Have you ever pondered the impact miscarriage has on fathers, or the complex emotions that are often untapped within these men? Today, we embark on a heartfelt journey, unraveling these unspoken experiences and exploring the vital role of empathy and mutual support in loss. We highlight the importance of shared understanding within couples, shedding light on the male perspective on miscarriage.
We touch on the profound influence of beliefs, faith, and expectations on individuals grappling with miscarriage. From comforting to confusing, faith plays a paradoxical role during these trying times. We scrutinize the introspective questions and self-doubts that arise amidst loss, and discuss the decision to let life unfold naturally amidst unexpected coincidences. With a focus on the necessity of partnership, we underline the power of acknowledging each partner's emotions during such times, emphasizing the critical need for both to be seen, heard, and supported for healing to occur.
Lastly, we emphasize the significance of partnership during the trying times of baby loss, and the need to validate men's experiences in miscarriage, underscoring the need for healing to happen in unity. Join us as we navigate these intricate themes and lend a voice to the often overlooked male perspective on miscarriage.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Have you ever pondered the impact miscarriage has on fathers, or the complex emotions that are often untapped within these men? Today, we embark on a heartfelt journey, unraveling these unspoken experiences and exploring the vital role of empathy and mutual support in loss. We highlight the importance of shared understanding within couples, shedding light on the male perspective on miscarriage.
We touch on the profound influence of beliefs, faith, and expectations on individuals grappling with miscarriage. From comforting to confusing, faith plays a paradoxical role during these trying times. We scrutinize the introspective questions and self-doubts that arise amidst loss, and discuss the decision to let life unfold naturally amidst unexpected coincidences. With a focus on the necessity of partnership, we underline the power of acknowledging each partner's emotions during such times, emphasizing the critical need for both to be seen, heard, and supported for healing to occur.
Lastly, we emphasize the significance of partnership during the trying times of baby loss, and the need to validate men's experiences in miscarriage, underscoring the need for healing to happen in unity. Join us as we navigate these intricate themes and lend a voice to the often overlooked male perspective on miscarriage.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
If you're a woman hearing this portion of this conversation and you care about your partner and you notice that in that moment, which is the worst moment of your life, which is also the same for him, the worst moment of his life If he's being ignored, if he's being under supported, if he is being undermined, if he's being whatever, and you're getting the attention that you absolutely deserve, to call on the attention of the people who are giving you the attention that you absolutely deserve and say give that same amount of energy to him, also as a sign of how much you care for this man. This is the Miss Carriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads, openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miss Carriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host.
Speaker 3:My name is Chris and I am your co-host.
Speaker 1:And we continue to be incredibly grateful and thankful that, week after week, as these conversations come out, you tune in, you engage, you consume the content, you are challenged by the conversations that we have and the things that you've learned. In fact, I didn't even tell you this, chris, but I wanted to start off by reading two of the comments that we've gotten about these series of conversations. Since the start of the podcast, people have been leaving their feedback on what this podcast has taught them, the value that they found in it, the perspective that they've been able to gain. So someone wrote on here from a couple of weeks ago. It says great podcast.
Speaker 1:Speaking from the perspective of a woman who has not had a miscarriage, I still found this podcast enlightening. It opens up a new area where I realize I need to have slash, show empathy and be able to hold space for men dealing with this issue. Somebody else wrote I appreciate this perspective. I certainly, or it certainly isn't shared enough. It's great how Kelly and Chris can share their own stories and feelings without belitering the woman's experience. It's not one over the other.
Speaker 1:Both mom and dad need to heal. I also enjoy the space given for processing what was shared. It's so needed, especially since both have discovered they are still trying to come to terms with the loss of their children. So this is what it's all about, yeah, yeah, just not just sharing our stories, not just sharing our perspective, but also bringing awareness to the fact that, for something that is so common and is so devastating to so many families, our perspective as the father is not readily on people's minds, and so for that to come across these comments, and for other people who have shared in a similar way what their thoughts are after engaging with this podcast, it tells me that what we're doing not only we're doing it correctly, but the reason why we're doing it is also getting across in the way that we expected and anticipated that it would, and we hope that it will continue to be.
Speaker 3:Yeah, most definitely, man, most definitely.
Speaker 3:I actually just spoke to someone yesterday who listens to our podcast, has listened to every episode, and was talking about the healthcare issues that we brought up, and this person was just saying how they have people that they know in healthcare and how they are going to want to share with them these different kinds of things about care, about paying attention, because, hey, it's important how often we experience these things and this person was just talking about how sometimes, as people, we can just get into this, this rote thing every day where we're just going through the motions, and how, in healthcare, when you have a day where you're just going through the motions like that, you don't think about how it's affecting other people.
Speaker 3:So it's nice to see not only have we been able to, through this podcast, bring awareness not just to the feeling of what happened in the loss, but even those other aspects how healthcare professionals deal with someone who is going through the loss, like you were saying in the podcast. You were saying to someone who commented on the podcast, someone who's a woman who has never experienced a miscarriage, for something like this to impact them as well that because, again, that's the point we're just spreading awareness as well. That is something that we want to change people's perspectives, change people's minds, create new pathways in their brains to think about these kinds of things. We've done a really good job, I think, in our society opening up these things, where we're more concerned about people and how we approach them, how we speak to them, how we think about them, and I think this is just another thing that we're able to add to that, so that we get the care that we need too.
Speaker 1:I also want to say this, and you are completely unaware of the words that are about to come out of my mouth right now Okay, but yesterday was your birthday, my guy, yes, and so I want to give you, my good friend and co-host, a shout out for celebrating another year of life. So I was trying to remember which of these buttons is the crowd celebration. I don't remember which one it is, so I'm just gonna start hitting buttons and there might be like cricket or hold on, let me see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there you go. Yeah, yeah, oh, happy birthday, chris Woo.
Speaker 3:Appreciate it, man. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bro. So listen, man, it's always a reason to celebrate another year of life. I'm also gonna bring up the fact that on this podcast, you have shared previously that, for all of these celebration and the gratitude for yet another year, ever since your loss, your birthday or the season around your birthday has not been the same. So just wanted to check in with you. How was the day for you yesterday?
Speaker 3:Overall, the day was good. Man, the day was good. It's always weird because whoever are little and whatever the time would have been they would have been two this year and that wasn't lost on me Waking up in the morning getting ready to go I was literally busy all day. Actually, I was at a conference, an interfaith conference on domestic abuse, so it was an all day conference.
Speaker 1:It was incredible.
Speaker 3:That's the kind of way to spend your birthday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredible but very deep subject matter. So get home, I'm tired, I'm exhausted. And it was just funny like cause Amber was saying happy birthday and all that kind of stuff. She had surprised me. Some friends came over, but as things got quiet, as the night died down a little bit, I was just like you know, babe, like it's bittersweet. Our little one would have been two, little one would have been two.
Speaker 3:So it's like with every year that's added to my life it's another year of what could have been. But at the same time, I think that with each year that goes by is also another year of healing. I don't feel like I'm going in the wrong direction. I feel like I'm moving in the right direction. So I'm okay, I'm good. It was overall, it was a good day. It was a good day. I think also, too, it helped me appreciate the sun that I have more. I have two kids, obviously, and I got Chrissie's, the older one. But it also put my mind a lot on a Randall and I don't know for sure. For a lot of people there's that impossible scenario of well, if I had this one, would I have, if the one that passed. If I had that child, would I have the child that I have now, cause I can't imagine life without Randall. So it's a hard area to be in, but at the same time I'm still thankful and I'm grateful and I'm okay, I'm okay.
Speaker 1:So, right now, I guess what we can do. Well, you know what, before we even do anything, this is what I'm gonna do I am going to silence my phone, cause I have yet to silence my phone.
Speaker 3:Let me make sure mine is. While we were sitting here, I had my lights on a timer so they suddenly came on. So I don't even know how it looked on camera if, like it was like, suddenly got super bright. Like God wasn't taking me, it was just my lights.
Speaker 1:It looked great, All right so that's that. So we don't have any interruptions or anything like that, and I think we're good. All right cool. Yeah, I think we're good. So, yeah, man, I'm gonna let you go ahead and take the. Take the steering wheel and let us know where we headed today.
Speaker 3:Well, today we're gonna finish your story, man. We're gonna finish your story. We have been through our journey with you and you sharing with us three of the miscarriages and that third one, man. There was so much that happened and I'm really glad that we took the time with it and we're glad we took those two episodes to really deal with it, because, my goodness, there was just so much there.
Speaker 3:It felt like for you that was really the one that not only, like, defined your feeling of loss, but it's the one that almost if I wanna use a word, maybe sealed this entire thing up for you in terms of the pain, because I feel like with the first one, there was that looking forward to the next one. And then the second one came and it was more of a shock. It felt like in what you were describing and not necessarily fully knowing how to feel. And then you have a child, and then it happens again, and then, with everything that happened with your wife and being in the bathroom, oh man, that was rough.
Speaker 3:That was rough Having to go to your parents' house, not let them know anything, and just being able to really explore that and lift you up for a minute and say, hey, man, wait a minute, like yeah, okay, there's the guilt of feeling like he weren't able to do anything. But, like I said, I'm sure you could ask your wife. You were there and that was really the biggest thing was that you were there and at that day you did truly show up as the husband that you want to be. It's interesting.
Speaker 1:I actually asked her that question this morning oh, what'd she say? And because you inspired me to ask her that question and this was the first time since the loss that we actually spoke about it in some extensive way and I just asked her. I was like, hey, can I ask you what was that day like for you, what was that experience like for you? And so she told me what it was like for her and then I asked her if she felt that I supported her properly in the way that she needed support that day. And she just straight up said she was like absolutely, you were there with me the whole time. That's all she said and that's all I needed to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Man, how did that feel? I mean having that confirmed.
Speaker 1:Validating. Yeah, it felt validating. It felt like it still doesn't take away any of the things that I felt right For the reasons that I felt. What it did for me, what it's doing for me, it's that it now her now saying that to me and knowing what she thinks or what she thought about that day and my involvement and the things that I did that now sits there as something that I can anchor whatever my I can anchor myself to whenever I feel like I am being pulled away by these lingering feelings of uselessness and powerlessness and guilt and all of that stuff, I can always, because now I have her voice in my mind, in my head, saying you supported me, right there with me, so I can always come back and just anchor myself and hold on to that, be like, okay, regardless of what I'm feeling, which is true, which is, you know, which was my experience. For her, she's not aware of all of that. All that she knew was that I was there and that was good enough for her. So then, that's good enough for me too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and if I could even change your language and not say that it was good enough, but that it was everything at that moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I co-signed that, I co-signed that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's beautiful man, that's beautiful. Wow, I feel like even to get closure and I'm just thinking back to your first miscarriage and how you felt like you handled that and how I don't know a better word to say this. So obviously I'm not trying to insult you, but how poorly you handled the first one.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, dude.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's not insulting at all. I could use worse language to describe what I thought I did. You know, and yeah, yeah. I was not. We've already spoken about that. I was not. I didn't handle that in the most honorable or loving way towards my life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but hey, that was the first one. I feel like with each one there were different things that happened, but so far now I know you're gonna be sharing the next one in a minute, but so far this one seemed like it was the worst one and for you to be at your best in terms of being there for her during what was the worst. Was this the worst out of all four?
Speaker 1:Because of the visuals and just the fact that it happened at home and yeah. So in terms of that, yes, yeah, from number two, three and four just completely messed me up emotionally for different reasons, but in terms of like the one that stands out to both me and her the most, it was that third one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hey, man. And so for the worst one, you showed up the most, you know, you showed up the most. That's huge, that's huge. And again, vyra Bedman, I would bet that you being there for that moment for your worst, for your wife's worst experience in her life, that probably outweighs what happened that first time, because, of course, the first time was harrowing. Let's not, you know, it's not, it's not like it was, it wasn't a tragedy. But for you to be there in that way, yeah, yeah, you made up for that other one. You made up for it, bro. Well, I guess we can go ahead and move forward, man, and let's, let's keep on sharing and let's get into, let's get into the last one.
Speaker 1:For this one I want to approach it and from a different angle, Not so much just kind of talk, talking about the what happens, because we can, we already know where the story is going to. To conclude, Right.
Speaker 1:It ends in in a miscarriage, so we can start from the end and work our way back, because what I really want to focus about in this one and in this particular conversation are the internal dialogues that I had mentioned in some of the other ones before. But this one really intensified those internal, internal dialogues. So obviously we come out of this third miscarriage and my wife and I decided that we were going to try, we're going to try again, and you know we had, we had set a timeline for we're not going to, we're not going to try to do things the way that she had tried to get me to do things before, timing it like I'm ovulating now. Do me now. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like, hey, that's just not, that's just not going to work out. Bro, that is just. Chris, you know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like this the schedule, like I don't, I don't want this to happen on schedule. I want to. You know, I just want, just want to happen. You know I'm saying like the schedule thing.
Speaker 1:Like I'm just coming out of work. You know what I?
Speaker 3:mean Right.
Speaker 1:Like I just got home and he's just like hey, according to the app, we have a window from today, tuesday, do me now, right, I'm going to go take a shower and get prepared.
Speaker 3:You also go take a shower and get prepared and get ready.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like I'm in the shower like I'm right there, man.
Speaker 3:I'm right there, I'm right there.
Speaker 1:This schedule bro, it just, it just takes away from. It just takes away from, I don't know I guess, the emotional, the emotional foreplay and connection and all of that jazz. It just feels very task oriented.
Speaker 3:It feels. It feels I've got a meeting tonight at 730. So I'm not going to be able to. Like you know, the daddy can watch a show. Well, son, looking at my calendar, Can we move that to tomorrow? There's a small window. Me and your mom have to have a meeting and. I'll be able to get back to you on that buddy. Yeah, man.
Speaker 1:So we, we decided we're not going to do things that way anymore, we're just going to let it happen. Yeah, it happens, it happens. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. Here's what's interesting about one of the most interesting things about this particular period in time.
Speaker 1:I was laying in bed in our room one night and bro, I can't explain it All of a sudden I got this really strong impression you should name your next child Eden. Hmm, just out of nowhere, you should name your next child Eden. So I'm laying there and at this point I'm convinced I just need to now tell my wife that our next child's name is going to be Eden. And I know she's going to ask me the why and the all the questions. So I laid there and I was like okay, babe, I just got this really strong impression, but I think we should name them our next child Eden. And she goes Eden, really, why is that? And I said I have no idea.
Speaker 1:I'm just laying here and I just got this really strong impression that the name of our next child should be Eden and Chris. She says to me that's interesting because a couple of nights ago I got the same impression. Whoa, wow. And I just didn't want to tell you because I thought you would think that I was crazy or whatever the case is. So let's say, at least 48 hours apart, she gets that impression first and she doesn't say anything to me, and then, like two nights later, I get the same impression. I say something to her first and then she confirms to me that she had gotten the impression, the same impression, several nights prior. Wow, wow. And recently we were having that conversation on our way to to an event and we're just exploring, like how number one, just how awesome, fascinating, creepy, a little weird, you know all of that is, but.
Speaker 1:So there was no ifs or buts about it. The name of our next child will be Eden. So now, chris, we have a name again, bro, before anything, we have a name. And then she gets pregnant. Hmm, so we are doing, you know, the checkups and the hormone counts and the whole night so far and so forth, and, like I said at the start of the story, it ends in a miscarriage. We go to the doctor, she gets checked out, the doctor walks in, she puts the jelly on her belly, takes the ultrasound machine, she's looking, she's looking, she's looking and she says I'm sorry, guys, like here's the here's, the here's the fetus, but it doesn't have a heartbeat. Now this is the fourth time I'm holding Michelle's hand. She had this intuition, she had this I think she had come to to. She was settled within her because throughout the whole time that she told me she was pregnant, or after she told me she was pregnant, there was a. There was a point where she was just like I don't feel like this is going to be a healthy pregnancy, I don't, I don't feel like. So she just kept saying that and I was like no, you know what? That's not the case. You're saying that because of everything that we've been through already so far and so forth.
Speaker 1:I also remember sitting at a diner with a buddy of mine, and by this point I had already had the conversation with Michelle. I was like, hey, listen, we've gone through enough miscarriages. You can't keep cutting out my lifeline. I need to be able to talk to somebody about this. And so she was like you know what? That's fine.
Speaker 1:So I remember talking to my buddy, elson. We were sitting at a diner and I was like hey, bro, I got something to tell you. My wife is pregnant. I told them about the other losses that we've experienced. Without getting into detail, I was just like we've already had several losses and I had told them about the last one. So I told them you know she's pregnant.
Speaker 1:Now I need you to keep your boy in prayer, because there's no way, bro, there's no way God could lead us. There's no way God is going to let this happen again. That's what I said to him. There's no way God is going to let this happen again. Like he saw how devastated we were with all the other ones, particularly this last one. Like there's no way, bro. I remember saying those words to him with so much confidence. There's no way, bro, there's no way that I'm going to end up, that we're going to end up having another miscarriage. Those were the words that came out of my mouth. So I was like we have the appointment coming up. If I text you then, or when I text you, it's to confirm that everything is fine. So he was like, oh man, I'm excited for you guys and so far and so forth. Are I cool? So we get there and the doctor says there's no heartbeat.
Speaker 1:And Michelle just laid there and I remember looking at her face and she just had this. She just had this inner peace because it's almost like she knew that. She's like she knew all along. Now I'm saying inner peace because that's what her face looked like. I really don't know what she felt like on the inside Right, of course, was the impact of hearing those words again for a fourth time? I have no idea, but I just put my head on her shoulder and I just felt so defeated. I felt defeated, my guy, and I just started sobbing on her shoulder. So the doctor and by this time this was the doctor who had been with us since Juki's birth, and so she was the one who so she was.
Speaker 1:She's the one who who completely made up for the experiences of the other doctors that we had encountered along our journey. So she, she was pulling for us. Like you can tell that she really cared about us. Yeah, you can tell that she was getting to the point. I think she was one more miscarriage away from sitting us down and saying, hey guys, I I don't think, like, what are you guys doing? Let me know your thought process. I don't think I should do this anymore, because it looked like it started to become painful for her to have to tell us this is not a miss, this is not a viable pregnancy, this is not a viable pregnancy. So she was.
Speaker 1:I felt that she was very invested in what we were invested in and she wanted us to succeed as much as we wanted to succeed.
Speaker 1:So I mean, I can't speak more glowingly about Dr Anderson. Yeah, she hands down just an amazing and amazing physician and amazing person, at least in the way that she dealt with with us. Yeah, yeah, so that's awesome. Yeah, man, yes, yes, I like, if I'm going to spend time talking about the failures and the shortcomings of the other ones, I got to spend an equal amount of time, if not a greater amount of time, talking about how amazing this woman was to us and our journey. The moment that she took, the moment that she took over she was, she was just incredible. She kept me involved in conversations when I, when we sat in her office and in the ultrasound room and she would talk to Michelle and she would address Michelle, and then it's not just a matter of like just addressing Michelle and then, in her language, addressing me. Yeah, her body, language, her body would shift to wherever it is that I'm sitting and also address me.
Speaker 1:So she would ask Michelle, do you have any questions for me? And then, if she did, then she would respond to her questions and then she would give me her full, undivided attention. Yeah, do you have any questions for me? And if I did, then we would have a dialogue and then, as we're talking or as she's responding to either what I'm asking, what I asked or what Michelle asked, she would look at her, she would look at me, she would look at her, she would look at me. I mean, it was just incredible. Yeah, that's huge. It was incredible, right, yeah. And again, let's highlight this, the fact that I'm speaking so glowingly about something that should be the norm is a problem, man, because that should be the norm. Right, right, you know what I mean, mm. Hmm, like this is not even a matter of personality, type or anything like that, it's just a matter of practice. Yeah, like that should just be the norm.
Speaker 1:Right when you have two people in a room and you just address Excuse me, both people Mm, hmm. And you ask both people questions, mm, hmm. And you involve both people in the decision making and the conversation, and it's just what we do, right.
Speaker 1:Like you're not going to go to a. You're not going to go to an event. You're not going to get invited to an event and you sit at a table and there's all these people, whether you know them or not, but you know that one person and then you're just going to have a full conversation with that person and completely ignore everybody else at the table. Right, that's also invited to the same event. Like you're not going to do that? Mm, hmm, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like if it was a business event if it was like you, just at some point you have to have a conversation with the person that's sitting next to you, to your right, to your left, the person that's sitting across from you, to your right or left, and the person that's sitting to the right and left of the person that you know. When you're talking to like I said to like, at some point you have to have a conversation with everybody else around you. So it's not a foreign concept, is not rocket science, is not you know it's. It's just. It's just common courtesy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, common, what should be common practice, it's, it's just being human man, you know, it's you just being a human being. You know, like what human being would not feel sad for another human being, you know? Or what human being would go into a room and not acknowledge another human being? Is what we do, is what we're supposed to? Even if you're an introvert, I'm an introvert, this is what you do, you know, you could say is high at the least. At the least, you know, at the least you don't even really have to have a full on conversation after that. I just need to acknowledge your presence.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, but you know, especially, but when we're talking about the medical field is like yo, if there's two people in this, in this small room, this isn't a group of people, this isn't a group meeting. You know, and, yes, we're not. If this is not, I know cuz, like you know, sometimes if Amber goes to the doctor, sometimes I might end up being there or something like that. So I'll be sitting there, you know, obviously I'm not gonna get talked to that point because this is a regular doctor's appointment, but this isn't a regular thing. Like I am here because this is also my child, you know so, because I am already included in what's going on. It would just make sense as a human to also include me in the conversation about something that is also mine, you know. But whatever, I'm not in the, I'm not in that field, I don't know, but we digress.
Speaker 1:But, shout out to Dr Anderson and the doctors and medical practitioners and providers like her, who get it and who, who make that their norm, who are listening to this part of the conversation right now and they're like, yeah, this is this is just what. This is what I do, this is what we do shout out to you.
Speaker 1:So she leaves the room, she leaves the room and the moment she leaves the room, I put my head on Michelle's shoulder and I, just, I just start crying. Bro, I am breaking Down like shoulders bopping. I'm breaking down and my wife was the one consoling me. She, she put her hand on on my shoulder. She, she was. She hugged me, she wrapped her arms around me. She hugged me and she was telling me it's gonna be okay, we're gonna be okay, it's gonna be okay, it's fine. And I was just like I don't, I don't understand.
Speaker 1:Chris, I was at, you know, I had been in a similar place before, not understanding like, why is this happening? Miscarriage can be so disorienting. Yeah, it can leave you so Unmoored it it? It makes you feel like you're drifting in all different directions At the same time and and you're being pulled apart Emotionally. At least, that's what it felt like for for me. Yeah, and that moment in that office, in that particular miscarriage, it was the most intense, that I felt that way, because now the accumulation of the other ones Just came to a head. Yeah, you know, once again, we both had this strong impression that this child's name supposed to be Eden and.
Speaker 1:And now there is no Eden anymore, because that miscarried that, that that life is no longer Going to materialize as we had expected, as we had hoped, as we had anticipated. So Now we start having the questions, the conversations. We start addressing the questions and start having the conversations. Are we done? Hmm, because we had said that we would be done after this one, if this one, if she got pregnant and this one was also not viable, we're just not going to put ourselves through this again. Yeah, we're gonna shut down shop and we're going to be content With our one living child. We're gonna thank God for him, we're going to love on him and we're going to grow our little family, maybe through adoption or Foster care or anything like that. But we, we were done trying to have children.
Speaker 1:So the conversations then were what are you feeling right now? I Remember we went out to eat later on that night. We had plans to go out to eat that night. We already had plans before that happened. So it's not like we went out to celebrate or anything like that. We already had plans. So we went out to eat that night and we're sitting at the restaurant and we just kept checking in on each other. I said to her I know this is all fresh, I know this is all very recent, it happened this morning, right now, just the immediate After effects of everything, what are you feeling right now? And and she asked me the same question and we both kept coming back to the same word in complete. We feel incomplete. There's something about me, there's something about her that felt Incomplete, and so we left it there. I was like, okay, we're obviously gonna keep having this conversation again, but it it was helpful for me and her to know that we were feeling something similar. In fact, we're feeling the same thing.
Speaker 3:We're feeling incomplete and with that word incomplete, were you saying incomplete as we are empty, or incomplete as unfulfilled?
Speaker 1:Both, for me was both mm-hmm, which is which is Important and significant, because the questions then that I started asking myself mm-hmm, were those type of questions mm-hmm, why do I feel Unfulfilled? Mm-hmm, what is it about having or attaining this next child that's going to make me feel fulfilled? Why can't I find fulfillment now? Yeah, why does my son, my living child? Why isn't he enough?
Speaker 1:Why isn't he fulfilling enough? Like I had mentioned in a previous episode, those questions about my intentions for Chasing after another child started to resurface again, mm-hmm. So you and your wife said prior to this that you guys were done. And, bro, now you're telling her that you're feeling incomplete. Hmm, are you really you know where this is gonna end, cow, are you really about to put her through that again? Hmm, are you really gonna do that to your wife Once again, knowing that it could very well end up and and yet another miscarriage? Hmm, and what if this time is Not something that happens at home? What if this time she doesn't have a miscarriage and she goes full term, but in the moment of delivery, her life is compromised and your kid, yeah, are you like? Is that the chance that you really want to take? Do you not see the kids in the environment where you work at? What if, because you want this kid so bad, you're going against God's will? Wow, what if your kid comes out with all sorts of heart problems, chronic lung disease, hypoplastic left heart syndrome? What if you have a really sickly child? How are you gonna feel on the other side of having that kid, knowing that it was your Relentless desire to get this kid that got you to this place. You can't be mad at yourself, hmm. You can't be mad at God for that. You did this, you chose this. Hmm. What if Michelle dies? You would have done that because you said you were done and then now, all of a sudden, you're feeling incomplete and so you're willing to put your wife at least. You're considering it like why would you even consider something like that? Hmm, do you even really love her? If you're considering that like, why don't you stand on your word as a man, bro? So is it just because she feels that way that you also feel like what? You can't make up your own mind, chris, I Was in my head, yeah, and, for context, I am someone that, over the years, I have learned to spend a lot of time in my head because I really like the nitty gritty Analysis of things.
Speaker 1:I don't just take things at face value. I want to understand, bro. Like I am, I Seek understanding. I am a relentless pursuer of understanding. I want to understand as many things as I could possibly understand, beginning with myself, and I'm always questioning my own motives and intentions and thoughts, like I will ask why? And then I'll ask why am I asking why? And then I'll ask why did I ask why? About asking why? Because I want to understand, mm-hmm, I want to understand. I'm not trying to be perfect, I'm not trying, I'm just trying to understand.
Speaker 1:So those, that level of just being in my head and hyper Critical and all of that, that's just what I do on a regular basis, which doesn't mean that I'm always self deprecating or anything like that. No, right, what I do like to take time and just like it takes me a while to eat, I'm like the slowest eater, you know, because I want to chew my food and chew and chew and chew, and people be like bro finish, and I'm like now, man, I got a chew. So my thought process is the same way. Hmm, I'm always constantly thinking about something at all time, just like hyper analyzing.
Speaker 1:In that situation, it just it just took on a life of its own, where it was that practice and that impulse of really wanting to understand, but also the self deprecating, you know, sentiment and thoughts and and voices, just like you, you are all sorts of things and I, I beat myself up. Hmm, I Really beat myself up. So that was the, that was a line of questioning that I had on the one hand, yeah. On the other hand, I was so sure that we would not end up in this situation again because of the last one, hmm, and I told my friend bro, there is no way God is going to let this happen again.
Speaker 3:And so I know we haven't had the yeah God conversation yet and we definitely are going to, you know, but it's just, and I think it goes back to not understanding things, because I think there's a, there is a large component in relying on a higher power, because there's so much you don't understand. And you know, for some people, they feel like that's what explains everything. You know, obviously we're religious. I think there is a lot more to it than that, but that's what some people not some people feel. However, the fact is, when something does happen to us that we cannot explain, that we don't understand, of Course we go to something we don't understand for answers. You know, and regardless of what religion you know, you guys are, you know, whoever higher powers. Of course, me and Kelly are Christians talking about God in this sense. It's this idea that God knows everything, that God is in control of everything, and when you use language like that and say like he's in control of everything, and then when you are raised in a faith where it's like, oh, all you have to do is believe and then everything is going to work out, and then it doesn't, it's jarring. I think it throws you for more of a loop than you realize, because you were already just being positive about it, but now you were trying to affirm it. You know those, all those little religious things. You just got to speak it into existence. Just be positive, just believe and everything's gonna work out. And it doesn't. Well, like you said, now you have all these questions, and a part of the reason that you have all these questions too is because you also don't know the future. And when you believe in something really hard and that thing doesn't come true, you remember and it's like almost actualized that you didn't know the future to begin with. You didn't know if it was gonna work out or not, but because you chose to believe and you thought that in that belief there was gonna be some kind of magic power that would happen. And then suddenly it doesn't happen, of course you begin to question everything because now you become afraid of what the future can bring. You're afraid because you realize wait a minute. You don't know what could possibly come. And of course you start questioning God because you feel like God told you that things are gonna be okay. You know, I think back to what it is that feeling about you guys Having that name for your child Eden. You know, when you said it, I just all I heard was the next child you have. That's kind of ominous For Amber. She felt like God told her you will have.
Speaker 3:When it came to a child and this was just after Chris, because she was asking for a child God said you will have, and then she has a miscarriage. I remember praying to God and again, I'm not going, it's so hard not to get too deep into this but I remember I was praying, like you know, and I was like God, like I was praying for you, to you, to keep my baby safe and apparently the baby, that child, been dead for like a month. I was praying over a dead child. What is that? Like you couldn't, you couldn't say anything, you know, um, but all these questions and all these these weird things start playing because for most of us, religion is what drives us.
Speaker 3:It is so deeply ingrained in who we are. It drives our worldview, it drives how we interact with others, how we interact with good things and bad things. We have our joys and we have our tragedies. So when you have tragedy upon tragedy upon tragedy, you know, yeah, you start going back to those simple things of well, wait a minute, I thought I was doing things. Right Now, all the wrong things are happening to me. Of course you're going to question, you know um, I think within our religious communities we start treating, we get, we get too hard on ourselves about the questioning part, you know um.
Speaker 3:But to me, again, it makes perfect sense that you would go down this road of questioning within yourself, um, because now you're in this space where you feel alone. You feel like, well, wait a minute. Well, okay, I'm not that person that I worship or whatever, isn't necessarily on my side either, because he's not protecting me. So it's just me. So now I am supposed to be the protector of my wife and, like you were saying, how can I put my wife in this possible situation? You know, just because I feel like I'm unfulfilled. Where's that feeling of unfulfillment even coming from? What is that?
Speaker 1:You know, that's exactly what part of the questioning, too, was, and I remember having a conversation with with another friend and he and his wife had been struggling to have a child. Um, they, they had been going through infertility, uh treatments and what have you, and it just was not working out for them. So we were, we were having this really vulnerable conversation as men and fathers, trying to get to the root of why do we have this relentless impulse to want to have children? It's more than just biology. It's more than just you know. Your evolution as, as, as a person, is more than just uh, you know, depending on your worldview. It's more than just your evolutionary development. Over how many ever millions of years. It's more if you're a, if you have a different uh worldview. It's more than just a divinely uh ordained task that your maker has has given you or implanted on you to be fruitful and multiply. It's more than it's more than that, and so we're trying to understand and get to the heart of where is that coming from? At what cost? How far am I willing to go to get that, to get that child? How much more damage am I willing to endure in order to get that child? How much more damage am I willing to ask my wife to subject herself to? Because you know what, bro and we've been saying this from the top you and I will never, in our entire existence as men, we will never understand in any way, shape or form what this experience is like in the same way that your wife Amber, my wife Michelle experienced it themselves. We will never, because we, as men, as fathers, as husbands, we have the luxury and I see it as a luxury Listen, I'm not even going to mince words with this, bro ski I see it as a luxury that I don't have to carry a child. Yeah, yeah, I don't. Yeah, I could carry my kids in my arms, but in my body, bro, when I'm sick, when I have, like, some type of ache or pain or whatever, I had a vasectomy this summer and I ended up having some complications afterwards.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I was, listen, I was in bed, bro ski. I was in bed. Your boy was hunched over, Like I couldn't stand up straight, I couldn't do anything, and so my wife was taking care of me, while she was also taking care of the boys, and what have you? And I felt? So I felt, matter of fact, this is relevant. I had the vasectomy the day. Like I just came back from you know, because it's a, it's a one, it's a same day procedure, Right, yeah, and I elected to go under. There was no way I was going to stay awake and watching people do things to. It was just not going to happen. Like that would have just been a really awkward. Like hey, what's going on? Do you feel that? No, I see you and that's kind of awkward. Put that down.
Speaker 1:I was like yeah hey, hey, you're going to use that. No, yeah, I didn't want any of those. Yeah, that's too close.
Speaker 3:I don't know if that is, but it's too close.
Speaker 1:I didn't want to run into anybody that was in that room at Starbucks or something and just be like you know me more intimately than I could care for, yeah. So I was like, nah, man, put me under, and it is what it is. So I get home and I'm like man, I need to go use a restroom. So I go use a restroom. Obviously I can't stand up because I'm in pain, I'm in sore, the anesthesia is wearing off. So you know, I sit, I sit, I use the restroom to go pee, and then I get up and then I feel a rush of fluid going down my leg and I was like, oh my God, man, I just pee myself. When I look down, I'm bleeding from the side of my incision and there is a lot of loss of blood, bro.
Speaker 1:That moment Chris triggered me and brought me back to that third miscarriage. And so now the roles were reversed and my wife rushes into the bath because I called out to her in distress. She rushes in the bathroom and she sees it and she goes directly into action put pressure on this, do this, do that. And I'm sitting there and I'm just like I have no control over what's happening. I am having all sorts of questions in my head, like yo am I like what's going on here? And so she was like we need to call the hospital and tell them what's going on, call the urologist and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:So she's on the phone doing all of that and then she gets off the phone and she is, you know, I sat back down and she is knelt in front of me helping me to put pressure where the blood loss was happening and I just put my head we touch foreheads and I just broke down crying and she was like babe, why are you crying? I was like I'm just having a hard time not remembering what we went through during that miscarriage and it's like our roles are reversed now and I'm like I know this can't compare in any way, shape or form, but now I have some sort of an inside perspective of what you went through, bro. That was, that was. That was such a powerful moment and it has marked me since then.
Speaker 3:This is perfect. This is perfect timing to bring this up now. Now, because it's that feeling of, like you said, never really truly being and like you said it's. There's a whole lot of background as to why, not right, but the helplessness, your body, just suddenly doing something, something is wrong and being you know this is coming from you, you know in your most private areas of your body is doing everything is not supposed to do, suddenly, at that moment, and there's nothing you can do, you know, and like you said, man, to just like throwing you back, like, oh man, I'm not even speaking properly right now. My mind is blown, like that's, and obviously, like this is an incredible, like wow, this is amazing, just laugh about it. Like no, like this is like yo, to know that for a moment you at least got some kind of insight, you know, some kind of a feeling, and even to be able to express it in that moment. Man, that's it.
Speaker 1:It gave me an appreciation for what that moment was like, like I said, in a really small way right because she was having a miscarriage. I thought I was. I thought I was just losing my left nut. Yeah, but still.
Speaker 1:Wow, but, like you were saying, just that feeling of helplessness, having no control over your body, the horror that I was experiencing within my own thoughts, hmm, just opened up a small window. It's almost like a small peak behind the veil of what I think she was experiencing. And I said that to her, and, and she, she agreed, she validated that perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah she was like, yeah, it wasn't. Like, are you kidding me? You trying to compare this and that? No, it was just like here, here we are. Our roles are reversed. You take the same elements, blood bathroom, screaming out x, y and z, it's the same thing. It's the same thing for different circumstances, of course, but here we were. So, yeah, man.
Speaker 1:So I was asking all those questions, all the God questions, all the why, like where's this impulse coming from? And and and, and why is it that I want to have another child so much? I would cost, like, how far am I willing to go? What am I willing to gain or lose in order to, to, to get this child? And dude, the inner turmoil just kept growing and growing, and growing and growing. But I'm so glad that I I had those conversations with my wife. Yeah, I'm so glad I had those conversations with myself, mm-hmm, I'm so glad that I I Went through that process because, like I said, it's important for me to Understand, to try to understand my motives.
Speaker 1:Yes, in my intentions, yes, and you know, at the end of all of that line of intense questioning, because we, I kept not only did we keep the the conversation going between us, mm-hmm, and we kept coming back to the same Word in complete, in complete, in complete. She felt incomplete. She kept saying I feel like there's someone that's missing, that's still missing in our family. It's like I feel like I still have one more child in me to give. Yeah, like that's. That's how she, she was feeling and I was like I don't. I couldn't understand why I was feeling incomplete. Fast forward, we're not trying to get pregnant again or we're not trying to not get pregnant again. So we made the decision we're gonna approach it like the last time. We're not gonna be like it's happening, I'm ovulating do me.
Speaker 1:We're gonna leave it open-ended. If it doesn't happen by this time, then it's not gonna happen. I think we'll, since I know now how she felt. She knows how I felt. We came to this conclusion together. We would both feel at peace and resolved Obviously she gets pregnant again. Fast forward to the moment of delivery. That Saturday morning this past February of this year 2023, we welcome our son into the world, our second child. We give him the name Eden, which felt right there and the moment we both saw him he was born, vice-cection Doctors held him up. Doctor told us that when she opened up my wife, eden was sunny-side up, so he was just like staring at her, like what up?
Speaker 3:Hey, close that up. You don't live here.
Speaker 1:She picks him up, she holds him up for Michelle and I to see him. We saw him. I saw my son, hmm, and Chris, I cried, bro. I didn't cry for Juki, yeah, but I cried for Eden, and Michelle cried, and we touch Four heads again and we cried together. Just like we cried together on that bathroom floor, this time we're crying together into delivery room. They're patching her up.
Speaker 1:I go to my son, eden, and I sued him once the nurses were finished with him. He was warmed up to the degree that they needed him to warm up. I picked him up and it took a while for for the doctors to patch up. My wife, yeah, and so for about the next 45 minutes to an hour or so, I am holding my son in my arms and it's just the waterworks, bro, it's just. I could not stop crying Because at that moment, the moment we saw him, the moment I held, like that whole moment that he was born, there was this inner peace, legit, the sense of completion, because we knew he was the one that was missing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like that, that was it. Yeah, not only because we had resolved that we, we weren't gonna try to have any more kids, because we could have easily been like Should we just try for a third one? Right, you know what I mean. But it was just like I didn't feel whatever, that angst that I had felt and all of that questioning that I was doing, the moment I saw my son gone, yeah, disappeared. He was the punctuation mark, boom, done, no more.
Speaker 1:So I never got to any of the answers that I was pursuing. Yeah, I never got to the why of any of those questions, or the because, rather, of any of those questions. I never did, bro, I never. To this day. I don't know what was driving this impulse, what was feeding this angst about doing it. I don't know why it made perfect sense for me to wanna plunge back into this journey of attaining a baby After the losses that we've experienced and setting myself up and setting my wife Up to potentially experience similar events, worst events, catastrophic events, and I don't know why those, those chances seem like they were worthwhile. I don't. I don't, and Part of me things that the reason why I even had those questions is obviously because of the loss of my life. That the reason why I even had those questions is obviously because of the experiences that that I've had. Yeah, right, because you're the first time going into we've spoken about this before you're going into wanting to start your family, unless you've been predisposed to the challenges that could happen and trying to get a baby. Like you're not thinking about these things.
Speaker 1:But now I'm on the other side of this experience.
Speaker 1:I'm on the other side of baby loss. I'm on the other side of this stuff. I've had to suffer it in silence. I've had to see my wife and in the most vulnerable that she's ever been, both emotionally and physically and and and spiritually, like I've dealt with my own guilt for not treating her properly. The first time I've dealt with the guilt of.
Speaker 1:I've done all of that. I've been crushed over and over and over and over and over again and then, all of a sudden, I'm still like, yeah, I still want to put myself in this position to do that like you know what I mean. Like I'm on the other side of that. So the line of questioning that I was asking myself is directly as a result of all of these experiences that I've that I've been through, and the moment my son was born, it was that and I felt so at peace and I cried and I told them how much I loved them and I told my wife how much I loved her, and we haven't slept for the past eight months, but we're complete. Yeah, yeah, but we're complete bro.
Speaker 3:If I could say something, because I know we got to close up man, yeah, yeah. But in all of this, even with your line of questioning, I think there is a gift that's inside of it, this gift of partnership.
Speaker 1:Say that louder for the people in the back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know the gift of partnership, man, because you were never alone in that feeling of not being fulfilled. She felt it too, you know. You know, while you're questioning, why do I, why should I put my wife this, why would I do this, why would I do this, it wasn't even necessarily a decision that you're making on your own. It was a decision that she was also making. And ever since the first miscarriage, all the pains, all of the trying again, all of the joys you guys did together. Every decision that was made you guys made together, you know.
Speaker 3:I think that's also one of the reasons why it's important for us as men to talk about this, and I think we might have maybe said this early on. But I think what you are going through by yourself, for those for that, for that time, in those feelings, you shouldn't feel alone because you do have someone that you're going through it with. We're married. So for us as our spouses I'm sure for other people that are in relationships, it will be whoever their girlfriend or boyfriend is. If you're a girl and has miscarriage, what those kinds of things? You know, hey, even if you're the same sex couple, you can still experience the miscarriage, but the power that comes with having someone to go through it, that all with and just validating that we have feelings about it as well, you know, and being able to express that now and express those feelings but then, at the same time, knowing that wait a minute like the person that I'm expressing this to, that I feel like went through way more, actually looks at me and validates those feelings as well. And that's why I thought it was so perfect that you brought up what happened with your vasectomy and the problems that you had, because, yeah, obviously it's not the same.
Speaker 3:But for you to be able to say, hey, this is, I feel like I kind of a little bit understand what you're going through and her being saying yeah and validating for you, you know, again, having Eden getting to the end and you aren't the only one that feels like it's a punctuation point, she feels it too. That's a gift, you know. That's beautiful, and the idea that you get to go through it with someone, even though you feel like you're alone. You're never alone, you were never alone. All the questions that you had, all the doubt that you had there was someone else that was having those thoughts and doubts too. I'm sure that Michelle was thinking to herself should I try again? You know, yeah, sure, she's a little more more resolute than you were. I mean, have you talked to her about that? Have you asked her if she was feeling the same way?
Speaker 1:We know we haven't necessarily talked about that, but in the conversations that we were having following that loss it was obvious that she was also feeling similar things that I was feeling. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you know, and I think that for us as men and women and as being partners in this, this is where we find that common ground in all this, where this is no longer a competition of you know who felt more pain. You know our experiences were very similar. Yes, when it came to the physical part of the event, it happened on two different ends, in two different ways and, sure, mentally you process things differently because we're different people, there's still those same questions that need to be answered. And being able to go through that with someone and in the end and it's obvious that you all felt the same in the end, because both of you are crying you know just that little picture of you two putting your heads together in the end, that symbol of partnership, not just a symbol of partnership, but going through our journey together and reaching the end together. It's like going to the movies with someone, getting to the end of the movie and then both of you stand up and clap. You know, because you both went through that journey, you know that's so beautiful man, that's so beautiful and it's like man out of all the tragedy, out of all that you guys have been through. Here you are at the end with two kids, juki and Eden. Both of you have been through it, but now both of you feel like you've fulfilled.
Speaker 3:You know and I know that there are people that are out there that are probably I mean, there's gotta be people that are going through this alone. Whether you're a woman who had a child and you and that person that you had the child with aren't together anymore, or maybe it's the vice versa you're the man and the woman that you had a child with. You guys are no longer together anymore and you wanna be there but you can't. And then there's that miscarriage that's there. I think that's again why it's so important for us to create this space, so that you do feel like, even though you didn't necessarily have your partner, you do have a community and there are people that also understand how you feel, so you're never alone in your processing. I think that we can also, through this, encourage people to hey, if you are feeling that feeling of unfulfillment, maybe there is something deeper that's driving you. And yeah, we haven't got to the religion thing yet and we definitely I mean, after this, bro, we definitely have to have the religion conversation. I think that's pretty bad.
Speaker 1:It makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like that's gonna be like a series of conversations too. It can't just be just one.
Speaker 3:Facts, facts, cause we're gonna have to delve into that thing, you know, yeah, but that feeling of unfulfillment and that actually being valid, just as valid as the person who says I don't even wanna do this again and never doing it again. Just as valid, you know, but just knowing that, hey, there's a group that's here, that's with you.
Speaker 1:but, man, just in this, just the value and beauty of partnership in this thing, man, I wanna conclude by saying this there is what we're trying to do is, and what we've been doing not even trying anymore, because we're doing it what we've been doing is having, through these conversations, raising awareness number one, calling for dads to acknowledge, embrace and express what their experience is. What our experience is in baby loss is and has been the impacts that it has on us, the need for resources from the medical side for men like you and I who have experienced this. We've been asking for through these conversations. We've been asking for empathy. We've been asking for just an equal level of consideration in as much as you give our female partners, who are obviously deserving of every bit of attention, resource, empathy and all of that stuff as they get.
Speaker 1:None of this makes sense. None of this can even begin to happen. None of this can get to the level that you and I are hoping, are hopeful that it will ultimately get to, if on the ground level, between you and your partner, between me and my partner, if she doesn't respect and validate the experience that I'm having as well, because if she devalues that experience, then nothing else matters. Facts, facts, and that's what dawned on me just now. At no point in this whole process, did Michelle ever make me feel like this was not, like I didn't have the right to feel the things that I was feeling, whether she knew about the extent of what I was feeling or not? At no point did she make me feel like it was not okay for me to be impacted by this. She never took the fact that she was the carrier of the baby as a means of minimizing or even condescending towards me that hey, you can't be on the same level as me. At no point did that happen. And now I'm realizing the value and the gift that that is.
Speaker 1:The takeaway is for our sisters, for our partners, for our female partners to and I'm not saying that this is not happening, but what I'm saying is in a public way, it needs to happen a lot more Like. Our female partners need to shout it from the rooftop if need be, to draw the attention of anyone and everyone family member, friend, medical, professional who seem like they are catering more to her because she has the luxury and privilege of getting the bulk of the attention then she needs to be like hold on, let's now shift that attention to this person right here too, who happens to be the father of this child and invested in the loss that I am experiencing, because you and I, bro, we could talk about how important it is for us to validate our experience and this and that, and the third, we're preaching to the choir, right, right right If she says it and if we have buy-in from her man, that's the game changer for me right there.
Speaker 1:That means everything. That means everything. That means everything. So, kudos to Amber, your wife, for never making you feel like your experience was not valid or that you didn't have reason or platform to feel the way that you felt. Kudos to my wife, kudos to the wives and girlfriends and partners of other men who have also not invalidated their feelings. Now we just need for and it's so crazy because even saying that implies that people the only way that this can get to where it needs to go is, if people actually go through this experience which is troubling in and of itself, nevertheless knowing that miscarriages are gonna come and nevertheless knowing that miscarriages are gonna continue to happen to have to be predisposed to this call to action.
Speaker 1:If you're a woman hearing this portion of this conversation and you care about your partner and you notice that in that moment, which is the worst moment of your life, which is also the same for him, the worst moment of his life If he's being ignored, if he's being under supported, if he is being undermined, if he's being whatever, and you're getting the attention that you absolutely deserve, to call on the attention of the people who are giving you the attention that you absolutely deserve and say give that same amount of energy to him also as a sign of how much you care for this man. Yes, because we're hurting. We're hurting just as you are, and we've explored this through these conversations. Like you said, chris, different ends of the same spectrum. We're hurting, but we need your help, and without your help, we can't get the resources, we can't get the support, we can't get the consideration, we can't normalize this conversation in the way that it needs to be normalized as well. Thank, you.