scared, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause sometimes my voice just sounds so squeaky, bro, that I'm just like is that really me?
Speaker 2:I mean, it's me but I don't listen to myself ever, bro. I mean, I think your voice sounds great. It's all velvety smooth. Nine is much more like cotton.
Speaker 1:You know, I mean it's but like Pima cotton though.
Speaker 2:Actually I was more so thinking like that rough cotton mix. No, that's like the resembles cotton, but it's kind of itchy.
Speaker 1:You know that's the Pima cotton from like Peru or something bro. I don't even know if that's a thing, but it's going to be a thing now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't like it. Yeah, okay, I'll take it. I'll take it, hey, listen whatever.
Speaker 1:So listen, man, we've been having a good time, yeah, good, okay, does this feel? Does it feel a little weird to use those type of words, given the context of the podcast, the conversations that we have? It just felt weird to me just now to be like yo, I've been having a good time, talking about what's been what you've described as the worst day of your life and what has been the worst stretch of my life by far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know what, man? I think it does fit, you know, and I get what you're saying, because it's like when you first say like wait, what do you mean? This is fun, yeah, like you know. But hey, man, it's even for us. We've been friends for a long time, long time, yeah, but I feel like this is pulling us even closer, you know. So there's the building up aspect. That's fun. The healing aspect part of it is fun. It's difficult to go through.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like and for those of you watching, I don't want you to think that we just sit down and then do this and there's a walk away. It's draining to talk about.
Speaker 1:It is bro, you know.
Speaker 2:It is really is draining to talk about, but at the same time I look forward to it because I know that out of it, more healing is going to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:So I think that's kind of the part that that does make it fun. And we get to sit there out and you know we talk, do our serious talk, but it's nice to be able to, hey, throw a little joke in there just real quick. You know obviously nothing off color, but enough to make it comfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, yeah, so I think those words are accurate man, yeah, I'm buying it, I am picking up what you're putting down for him. We've had some time in between conversations and, to your point, after episode two I was drained. Bro Ski, like it's. It's exhausting to talk about this stuff for as much as I've spoken about it already and different platforms, just to live in that space as frequently as we've been living in this space since we started the podcast. You're right, it's, it's exhausting. But what I've enjoyed about it are the moments of, like, the dots connecting. Yeah, oh, in real time too. Oh man, I hadn't thought about that, I hadn't seen that, this hadn't made sense to me, the significance of whatever. So all of those things have been fruitful in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the processing that we're going through, real time, doing this, means a lot, means a lot, cause, like you said, we haven't necessarily taken the time to process these things. So, going through this and telling our stories and retelling our stories, and then trying to look at it and I don't even think, even with the questions that we're asking each other through this, it's not for the purpose of entertainment, it's just to talk about it, like hey, what were you thinking At that time? How did that feel? Going through that? Because these are things that we probably didn't think about and, like I was saying, it helps us process it.
Speaker 1:So we left off last week with me getting ready to jump into the second miscarriage. You, pausing in that moment of pause, just opened up this great conversation that needed to happen and I'm so glad that you paused it, I'm so glad that we had the conversation and that's one of those takeaways that I'm like man. It's not just for me personally. It's not just a matter of telling the story for the sake of telling the story. It's a matter of processing, like putting my feet even though I lived it right Putting my feet back on the ground inside of the story and just looking at different places that I had not looked before, because clearly there is a system of thoughts and in a sequence of events that shape that formed the story that I tell, and so I'm accustomed to it, especially since I've been talking about it for a while now. But through this process, it's like I want to say this and I feel comfortable saying that, but I haven't yet explored this part over here. So last week I just want to reiterate that again, man, what you did last week was so powerful for me personally Because, if you recall, at the end of the episode I was like man. All of the things that we said in terms of how we ought to process and allow ourselves to go through this process. Bro, at that moment I realized I hadn't done it yet about that first miscarriage. So hopefully we can continue to stumble across moments like that, but it's been helpful for me to have that visual in mind since last week. We're going to immerse ourselves back in the story, but I really need to make sure that I put my feet on the ground and, instead of rushing through, I'll share this quick story with you.
Speaker 1:Man, in 2006, I was studying abroad in Italy, in Florence. One morning I am on my way to class. Typical American, I am booking it, bro. I wasn't even late for class, I was early as hell. I was just trying to get there early enough so I can hop on the internet and like do God knows what. So I'm booking it. I am. When I broke, I am booking it.
Speaker 1:The walk from my apartment to the school was probably 10 minutes. Yeah, probably 10 minutes, not even that much If that. I was walking like a Ferrari amongst all the people who were just like strolling. And I remember, off in a distance maybe about 25, 30 yards in front of me, I seen this couple old Italian man, old Italian woman my man had his hands on his back, like stereotypical movie scene of two Italian older people, just kind of like strolling, and for some reason, in the population of people in front of me, bro, they stood out because they were just coasting, they were just strolling and chilling and I am like I'm booking it.
Speaker 1:I got to get to the school and hop on the internet and that right, right, for some reason I remember them getting closer and closer and closer and closer to me until I passed them, zoom right past them. And as soon as I zoom right past them, I was like hold on, man, that's the folks that I saw like two minutes ago, maybe about 25 to 30 yards in front of me. How the heck did I catch up to them so quickly? And that's when I took notice of how fast I was walking. So then I was like, okay, you know what, this afternoon after school I'm going to come back to my apartment and then I'm just going to go back out into the city and I'm just going to walk, like that old Italian man was walking, and let's see what happens. So after school I get back to the apartment, I drop my book bag and then I go out, I put my hand behind my back and I'm just strolling. Bro, did you know that?
Speaker 1:In my stroll I started to notice things that I was walking past on a daily basis at that time, that I had never seen before little boutiques, little restaurants near where I was staying at, just like little interesting things, little graffitis on the wall. I mean just like really interesting things, dude, because I forced myself to. Kel, look to the left, kel, look to the right. Hey, yo, just kind of check out what's going on here. You haven't walked past the river in a while, so why don't you just go? Just go see what's down there? Yo, I started to see the city, that section of the city, and so much came to life because actually took my time to look around. I wasn't in a rush and I was actually in the spirit of exploring my surroundings. And so I say that to say that's something similar to what happened last week when you said hey, man, before you jump into the second miscarriage, like let's talk about this thing right quick.
Speaker 1:So that's the image that comes to mind for me, like I need to make sure my feet are on the ground, my hands are behind my back and I'm strolling.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful man, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Poetic yeah, yeah, whoo, that should be a poet. You should or work for Pixar yeah. All right, dude, so if you're down for it, I'll pass it over to you and you let you. Let us know where we headed to.
Speaker 2:Okay. Well, man, I think since we talked about your first experience last time, let's delve into your second one. So go ahead and you pick up at wherever you think the story should. You know. I don't necessarily know if you have to revisit last week's in order to pick up, but if you do, I think that's fine. You know, but pick up wherever it is that you need to pick up in order to get us to that second miscarriage.
Speaker 1:If this is you jumping into this point of the podcast, listen to last week's episode so that everything that I'm going to say now can make more sense to you. So, headed into the second pregnancy, michelle and I were more. We were more tempered, and I think that's a part of this whole thing that is becoming more significant for me now, chris, because after that first announcement of a pregnancy that resulted in a miscarriage, none of the other announcements meant the same. None of them had the same level of excitement, the same level of anticipation not to say that I was not excited, but it was not that level of excitement that, oh man, I'm going to be a dad, because that dream of becoming a dad the first time just came crashing down as a result of the first miscarriage. So Michelle said that we were pregnant again and I was like, okay. One thing that I didn't mention last week was when she announced to me the first time that I was going to be a dad. She did it by giving me this onesie. So she gave me this onesie that said congratulations, you're going to be a dad. In fact, we recently found a onesie again. Yeah, we recently found it. So maybe in an upcoming episode. I'll have it here with me and then I'll show you it. But so after that first miscarriage, or before then, like I used to sleep with that onesie under my pillow like bro, you couldn't touch that onesie because that was my connection to my baby. And then the miscarriage happened and we lost that pregnancy. So that onesie just went into one of the drawers. Wow.
Speaker 1:So the second miscarriage. The second time she said that she was pregnant. I brought the onesie back out, but again it wasn't the same level of excitement. It wasn't the same level. It was me trying to create a same or a similar level of connection to that first pregnancy, which made it weird because that onesie represented that first pregnancy. But now I'm trying to apply it to the second one and so it just felt I was trying to feel connected in some way, because I felt so disconnected for reasons that we already explored. We go through the same motions pregnancy test reveal positive, cool. Hey, when are you going to make an appointment with your doctor? She made an appointment with her doctor and all of the blood work is showing that her pregnancy hormones are increasing, so she's pregnant, all of that stuff. And then we go for the ultrasound and there's no heartbeat. What's different about this one is that, because of the expectation that I had in the first one, again go back and listen to that first episode, which is episode two. Because of that, don't be surprised if the first one is not viable, and I had built in my head that the second one was definitely going to be the one. Hearing those words now for the first time for me, I was crushed, bro. That pain that I felt was something that I had never felt before, because I was sure that this second one was going to be my baby.
Speaker 1:Here's the other part about this. I'm someone who has vivid dreams at times, but I don't buy into like interpreting dreams or what the significance of a dream is. I just take notice of wow, I had a really vivid dream. So let me just be open to what might be happening, without necessarily trying to go deep into like deciphering and that kind of stuff. Bro, this one time I dreamt in black and white. I don't know if you've ever dreamt in black and white, wow, no, yeah, dude, it trippy, trippy, trippy. One of the best dreams I had in black and white. Yeah, dude, it was great. It was great I also had. Now that we're here. I also had this dream that I was a samurai.
Speaker 2:Oh no, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was like a samurai mixed with a Western type movie. Like I remember the dream. Like I came sliding down this pole, I had my samurai sword. You know, I did my thing and I rescued the girl. I don't even know who the chick was, but I rescued the girl.
Speaker 2:That's what she said. That's the important thing.
Speaker 1:And I'm walking out of this warehouse where I legit went kill Bill in the warehouse, bro. So I'm walking out of this warehouse and I have my sword in hand and shorty you know, I'm carrying shorty literally walking off into the sunset. And once I get further away from this big old warehouse with all these mulated bodies, the whole thing just blows up boom, and then it's just like this freeze frame, like a Western bro. That was a dream of mine. That was a dream. I was like yo. I woke up and I was like okay, what's going on here?
Speaker 2:No more burgers before bed, that's what. So that is, or maybe more burgers.
Speaker 1:Or maybe whatever, Whatever.
Speaker 2:Yo, that's so awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, like I've had some vivid, vivid dreams. So I say all that to say. When Michelle said that she was pregnant the second time, I had so wanted to be a girl dad that I had this vivid dream. And here's the dream. I dreamt that I was in a delivery room. It felt like a delivery room because in the dream my wife had gone into labor. Now, I never saw Michelle's face, but the woman who was going into labor in the dream I knew that was my wife.
Speaker 1:So I am standing at a maybe a good five to 10 feet away from where she is, like laying back on this chair and about to push our baby out, my baby out. But in the dream, even though I was close enough to where she was, it felt like I was far away. So then I'm trying to get to her in time to catch my baby. And in the dream I remember someone saying are you gonna hold the baby? And there was this male nurse who was in front of her. And I see the male nurse and in my head I'm like there's no way I'm gonna let another man catch my baby. So I'm trying to make my way to my wife in time for me to catch this baby. I get there and she's pushing, and she's pushing, and she probably pushed like three or four times and outcomes the most beautiful, chris, man, bro, I'm talking about it now and I'm seeing it.
Speaker 1:The most beautiful creature I have ever seen. This baby had the clearest, most bluest eyes I had ever seen in my life and the baby was white. And in the dream it didn't matter to me that the baby was white you know what I mean Like, cause obviously I'm a black man but in the dream it was like there was no sense of Ayo, who baby that is? Nah, that was my baby, and it was a baby girl, bro, chris. It was a baby girl, bro, and she looked at me with those beautiful, big, rounded, expressive blue eyes. My guy, once I held that baby in my hands in that dream, the emotions that weld up inside of me I can't even describe, bro. I felt like I was like my feet were leaving the ground, chris, like my entire being was just awakened with the love that I felt for this creature at that time and I just started to cry, bro. And as I'm beginning to cry in the dream, I wake up and then I start to cry like in real life, yeah, yeah. So I was like, oh my God, I am going to have my baby girl. This is me in real life now. When I woke up from that dream, I was like I'm gonna have my baby girl. Like there's no ifs or buts about it, like I'm gonna have my baby girl.
Speaker 1:So when we get to the ultrasound and there is no heartbeat, I am crushed, bro. I am devastated, because now in my mind again, I'm not someone who tries to decipher dreams or whatever, but that was too real. Yeah, it just felt too real. Like the divide between real life and dream life was blurred, bro, especially after me waking up, even though I woke up without a baby in my arms. But the emotions that I felt in that dream carried over into real life and I was like I'm gonna be a girl dad. So at that moment I was just like disoriented, like what is going on? What do you mean? There's no heartbeat. This can't be happening. Because the dream that I had a couple of nights ago, I mean it was too real for it to end up in a miscarriage. So that's one layer. The other layer is because of the pain that I felt at that moment.
Speaker 1:Now that opened my eyes to. Oh my God, this is what my wife was experiencing during the first time that we were here. How could I be so blind, how could I be so out of tune with this pain that I'm now feeling for the first time. She's feeling it for the second time, so this is what she was feeling when I was unrelenting in trying to get her to open up to me and not respecting her grief during the first. Kel, you are an absolute. Forgive, my French bro, but I was like Kel, you're an absolute dick. Like. You are an asshole of all assholes, because this is what you like, this is what she was going through, man, and you couldn't even realize that. Like, what is, bro? The self-deprecating voice inside my head had a megaphone and it was just shouting loud messages man, dude, you're all sorts of things, all sorts of things, chris.
Speaker 1:So now I am, I'm in the space of disorientation. Am I? Is this ever gonna happen for me? Am I ever really gonna be a dad? Because this is back to back now, like, am I even meant to be a father?
Speaker 1:And this is the moment, this is the first time that I started asking some deep questions, some existential questions about myself, about my faith, about God, about the whole nine dude, am I being punished for the choices and decisions that I made back when I was younger? I started reliving times of previous relationships that I had with previous girlfriends and stuff like that, one in particular, who I did not necessarily end up treating with respect and I was like yo is this God's way of getting back at me for the way that I treated these women in my life? You know what I mean. Like, is this happening because I don't have a relationship with my father, because I'm resentful towards well, at that time I wasn't resentful towards him, but because I used to be resentful towards my father and I used to think that when I become a father, that I'm going to be a much better man than he ever was. And so is this God's way of like smacking me upside ahead and saying, hey, yo, bro, relax with all that stuff? In fact, here is this curve ball that I'm gonna throw you. Let's see how you handle it. Like, what is the meaning of all of this? I couldn't find meaning in any of the things that I was feeling and that were happening at the time. You know what does this mean for Michelle, and I remember you know, as a result of now better understanding how to relate to her.
Speaker 1:Now that we were in this familiar territory again, I gave her her space to grieve and to process. I checked in on her. My wife is so gracious. She also checked in on me and we started having, you know, little conversations here and there at the time, checking in on each other. And, bro, I'll never forget these words she said to me. She said we were in our bedroom talking and she said to me I feel like, instead of my womb being a place that sustains life, it's only a place that produces death. And when she said those words to me, it cuts so deep. Yeah, because now I have an avenue and window into what this all means to my wife.
Speaker 1:So the guilt that I felt, that I had started to feel because of how I mishandled that first one, just deepened and magnified when she said those words to me Because I wasn't able to cultivate an environment for her during the first one where she felt love and appreciated and respected and all of that. And so, now that I'm feeling this, I almost felt guilty for feeling something, because man like, what gives me the right to feel something now? Is it because I had that stupid dream? And so now that that stupid dream didn't become a reality, now all of a sudden I'm like, oh, woe is me. This is her second time. So all of this is happening in my head, bro. So I don't know if you have any questions, because I'm just gonna keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no man, I'm just thinking about everything that you've been saying and going back to the beginning, about what you were saying about having that onesie that you were putting under your pillow wasn't going anywhere, and then, when you lost the first child, you just put it away, which at first, I think is very emblematic of how you were handling that first situation. That's a good point bro, you just put it away, that's a good point yeah, Whoa, Chris bro.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, bro, you just put it in a way that you described it Again kind of paints a picture of that, because you just pulled it back out, like you were just waiting to pull it back out that second time and you did. You just pulled it back out and you from what I'm hearing, it sounds like at the very beginning of all of this you were really forcing yourself to get excited and incombinated in that dream. You pulled it back out, you were trying to force that connection there again and then that dream came and, like you said, obviously we're not about to sit here, talk about the spiritual nature of dreams and blah, blah, blah, just thinking about it, just purely off what is going on with you mentally. It makes complete sense that you would have that dream, because that's where you were pointing your mind to, you were trying to make that connection and finally you have this dream and you grab onto it because you've been trying to make this connection, which makes it all that much more painful when you go into that room again and the thing that you now thought was sure, because it was confirmed by your dream, is now snatched away. That is like trying to climb up to Mount Everest, getting to the top and realizing that you weren't even climbing anything. That is hurtful.
Speaker 2:And then, from there, piling on more guilt because now, like you said, you're thinking back on what things were like.
Speaker 2:You're thinking back on how things must have been for your wife, and now you hear her say that, and again, when she says that, she is telling you how she feels. And it is so interesting and I think this is something that's really important to point out is how we, as men, do feel doubly guilty when we see our wives are significant others, or those that are special, going through this Because, like you said, you didn't even feel like you had the right to feel that way A because of how you handle things the first time, but B because now, all of a sudden, you had a very small insight into what it is that she was going through and how she felt about her own body. Now you have this guilt of oh no, I wasn't there the first time and now I'm here the second time, but I'm still. I feel like I've allowed this, like how did you navigate that overall feeling of guilt and is that something that you've been able to work past? Because I feel like that's something that sticks with you for a long time.
Speaker 1:Hearing you say what you said, in the way that you said it again, is just connecting so many different things for me In that moment. I don't think I I don't think I knew how to handle any of it. What I knew that I didn't want to do again was what I did the first time. So I knew that for a fact. I knew I didn't want to treat my wife in such a way that resembles anything from the first experience. If that meant me holding my feelings to myself, if that meant me creating an environment for her to open up and express her feelings and what have you, and connect with her in ways that I didn't before, then I would do that. But it didn't feel right for me to voice anything of my own because in my head I had, because of the perception of. This is the first time that I am feeling this, even though this is our second miscarriage. This is her second time in two pregnancies. This is my first time in two. This is her second in two, so we're not even on the same plateau.
Speaker 1:That was my perception and, in my mind, I allowed myself to let that dictate what I did and what I didn't do, and how I proceeded to be supportive to her at the expense of the things that I was feeling.
Speaker 2:I feel like not only that, because I think this is a big thing with us as men, when our spouses have a miscarriage, lose that baby the guilt of, of course, wishing you could do more, but also the guilt of feeling for yourself If that makes sense it makes one.
Speaker 1:It makes total sense, dude, because what you're talking about is the thing that I'll name it. This is the second time that she is experiencing this. This is what she says she feels like emotionally. This is the way that she feels like she's relating to her body right now her ability or inability to sustain life in her womb. Bro, I don't have to deal with that. I don't have to deal with that. Who gives me the right? What gives me the right to say anything? Right, I mean, we could talk about, so let me just fast forward to solidify the point. So then we go to the second DNC, and this is when things just started to open up for me. We get there. I am, bro. I am sitting there in that small room with her with the weight of the world on my shoulder, because I'm grieving the fact that we've lost another pregnancy. I'm asking myself all sorts of questions about who I am as a man. I'm not even able to give my wife a healthy sperm. You feel me? This is me. These are the thoughts in my head. I'm feeling horrible because I didn't support her during that first miscarriage and the way that she needed to be supported. Bro, I am feeling the weight of the world on my shoulders.
Speaker 1:We're in this very small room and we're waiting for the physician to walk in, to get her consent so that he can take her back to have this DNC, this procedure to remove the tissue from her body. We're not saying anything, we're just there, we're holding her hand and when the physician walks in, I let go of her hand. He walks in and he has this. I don't know if she was a fellow or resident, but he has somebody else with her. Now this is a white physician who walks in. The person who is with her is a black woman. The room is so small that she physically cannot fit in the room with the door closed.
Speaker 1:We're in a small room. We're in a small room because the door behind where Michelle is sitting is the OR. I'm sitting with my back towards a wall. I'm so close to Michelle that we were able to hold each other's hand from that distance. Homie walks in and there's a little stool off to the right side of Michelle and he sits on the stool. Now the room is really small, right, so I understand that the way that you kind of position yourself in the room it matters. But Homie walks in, he grabs the stool, he looks at me, he grabs the stool and he positions himself with his back toward me and then he starts talking to Michelle and he starts asking her all these questions and taking his assessment and explaining the procedure and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1:The resident or fellow or whoever she was, she's sitting, she's standing there at the door, and so I'm waiting for the moment where this man gives a word of empathy or word of some type of word to acknowledge my presence in the room, being there with my wife. So I look at her and I don't remember why. I looked at her and she looked at me. We made eye contact and then she did this she nodded, she acknowledged me. So I was like okay, so I am here, somebody sees me here, I am seen. This man speaks to my wife, he gets her consent, he gets up, he walks out of the room and he doesn't say a single word to me.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Bro, it's as if I was not in the room. Wow, it's as if I didn't exist, because the person that he came to see and talk to was sitting across from me on that chair. So it doesn't matter who's in there, he only has one focus that person. It doesn't matter why we're here, he only has one job get her consent to get her back there and do this thing.
Speaker 1:Very matter of factly, so the fact that the the, the woman who was with him, saw me, we made eye contact. She nodded and acknowledged me with how I was feeling, made me feel like I was human for the first time. Wow, it made me feel like I had a reason to feel the things that I was feeling. She didn't say a word to me, bro. She just saw me and just nodded her head in acknowledgement, that's it. I don't know if she was trying to, you know, scratch her, her, her, bro. I don't know if she did, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, yeah, it doesn't matter. The fact that we made eye contact and then she nodded in acknowledgement, in contrast to what homeboy did, that meant the world to me.
Speaker 2:Because of the way that I was feeling, right, and if you could just pause for a minute because in that interaction right because now we have these two interactions in both of these miscarriage stories where we have awful bedside manner, the first time it's the woman who was very cold, matter of fact, about it. Again, same thing Kelly's been saying go back, listen episode two, so you can get caught up. But now, this time it's a man and, like you said, not just any man, it's a white man. I don't want to call it bro crow, but there is kind of a thing between men when we just have an understanding, where we acknowledge each other, especially if it's a situation like I know, if I'm in a room and I am supposed to interact with someone's wife, talk about I Knowledge the husband's presence, talk about it. It has nothing to do with ownership of a woman or anything nothing.
Speaker 2:It's just respect, simple respect for who this man is in her life. There is an authority not authority over a woman, they'll get it twisted but there is a thought and authority that that man has in that room. Legally. That me also needs to be respected, mm-hmm, because that is her husband. Now, even let's, let's get out of the legal part, let's say it's just a boyfriend, doesn't matter, doesn't matter that person's significant other is there. And If I'm going to be speaking to this, this woman, this, this woman who was going through this, I Must acknowledge that special someone that is with her in the room because it's special to her, but also because there is something that he is getting ready to do that is so sacred in terms of what has happened, the things that he has to ask, the areas that he needs to touch that are sensitive, and I don't want to say it's like asking for permission, but showing that respect between men as it's just an unspoken rule.
Speaker 1:I agree 100%, dude, like even me in my practice, where I work at Mm-hmm, when I walk into a room in fact, this happened to me not too long ago I walked into a room and there's the kiddos mom who's there? So obviously she's the only one in the room. I'm talking to her, not a problem. The door opens and Her husband walks in. You know, I stopped talking to her for a little bit. I introduced myself to him, shake his hand, get him caught up in the conversation yes, that was going on before he walked in. And then, as I pick up from where I left Off with her, I'm looking now at both her and him and I'm making sure that I'm having eye contact with both of them and Addressing him, addressing her, asking him questions, giving him an opportunity to talk, while also so it's just a matter of there are multiple people in the room. Even though you came to talk to one person, it doesn't hurt to just look at the other person, to just acknowledge the other person, to just ask a simple question Like who is this person? Is this your husband? Is this your boyfriend? Is this your, your partner? Is this your friend? If this your brother, is this like? Who is this other being that's in the room? It's, it's not. It's not that hard, bro, not at all. It's really not that hard. You know what I mean. So he's not acknowledging my.
Speaker 1:My presence in the room at the time Compounded with how I was feeling about myself at the moment internally, yes, yes, solidified for me that I had legitimately no reason to be feeling the things that I'm feeling, because, clearly, the only person who is important in this whole equation is my wife.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And so that reinforced even further for me the need to withhold what my expressions could be, because now there was this fear factor that started to develop in my mind, being fearful of saying anything, and that was both an internal thing as well as an external thing. Yeah, right, like there were internal reasons why I felt that way, because if I open my mouth and say something, is she going to be like, really, you're gonna feel this way now, after you know what happened, how you treated me the last time, and not to say that my wife is that way because she's not. That was just the reality in my mind, right, the the fear that produced the fear of speaking up because of that. And then now there's this External factor of this person who comes in, this doctor, this physician who comes in, who's gonna vacuum out of my wife my child, yes, yes, and he doesn't even give me the decency of Looking at me as the father of this life that is not materialized.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I got her bro that hurt.
Speaker 2:I gotta take it a step further. Um, because I think we will be doing all of our viewers at the service, whether you're white or black, to acknowledge that racial tension that's there, because what Our white brethren have to understand and I say brethren because if you don't try to listen to this, you don't understand, and that doesn't include you before a white brethren, you have to understand the history behind something like that, an interaction like that, because this does go back to slavery in terms of the master, whoever. How you are interacting with your slaves, how you are interacting with black people, right Um, their property, they are not human. In that moment, you said I. It took me looking at this other Black woman and her nodding and acknowledging my presence to feel human. There's that other level of it, because here is a white man in a position of power who, like you said, is now getting ready to to suck out your unborn child. This is something that would happen all the time back then, and it wasn't because of an unborn child, it was I'm getting ready to sell y'all and sell y'all to different places.
Speaker 2:It's a very deep-seated issue and for my white brothers that are listening to this, please make sure that when you are going around, especially when you have you, have you I'm sure a lot of you guys are gonna have your black friends and all kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:If you've met a black woman and that black woman is married, acknowledge that, that black man. I'm not saying that you have to acknowledge that he's black. I'm saying make sure that you acknowledge him, because in those situations it is a lot deeper and that that pain runs a lot harder because that element is now placed on top of it. So I'm not trying to alienate anyone from this podcast, but I think it's important to make that point and make sure that that is said, because that is an extra hurt that is piled on top of it. It's like Rubbing more salt into the salty wound already. But getting back to what you were saying, kelly, and saying how hurt you were Just by that interaction, how did that affect the rest of that procedure for you, the rest of that day? And obviously I want you to move forward with the story. But just kind of keeping that in mind, like how did that impact your mindset through the rest of that procedure, the rest of that day?
Speaker 1:What was the saving grace is that even michelle took notice of what that interaction was like. Um, because, when he walked out, I just looked at her and, bro, I felt so defeated at that moment and I just looked at her and then she said to me did that really just happen? Um, so her saying that reset everything for me. Oh, okay, so I'm not making this up, I'm not over exaggerating here. She saw that there was no way, shape or form that this person could walk into this room and not acknowledge me. But she saw it happen. She saw it so much so that she was like you need to write when they send us. She said when they send me the, the survey Of how, the visit, when she's like I'm gonna make, I'm gonna forward it to you so that you can respond to it and make sure you Write about this, this event. So she saw it. That meant everything to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, because I didn't make it up, I'm not over exaggerating, I'm not letting what happened before Magnify something so small. No, it's not small, it's, it's a big deal like it happened, yeah, so so that was that when I said earlier that that was when my eyes really started to open up about what this experience is like from the standpoint of Me as a father. Like that was the. That's where the seed was planted. Mmm, I can't be the only one who has had this experience. Yeah, I can't be the only one who comes in feeling whatever it is. I'm feeling for the reasons that I'm feeling those things and not have someone at least Acknowledge, not have someone at least consider that hell, I'm hurting too.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can't be the only one, yeah, it's I. I just, I couldn't fathom that. I, I couldn't, I couldn't sit there and and especially the fact that I had to write, you know this thing, this Retell the story in the survey that, honestly speaking, I don't think it went anywhere. You know what I?
Speaker 2:mean, I think you was just like yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, tell us how the visit went, and then I made this complaint and it was like cool.
Speaker 2:Thanks for letting us know and yeah, I mean because I'm sure on there and oh, I was just busy that day, sorry, you don't have the luxury of just being busy that day.
Speaker 1:Again, I'm gonna go back to what I said last episode. You chose to be there. Yeah, I didn't choose to be here. I didn't choose to be here, mm-hmm, I didn't choose to have a miscarriage. My wife didn't choose to have a miscarriage. We didn't choose to be here. We would. We would have rather never met that guy. Yeah, we would have rather never been in that practice. I would have rather never had that sister.
Speaker 1:Look at me and acknowledge me, my life could have been perfectly Okay without any of those events happening. Yeah, I could have been perfectly fine without my wife saying to me after the fact, after her second DNC, that that even on a regular day, she still felt the internal suction of the procedure, of how this Life being sucked out of her. Like my life would have been perfectly fine Without any of those things. And so, to go back to the reason why I fast forwarded to the story in the first place and To round out that point that I was making, yeah, because she had had Physical effects, after effects, rather right, like her body was was intruded, her body was was put under this procedure for a second time, where she had this after effect of An internal suction, bro, like I don't know what that feels like, homie, yeah, yeah, I have zero category for even Understanding what that is like. Like I don't have anything. I have zero, I have nothing. The only thing that I have Remotely, and that's not even close, bro, was when I was way younger. I had some issue and I had an enema and but that's not even you know what I mean. Like she broke, she was feeling a pool, wow, like way after the fact, she was feeling the pool as if the, the, the material that, not the material, the, the tools that were being used To do this procedure. Like she was walking around, feeling, like she was still, I don't know, attached to, or being violent, not violated, but invaded by. So I don't know what that feels like.
Speaker 1:So then, why is it now, all of a sudden, I'm going to, you know, feel like it's okay for me to To say that, oh, this hurts me too. Oh, this, you know, everybody, looking mean, looking mean, even what I'm saying now, like homie, not acknowledging me like, why? Why am I making a big deal of it? Why is that that now important? Why? Just because, again, just because I had that stupid dream, just because I had created this expectation in my mind that, you know, because the first pregnancy was not viable, I had convinced myself that the second one was for sure going to be viable, and it wasn't. So I tricked myself into believing Something that was not true, and so that gives me the right, that gives me the the, the green light, the platform to be able to say something, when my body's not the one that's been intruded by these things, where this is not the second time that I'm feeling this. This is the first time, like Kel, who the hell tells you that it's okay for you to say any of these things?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:That's what was going on in my head.
Speaker 2:I think it's because of Comparing right and feeling like, because my pain is not the same. It is therefore not pain 100% broski.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that couldn't be further from the truth. Right, Right, that could be further from the truth right.
Speaker 2:Our pain is just different. It's just different, but it's still pain. It doesn't have to be on the same level, you know, and I think that's what kind of a both of us Going through this our understanding is, as a man and as well. It's not the same, you know, but it's almost like. Just like her pain is different from yours, your pain is also different from hers and it should still be explored and it still needs healing, a different type of healing, but it still needs healing nonetheless. Because it's great for us to make sure, making sure that we are there for our women, protecting our loved ones and making sure that they are good.
Speaker 2:But sometimes we do that at the expense of ourselves and if we are not healed at the end of the experience, it's just as dangerous as not helping with them because, hey, great, you know they're, they're walking back back on on two feet, you know, mentally there and everything. But here we are still struggling because we haven't faced it, still dealing with that pressure, still dealing. I mean, could you imagine? I'm sure that some of that guilt still comes up from time to time, fact, but Not in the way that it was, because you've just taken some time to deal with some things now If you had never thought about it, never tried to deal with it, and I think it's something kind of we kind of mentioned a little bit is how that pressure and how those things lead to unhealthy ways of coping. Some of those unhealthy ways of coping can completely end your marriage, can completely end your relationship.
Speaker 2:So and so it's just as important for us, as men, to acknowledge our own pain because it's different, it's our own pain and to be able to Express and feel okay, saying yeah, I'm hurting. I understand that trying to say like I hurt too, right, because I feel like when you say I hurt too, it's almost like trying to combine them. But you know, I, hey, you're hurting, you know what this hurt me in this way. Maybe it gives us a chance, because you know it's funny. Going through all this man, I realized I hadn't even talked to Amber about anything, anything. Maybe that's kind of the moment where you get to share, because there are things shared with me. You know, just like Michelle, sharing things with you, I feel like I can't give life that in my body I give death.
Speaker 2:That is a deep feeling, that's a deep feeling, bro, yeah, you know, and she took the time at that moment to share it with you, you know. So there's your moment, too, to saying, honey, I don't know what that feels. I'm so sorry, you know, I'm sorry for not being there before, but you know, I'm just so sad because now all the plans that I've had are gone. You know, all the things that I'm feeling are gone. I feel like I was trying to protect you when I couldn't. There is an opportunity, you know, to be able to open up more, to be able to share more. I think of make. Make make relationships stronger. Personally, listen you.
Speaker 1:You're saying something that I strongly believe. In comparison is not the way forward to create connection and understanding. Yes, yes, because my experience is never going to be equal to or like that of Michelle, because Michelle is her own person.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Michelle is a woman, the implications of this event are different for her than they are for me, like that is a given, and I think we spend way too much time by we, I mean the way that I responded to it. I think society, we, the collective, we, we spend way too much time trying to argue the apples and oranges thing as if they were equal, not realizing that, yo, it truly is apples and oranges, but that doesn't minimize the fact that they're both fruit. Facts, facts, they're both fruit and I think that's what you just said, right. So, yep, yep, I'm not going to sit or lay on some or table and have this procedure, this vacuum, you know, shoved inside of me to do whatever or however it happens. Like I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1:That's not, that's not part of my experience. Yeah, my body doesn't have to go through that, so that's a given. However, the pain that I feel is also pain. Yes, the after effects of this miscarriage are also my after effects, yes, right. So, by acknowledging that your experience is what it is, and, man, there are parts of it that I will never understand. There are parts of my experience that she will never understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah because my wife doesn't know the thoughts that go inside my head as a man, for how I see myself as a man, yeah, because she's not a man.
Speaker 2:You know, it's funny. Me and Amber were talking about something really similar just the other day and she was saying you know, I, she has a black female therapist. And she was like you know, I understand. I mean, well, I just shouldn't say we're talking about something totally different, because we were talking about the podcast, right. And she was like I understand you wanting to do this because you need another man to talk to in order to understand, because I don't know what it's like to be a man. And she said pretty much what you just said. Just like you don't know what it's like to be a woman, I don't know what it's like to be a man.
Speaker 2:And so it's so important for you to share that perspective, because it's important for us all to understand, and I think that's why, now that I'm sitting here thinking about, I think that's probably why I said what I said in terms of those perspectives, because I have to give that entire spiel I gave earlier to my wife Amber. Shout out to my wife yes, I am not original, she is, you know. But just having my wife acknowledge that's OK.
Speaker 1:So needed. And the second thing that you said to that that I want to highlight is that this is the missed opportunity part. Yeah, because a lot of men don't know what to say to their partners. I didn't know what to say to Michelle. Yeah, and that's OK. Yeah, it is entirely OK.
Speaker 1:The missed opportunity is exactly what you highlighted when your partner opens up and shares something deep about how she's feeling. Ride that coattel and share something deep about how you're feeling. Yeah, and it's not necessarily like a tit for tat or anything it's. It's nothing like that. It's a window of opportunity that's opened up for you to do, to say something that you do know how to say, because even by saying I don't know what I'm feeling right now, yes, you telling this person that you're feeling something, you just don't know how to put it into words yet. Yes, but what you're communicating to her is that you're also being impacted by this. Like this matters to you, this means something to you as well. Yes, right, and that's the only thing. That not the only thing, but that's, I think, the primary thing that she needs to know. Does he care? Yes, does this matter to him as much as it matters to me? And even if you don't know how to be poetic, like Chris and I are and all of that stuff, like it doesn't matter. It doesn't, it really doesn't matter. Just, it's not even as much as what you say, as it is what you're communicating.
Speaker 1:Listen, babe, I can't even put my thoughts into into words right now. Yeah, I really don't know how to tell you what I'm feeling right now. That communicates. I am, I am trying my best to process through whatever it is I'm feeling. It communicates to her that you are actually feeling something and is communicating to her, that you're not trying to hide anything from her, that you're not trying to not talk to her about anything In the moment. Right now, you're acknowledging that something is going on, but give me time to figure out how to say it, what to say, but I want you to know that you're feeling something. I'm feeling something. You're hurting. I'm hurting Like. These are the things that get communicated when we take advantage of these windows of opportunities. Yes, and.
Speaker 1:I remember, bro, like that's, that's what I started doing with with Michelle, you know, every time that we would check in with each other and she would say something to me and I would share something back. I remember immediately after that, unfortunately, I had to go to work, which we could, you know, spend another episode or two talking about what it's like having to live as if this event didn't just happen to you.
Speaker 2:But I went to work. I went to work.
Speaker 1:And, like I said, I'll repeat it again here, I work in a pediatric setting. So I walked into work and I see all these people with their kiddos and, mind you, they're not doing well many of them, right but I see all these families, all these dads with their kids, and my wife is home by herself. And that didn't sit well with me, emotionally and mentally, yeah. So I had to reach out to my supervisor at the time and I was like, hey, I need, I need to go home, I need to be with my wife, like there's. I left her emotionally dry the first time.
Speaker 1:This time around, I can't let her go through this by herself. So, even if she needed her space, even if we didn't say anything to each other, I needed to be in the same house, yes, in the same vicinity. I needed her to know that I was there, right. So I came back home, I laid on the bed next to her. I asked her what she needed. She said she was fine. I told her you know, I'm going to give you your space. I'm going to give you your space because I wanted to make sure I give her her space this time. Yeah, I'm going to give you your space. I'll be downstairs If you want to talk. If you need anything, just let me know, I'll be downstairs and I don't remember anything after that point.
Speaker 2:Dude. Now we need a part three. We need a part three. This is, this is so good, man, this is so good, and I think what's beautiful is ending it with. Now everyone has an understanding as to why we're here. Yes, you know an origin story, if you will, as we use in superhero terms.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I think just obviously that's saying you're a superhero, right, because they don't exist.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:But you know Batman's real, but you know like it's. But you know, the reason heroes have origin stories is because something happened to them and they want to help. And that's what this is. Something happened to you, bro, and you use that to say this bad thing has happened to me. I want to help so I can help someone either avoid it or navigate through it.
Speaker 1:So where do we go from here? I guess the next time we we link up again, we can try to wrap it together. The third and the fourth one, bro, it's just going to have to be four parts.
Speaker 2:Let's, let's just not even set the expectation. This is a four part story, ok, yeah that's, that's fine, bro.
Speaker 1:Thank you again, man. Thank you for for For enduring these conversations with me and for the insight that you brought out for me and, just putting things together, that I wasn't like that onesie piece. I'm going to think about that piece, bro, because that emblematic is absolutely right. It's absolutely right, bro. I'm going to share that with Michelle right now, as a matter of fact. Absolutely right. Well, what you said. So that was spot on.
Speaker 1:Again, we want to say thank you to you for tuning in and being part of this conversation, being part of this journey. Places you can find us you can find us and follow us on TikTok, at the miscarriage dads, on Instagram, the miscarriage dad. You can listen to this podcast on Apple podcast, amazon music and some of the other places. You can watch it on YouTube. We really appreciate feedback that we've been receiving so far about the episodes and the conversations and the podcast, the platform in general. So thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Wherever you're listening or watching to this podcast, please leave us a review, share with us your comments and your thoughts. You can email us at the miscarriage dad the miscarriage dad, sorry. At gmailcom, and again, we'll open the invitation to anyone who wants to share their story. If you want to join us as a guest, we'll be delighted to have you. If you don't want to make a public appearance and you just want to share parts of your story, parts of your thought, you can email us and then we will read on a future episode the things that you sent to us. Or if you just want to interact, chat with us one on one, like, however, we can be of service to you, we want to make ourselves available for that. Chris, any parting words?
Speaker 2:No, love you guys and glad we're doing this thing. So thank you and until next time.