Welcome to episode 8!
Grief--it's a universal emotion, yet we rarely discuss how it deeply affects men, particularly in the context of miscarriage. As your hosts, Kelly and Chris, we've invited Notorious True for a raw, emotional conversation about the silent struggle of men dealing with miscarriage. Remembering his own experience as a teenager, True paints a vivid picture of the inner turmoil he went through and emphasizes the importance of giving men a platform to voice their heartaches.
In a riveting conversation, we shift the focus to True, who provides enlightening insights into the bittersweet journey of transitioning into fatherhood. Here's a tale of joy, anticipation, and the painful setback of miscarriage that led him to reflect on the societal expectations weighing heavy on men's shoulders. How can we reshape society's narrative, allowing men to openly express their emotions? As True shares his story, he brings to the forefront the reality of suppressed grief and the need for emotional support during these trying times.
True's story is a testament to the transformative power of fatherhood and the fortitude he found amidst adversity. Through a heart-wrenching loss, he found strength, self-reflection, and a renewed connection with God. This conversation serves to underscore the significance of creating safe spaces for men to bare their souls, honoring their experiences, and enabling them to lend support to others walking in their shoes.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Welcome to episode 8!
Grief--it's a universal emotion, yet we rarely discuss how it deeply affects men, particularly in the context of miscarriage. As your hosts, Kelly and Chris, we've invited Notorious True for a raw, emotional conversation about the silent struggle of men dealing with miscarriage. Remembering his own experience as a teenager, True paints a vivid picture of the inner turmoil he went through and emphasizes the importance of giving men a platform to voice their heartaches.
In a riveting conversation, we shift the focus to True, who provides enlightening insights into the bittersweet journey of transitioning into fatherhood. Here's a tale of joy, anticipation, and the painful setback of miscarriage that led him to reflect on the societal expectations weighing heavy on men's shoulders. How can we reshape society's narrative, allowing men to openly express their emotions? As True shares his story, he brings to the forefront the reality of suppressed grief and the need for emotional support during these trying times.
True's story is a testament to the transformative power of fatherhood and the fortitude he found amidst adversity. Through a heart-wrenching loss, he found strength, self-reflection, and a renewed connection with God. This conversation serves to underscore the significance of creating safe spaces for men to bare their souls, honoring their experiences, and enabling them to lend support to others walking in their shoes.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Maybe she didn't think I hurt her. Maybe she didn't think I took it serious. Maybe she didn't think. You know my response I, but in a sense I was not trying to have that hurt. I didn't want that's not. That wasn't a reality I was ready to face. You know what I'm saying. Especially, you know we're going with life. You know, I felt like this child was, you know, my male ticket out of this Way of thinking, this way. This man that I am is like, and now it was like I'm brought back to this. I won't say hell, but my reality at the time.
Speaker 2:This is the Miss Carriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of Miss Carriage by normalizing dads, openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. All right, welcome to yet another episode of the Miss Carriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host. My name is Chris, I'm your co-host and we are so excited that you all have number one stuck with us this far, yes, and number two that you've decided to come and hang out with us for this brand new episode again. So I am here. We are here, as a matter of fact. We are here, chris and I, with someone who I've gotten to know a little bit over the past, let's say year or so, through a mutual friend that goes way back to middle school, my man Dre, and every week they have this podcast called B&B, blunts and Bonnets, and they get together and they just talk about all sorts of crazy things and interesting things. And during the actual live IG live which happens at what time? True, every Tuesday nights, or on like 8, 830.
Speaker 1:Yes sir, 8pm Tuesday nights. Yeah, I mean guns blazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my guy, go ahead and introduce yourself and let us know what your name is, a little bit of what you do where you are, and just wanted to say thank you for joining on beforehand. Man, Go ahead.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely. My name is Zittoria, it's true man, true for short. I'm sort of a mogul man. I build businesses, been growing models, certain few things, kind of building the business like that, family businesses, podcasting as my family and my kids always brought down for me.
Speaker 2:And my partners, you know, and growing with great people, man.
Speaker 1:You know rights is people, good, harder people and creating a good impact. You know kind of showing that there's still some good ones out here, man.
Speaker 1:Some people that are really out here. Still the root for you guys, you know, root for the billboards, man, that's, you know, like the other dogs and they don't look out here. But I definitely have to thank y'all, man, for one one. I'll set it to you guys, I'll set it to you all there and all that man, that this platform alone is very, very, very needed. Man, I didn't think I was going to have a place to, you know, speak on certain terms and especially this. You know I'm having especially dealing with miscarriages from a male's perspective. You know what I'm saying. I dealt with it. I don't lie. I dealt with it in my early teens. You know I'm not early teens, but my later teens, later teens I was like 19 or something like that.
Speaker 2:My girlfriend at the time, we thought we had a world figured out you know, I was going to.
Speaker 1:you know, probably at that time I was going to marry this person we were going to be. You know, life was figured out. Now I'm not going to lie, life wasn't figured out, but life was. You know, I was living a certain lifestyle, you know, came from a street light, came from a certain light understanding of life. So I would say my lifestyle was pretty, you know, unstable, I just put it like that, pretty unstable.
Speaker 1:One day you could be doing this and one day you could be incarcerated, things you know, taking certain risks, things like that, but with the good intentions and, honestly, even you know, in hindsight and thinking back, I still feel like that's still a part of a cause, of, like you know, the stress that was brought onto my partner at the time.
Speaker 2:You know, okay, so before we get there, before we get there, let's step. Let's step all the way back and then walk us through, walk us through your experience. So you're talking about late teens, early 20s, when this is going on. So who was true back then? Late teens, early 20s, with his partner at the time?
Speaker 1:I was a young misunderstood, you know, had been kicked out of my mother's house at your early age. So, you know, I was kind of like this young guy with a chip on his shoulder, with it in my mind, with something you know that I'm not. You know, although you may see this on the outside, how I am on the inside, who I am, is not defined by you know, some of the mistakes I made, some of the things that I've been through, some of the things that I've been growing up with, you know, I am a good hearted guy. You know, a good hearted man I, you know, I love just as hard, you know, but it will go hard for the ones that you know are here for me. Now, a little misguided I would. I would say a little bit of misguided, you know I was, you know, figuring it out on my own.
Speaker 2:So, and then you know, taking some way shape or form. We were all kind of misguided around that phase, right. Like so how old were we talking about? True?
Speaker 3:I would say about like 18, 19, you know, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I made some mistakes at 18, 19. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, you definitely got out of high school early. You know it was very, very intelligent, though. Let me tell you that. So when, I say by you know, and that's not. I was, you know, doing a little serving here and there in school and making, making my extra dollars here and there, if you know, you know, coming from that I kind of in goes into a certain lifestyle. I had a certain age because I thought that was what I had to do.
Speaker 1:I was like that. So when I got guided at that time, it was like boy, it's okay, this is what was my environment, which ultimately ended up getting me kicked out of my mother's house and, you know, still growing and then still pushing this way. But very intelligent, I mean, you're not going to just be able to get over on me by. You know a few things. Certain things were. I questioned everything, so it was almost like when I would have issues in classroom because I was going to sleep in class.
Speaker 1:It was one of those students, that was sleeping class, right, because I'm out there also helping with bills and household and high school. But when the teacher thinking I'm not paying attention, I realized and understanding it. I'm passing on my test.
Speaker 2:But they'll try to, you know you haven't had those times where you had those students.
Speaker 3:That you think?
Speaker 1:they're asleep and not paying attention and teacher calls them out. You know they try to show them out and he takes them with the right. And it's like oh, oh well, keep your head up, let me see your eyes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know, gotta you know and thought you know. Of course, at that age you think you know everything, so no one can tell you. You think you're invincible. You hear that a lot when you're saying, you know, you think you're invincible, you're invisible, you're invisible and that. And honestly, at that point I thought I was, you know, I thought I was, you know, invincible, that you know, nothing could touch me, and I felt like God was, in certain subtle ways, showing me that, you know, this world can affect me in very many ways.
Speaker 2:So in that same sense.
Speaker 1:You know I have my girlfriend. We just got got to start getting together and in our terms, at that time, at that age, we were our lives. Bonnie and Clark, you know that was. You know you know the whole JZ and Beyonce, you know Bonnie and Clark was out. You were thinking that. You know it was you, us, against the world. You know when.
Speaker 1:I she. She said to me for who I was and I said to her and loved her, for you know the things that she did in her life, you know, for you know her damage, her damage, when she went. So of course we go together. I would say we practiced a lot of time for a child and learn about whole at four and for a while too, I will honestly say because of lifestyle, for I thought I was, you know, wasn't sure if I was able to have a child.
Speaker 1:I was there and then had the child.
Speaker 1:I mean, I mean she's, you know, it's been back and let's me know that she's pregnant and, opposite of what her expectation was, that she was afraid to tell me at first. You know, oh, you know, listen to that lifestyle, thinking that I would not, you know, agree or be even and remotely excited for it. But I was, I was actually excited, oh, but oh, height, okay. So now we're on another, another plateau. You know, we're here now, okay. So, um, we put another little excess of stress on myself as well, because, okay, now I have to kind of be a man you know, I'm already a man, but in my mind but it's time to be step up. Another level We'll be now have to make sure, so?
Speaker 2:so let me, let me pause you, right, because I feel like you're about to respond to the question that I'm going to ask you. Prior to her telling you that she was pregnant, you just said that you were already a man, so you saw yourself as a man. Describe yourself how you saw yourself as a man then. And then what did it mean after? What did it mean to be a man to you after she told you that you were going to be a father?
Speaker 1:Me, being a man in my at that time was more so, like you know, other subtle things. I was very, very polite. I was there for her in many ways that she, you know, needed to be stepped up to the plate For. So how my heart was as well to you know, showing this needs thing. If it needed to be handled, I was going to be. You definitely call me, I was going to take care of.
Speaker 1:Provider protector, protector of top day. You know just the most simplest ways, you know the, I would say, the most basic ways those bullets is recovered. So it's a me. I'm like that's a man, you know. It ain't now providing. When I say when she told me she was pregnant and she was going to be a mother and I was on the father, the level up for me was more so. Having to okay certain things may have to either change or step up within me as far as like the way I looked at life, as far as like not just being a man, but like the lifestyle that I was living and the way I was living, you know, was, you know, was this really a lifestyle that I want to, you know, internally keep bringing a child into it, and is that the kind of man or father that I want my child to see?
Speaker 1:You know, I always, you know, looked at, you know, as far as, like male role models that I looked up to, you know, although I didn't grow with my father and I was, you know, grew with a lot, you know, got a lot of game for, you know, men in the streets of certain male figures, you know, set out to my, my, my mother's husband at the time, stepfather, he, he definitely stepped up as a man, but we wasn't at on the same plateau as well, we were at odds as well.
Speaker 1:So I was more so looking at. You know a lot of those sitcom fathers Let me put it like that you know, which were opposite of my life style, that's. You know you build costumes, you know you're Uncle Fields. You know those to me were like man, those are real fathers, you know those are. You know, stepping to the plate, you know Steve Harvey. You know I looked at Steve Harvey at one point was like yo, that's, that's okay, that's what I mean, you know, that's how to be.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know how you handle things as a man. You know running successful. He's not. You know, in this, this lifestyle that I'm living, you know, and when you're young you don't think about. You know the, you know where they come from and things like that. You're just looking at what they're at now and I'm going to be of any. You know success of being a, success of being a man to my child. I need to shoot him out of myself, like these particular men, you know.
Speaker 1:Especially I was like yo, I'm feel like I'd be like him you know, you know, with this post conference of being, you know, a successful black male but at the same time, you know, being a real great father figure, you know standpoint of what a man was when it came to even with Will, you know. You know even the whole episode. You know I was big on the episode where, you know, will's father came and you know I feel like it related so strongly. You know what I'm saying. His father came and then he had life to live, you know, and again, in regards to still shout out to my father because that man is a great man, still stepped up so, but in this time of my life I was connected with him as well. So yeah.
Speaker 1:I was getting my own, my own recipes. As far as being a man. So I would say the answer to that question usually was definitely him being like. You know, the uncle Phil's. You know saying that watching that, watching how he test-tied Will's father and show them how he stepped up and then towards the end you know it was like he was when his father left and his father real father figure wasn't able to step up to being a father, will show you like what not to be as a being a father. And I always say to myself I will never let my child feel that, I will never let my child feel what it is to be in this world without, you know, saying that feeling. So I'm going to be that more. If I got to do what I got to do, yeah, it may not be great from my standpoint, but I have to do what I have to do to figure it out. But when it comes down to this child, I don't want to do an ounce of the pain and anger and the anguish I felt.
Speaker 2:Chris, you and I were talking about this in one of our previous episodes.
Speaker 2:Right, we're talking about what true is describing, but from the standpoint of when our partners, our wives, told us that they were pregnant, that we were going to become fathers. We spoke about this in terms of we starting to create this world, this reality about what our lives with this child would be like. Right, like who is this baby going to be? I like the angle, though that true is bringing up, because he's talking about not just like what he's, not just the world that started to form in his mind was not just a matter of like what this baby is going to be like as much as who am I going to be? Now that this baby has been, you know, it is coming Like, right. I mean, I don't know if, in your experience, when you were anticipating Chris, or in the moment that Amber told you guys that you were pregnant and then you know the child that ended up resulting in the miscarriage, or even with Randall, was that something that was also like true to you, particularly in the angle that true is describing it.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, oh yeah, like Kelly, true, I'm really glad that you're bringing this up, because it is something that I. Another part of this entire thing that I didn't think about too was, like you said, kelly, now that imagination that's growing, not just for my child but for me, and the changes that I'm going to go through, you know, moving from and we all view it as a step up right Moving from manhood to fatherhood. Yeah, you know, it's a different step, a different word, a different feel. Just being a man and paying bills, oh, no, now I'm a father. You know, I would say it's even a step up from being a husband. You're a father. You know, and, like you're saying true, the changes that you're going through, the expectations that you're now setting for yourself and imagining the kind of father that you want to be, and the excitement that comes with it. Because, even with what was something that you said true, in not knowing if you could even have kids, you weren't sure. And now, all of a sudden, boom, your girl's pregnant.
Speaker 3:You're about, you're going to be a father, and now you get to be the person who for you at that time because he says, shout out to your dad, dad's a good dude at the time who you felt like your dad wasn't. Now you get to fulfill that for someone else. Now you get to hey, wait a minute. Now I can bring joy. That's me a joy bringer, a happiness bringer. I can be a protector, I can be all of these things now, and not only can I be, but I want to be. And that beginning of growth, that beginning of imagination, it's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3:And I think that's also what makes it so hard when that's lost. Because, like you're saying, kelly, in terms of this thing that's built up well, we've talked about it. You build up this in your mind and then that is gone. Well, it's the same thing in terms of building yourself up now to be a father and now suddenly that is all gone. How do you as a man move backwards? Now you know it's almost like your award has been forcibly taken away from you, that promotion has been forcibly taken away from you and everything that you imagine. You also now must agree. Even for me, I had Chris first and then I had him as carriage. But even in changing now to not just being like a father of one but a father of two, now all of a sudden that expectation is gone and the thought processes of what it's going to be like now to have two kids versus one is suddenly gone. That's a lot. That's a lot and, man, I'm really glad you're going down this way. This is true.
Speaker 2:This is good. So we're going to come back to this, true, but I do want you to move the story forward. But I really appreciate you bringing that nuance out of this whole process that I believe every single man goes through the moment you hear those words You're going to be a father. Because to me, in the moment of miscarriage or, you know, in other iterations of a pregnancy, loss like those things are precisely the things that are at work in the background, as we are either invited to or accepted in to grieve openly, or being told that we cannot. You know, it's unacceptable for us to grieve openly at the same time that our wife or our girlfriend or our partner is grieving. So we're going to come back to that, bro, but I go ahead and move the story forward. So here you are, you're thinking about all of these things. Your girlfriend at the time tells you you know you're going to be a father. So what happens next?
Speaker 1:Burning along, I get. I say about like the second to the third month we are. I want to say it's pretty tough for me at that time. We were going through a few different changes. The arguments and fights got a lot more.
Speaker 1:You know, it was a lot more, I would say more stress on both of our hands. It went from, you know, I'll call it that honeymoon phase of the, of the feeling where it's like, oh, it's breaking, it's like reality hits us in the face real hard, okay, well, no, we're going to do how we're going to provide the listeners and this and that, and as I'm doing, the life that I'm living, you know, the life that I'm living, you know, although at one point the woman that was accepting of it, you know, is now hitting me with a reality check and saying you know, this is not a lifestyle you know that.
Speaker 1:I want to bring my child into Now. I know you know, I understood that you know um, but at the same time it was like okay, well, while I, you know, still building in this era and working in you know these different jobs and doing these things like that, and also going to live in lifestyle and going Um, just know, you know they. I have a good intention for this, you know. The intentions are still good, you know, but it didn't lessen the arguments, didn't lessen the restraint and the stress on both of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that that's interesting because the the image that's coming to mind right now is true. He's talking about this, chris is this rub right between the? The person who I want to become, right like this discovery of, like you said, it's not just being a man or being a husband, you're becoming a father, right like that in itself carries its own implications. So this is the man that I want to become here, on this side, but then this is who I am currently, and there is this whole trajectory, there's this whole history that has led me to this point, and it's not two different people, it's it's two different identities one that is established as who I am now, the one who is beginning to to sprout as a result of expecting this baby to come. And now these two identities are clashing against each other within the same mind, within the same person.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I can totally understand, you know, shorty, saying, hey, who you are now is not, is not the the type of man that you know you need to be or you have to be when this baby comes? But from from, I can imagine, true, like from from your standpoint. It's not that, like you, don't necessarily see the difference between who you are and who you want to be. It's just a matter of like, this transition is taking time. It's going to take time, and I'm trying to figure out how to better make that transition happen without necessarily just like jumping from one thing to another, because in reality you just can't.
Speaker 1:And this is a fact. You know so, and, and I will honestly say I'll take the fulcrum, you know, a, the, the way I am now is in how I'm able to express Emotions and articulate how I felt was way different from 19 year old too. So I'm just moving on action, you know, I'm just, when it's brought to me, I'm giving you a, a, a, I'm arguing my response, you know I'm, you know, getting just as angry with you know, if you, how do you not see this, how I'm pulling da-da-da-da and that stress doesn't take, doesn't, you know, take well, with anyone, you know, and not just me. But you know I'm also, you know, was forgetting at the time that this, the stress that is also way on the bearer of my child. You know, the one is to bear my child. Yeah, and with that being said, our friction I Fast-forward to say that friction ultimately caused.
Speaker 1:I remember getting a call and it was crazy because she we were talking about, like you know, her, her menstrual, and she was like it feels she was like I'm not gonna lie, I feel a little different this time around. It was kind, it was crazy because she was saying it beforehand but it didn't confirm until after, so it was more so. She was like I feel like I'm you know she was, we was having an argument and Her response back she was like a I don't feel like you did it, like I feel like I'm losing everything. I feel like I'm losing this baby. I'm like I'm losing you and I'm like and I Was here, you know, I heard it from the, you know you lose me, you're not losing me. What, what do you mean? And then to hear her say I feel like I'm losing this baby and I'm like hey, you know, and in the first part portion of it, I'm like hey, hey, don't say that.
Speaker 1:You know yeah don't, don't, do that, don't, don't. I know you mad at me, I know. I know you're upset. I know you're your father, I know it's not going the way you're hoping to, but don't, don't, don't do that, don't, don't put that on my baby, yeah exactly, you know, from a man standpoint.
Speaker 1:So I was like, hey, hey, don't, don't, don't do that. But in real hindsight she was just expressing exactly what was going on with the time, you know. Yeah. So I say a little bit further down, she, you know things were, she wasn't feeling. She still was feeling worse. She's you know more her cramps, her things were hitting hard. It's easy. No, she says she was feeling less kicking she was. He wasn't feeling okay, she was just she was feeling it less, she was like she was, in her words, she was feeling the life training.
Speaker 2:Wow, like that's what she had Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, and I Remember her. You know I was on about and I was got a call and she was like, yeah, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go come see you. This is that. And she didn't call me. What happened? She called me after, you know, I'm saying mm-hmm, after, such as she was like no, I, I went to, I'm like okay, so what's going on? What's really no champion. So you know, same way, and she goes yes, it's gone.
Speaker 1:I want you to like. It's maybe no, he's going, and Her first response she's crying, but more so I felt like she was. She was angry with me, but she was also trying not to, in her way, put it on me, but she still felt a resentment. Is that making sense? Yeah, yeah, like it was. It wasn't she, she wasn't. She didn't go so far as to say was your fault. You know that I respect her, for you know I'm saying, but they didn't, you know, lighten the weight or lighten the load on me, because that's what I felt. I felt you know the reason I felt these things and I felt, you know things like that, in the stress I'm like they know I ultimately cause this. You know and you know, ultimately, this lifestyle Caused the light. This is the way.
Speaker 1:I was going. Well, it caused a life, and not a life that you know, it was stripped away. Like you said, it was just stripped away. That that bit of happiness, that bit of Great moment, it was like, okay, what I'm working for, it was just, you know, yeah, knocked away. So that new goal and within myself, kind of dissipated, I'm not gonna lie, you know, it kind of created a New word downwards viral, because I felt like this was an emotion I couldn't express to her because she was never going to.
Speaker 1:Not say never hear me out because you know she's listening. But you know, when you're young it's. You know, especially from a man and a woman standpoint, your point matters more than the next. You know, and as a man I kind of understood at that time. Like you know, it's how I was made to understand the field that you know, this is her body. I was called to this. How she feels is number one priority. You know I'm saying what I feel. You know, because I also was tall. You know you got to be that rock. Put this. You know what I felt was backburner. I had to check it up, put my chest out like listen, All right.
Speaker 1:You know, Obviously, the how I feel and the hurt I'm feeling when I feel like I'm crushed in this moment. You know I'm saying because I'm not a lot felt crushed.
Speaker 1:Hmm, I felt crushed and it was like a real reality check in my life, like you know, did I cause my child, you know, did I do that? The reason for it was this excess stress, you know, and this lifestyle. You know, who am I in this moment, hmm, who I thought I was and who I was at that moment I'm we're two different people, you know, and that that definitely hit me with a real reality check and all I could do there was try to be there for but I ultimately, you know, because I'm not, I understand, really understood that that caused the rip and really caused a real rip between, honestly, she. It wasn't a hate there, she didn't hate, you know, she still love me, but there was a strong, quiet resentment. That was there, you know.
Speaker 1:Also, you know, I'm her many young, you know, she was the Things that were her hand in it as well, was pretty much overlooked. It was more so, you know. Hey, you, you, you, you know, you are the stress, the arguments that we would have the thing when you were not listening to me.
Speaker 1:We're not hearing me out and I'm just trying to stress tired I was here. I was. You know. What do you think I was trying to do? What do you think I was working? What do you think I was building? What do you think I was going for? You know I Wanted to be a father. You know More than you understand, because in her mind, no, well, you know, oh, this is going down. This is what you probably wanted anyway.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm saying because you know You're young, probably the one a child by this and that I'm speaking to. You know, friends like you know, you know, I'll see why she doesn't get it, you know. And then certain friends there, you know well, maybe you know, although being empathetic, there, of course, there, trying to be, you know, give, be comfort as much as they can. But when you're young and man, you know, and they're young and a couple of a few others were older, you know, that would give me a little bit better with better words, not wisdom, better words, not with no, they were more empathetic in that aspect where they would say you know, you know well, maybe, of course you know you hear the, the usuals, you know well, maybe you know everything works in guys time, so maybe it wasn't, you know you can't rush, you can't rush these things.
Speaker 1:Listen, man, as a man you know it was. As a man, you know this Charges into the game you know this is Things happen on the time.
Speaker 3:Wow, yeah, you know, it's just that language that kills me, you know. You know, these things just happen. What you know? Oh, just chalk it up to the game. What game? What game are we playing, you know?
Speaker 1:because I'm living life right. I'm not playing catch. I'm not playing.
Speaker 1:This is not a game to me. While you guys ain't able to say that, with with free conscious, I'm sitting home at night, you know, and sitting in those moments and those knows times of despair with myself, wondering like that. Well you know man, what? Because the band I could be sitting here with my man. I'm a little little right here, because I was. I just knew I was gonna have a little boy. I just knew it. Yeah, I was gonna be my little man, I was gonna show him this and I had the whole thing played up. I don't have the uncle feel seen played out. Come here, give me a hug. Oh, knock off his hat, take over my young team. He was gonna be. You know the legacy. Oh, you know, um, question things again. The new Malcolm X or two box of pure whatever you needed. I was. I was gonna steal it to this new man. Yeah, and honestly, I was ready to steal what I thought I liked as well.
Speaker 2:True. Take me, take me into those moments where Because I think it's fascinating that she called you after the fact so so, number one, what was that like for you? Because you said in the beginning is not that you didn't want to become a father, or anything Like when she told you you are gonna be a dad instantly, you knew these are the things that I need to do. I want to become a better man than I am now. So your intention had always been to be involved, without any question.
Speaker 2:I was about to say as much as possible, but that would be untrue to what I'm thinking your intentions were at the time. Your intention was to just be involved, period, at all costs, no matter what. Did it feel to you like? She stole an opportunity from you to be there at the time that she went to the hospital? Number one, and the second question is, as she's telling you this over the phone after the fact, what was that experience like for you? What did that feel like for you, knowing that yo, I could have been there, but what happened?
Speaker 2:What happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there was a few things with that because, granted, I think our last interaction prior to that was a big argument. We had a good big argument and I remember expressing to her that regardless of how you feel I'm going. No, I definitely felt like I knew that I expressed enough to where she understood that this was a blessing to me as much as it was time.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying. This was not a burden to me. This is not you know, and I care for you as much as you like. You know I want you know I'm getting up. You hit me up at certain times at night, me having random cravings I think I believe you know I'm very much involved, yeah, and so to be told after that was another moment that was stripped from me. I felt cheated. I felt cheated. I'm okay, loki. Felt betrayed you know what.
Speaker 1:I'm saying, and that same aspect, and again, you know, I had, as a man, I made my men's, in the quickness of you know what, that's just how her, as a woman, she was going to receive this motion, this situation we did. You know, I tried to rationalize you know we tried to rationalize a lot of things.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying, so I tried to rationalize it. Well Now, maybe the reason that she felt that she went by herself which I still didn't understand was, you know, of course, we did have a big blow up.
Speaker 1:So you know, naturally, you know this is just her response and this here. And maybe maybe when we were going out and she felt like you know, this hurt and this thing you know, and she, I remember her mention, like I said, mentioning the you know, I felt like losing baby thing. I'm like, well, maybe she didn't think I hurt her, maybe she didn't think I took it serious, maybe she didn't think, you know, you know my response, but in a sense I was not trying to have that hurt. That's not. That wasn't a reality I was ready to face.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Especially, you know we're going with life. You know I felt like this child was. You know, my mill ticket out of this way of thinking, this way, this man that I am, this life. And now it was like I'm brought back to this. I won't say hell, but my reality of hell at the time.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And it's like my answer to that was what was it? I will always say that you know my heart turned black situation. You know that it kind of threw my heart in a in a black, you know in a black bag. Okay, you know this and this and that, now have to. You know that moment where my heart was pumping. Now it's, it's black gold and you stole a moment where I could even not even just show that I care. But that moment for me, that was extremely important to me. It wasn't just your job. You know what I'm saying. This was our moment and but yeah, you know that was definitely and went to some self-blame into myself.
Speaker 1:You know those moments. It was definitely pretty dark for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, chris, you were going to say something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just, you know, cause something that you said true in terms of this child being your way to change, like your door away to change, and for it to be closed like that, of course you would feel helpless because you felt like that was your path to be the new person, to be the new man you know, and then to have those feelings on top of it that it was that you had a heavy part to play in that door being closed. I mean that that is a heavy burden to carry. You know, from that point on, to feel like you're, you wanting to be a good person. You want, I just say, good person, but better person in terms of your actions, right, and wanting to move forward. You felt like it was closed and then feeling like again, you have a hand in closing that. That's tough, that's really tough and, of course, being able to look back on things on the high side.
Speaker 3:You know, when it comes to these kinds of things, you know we would, of course, say it's no one's fault, right, but that doesn't change the feelings of guilt. You know it doesn't matter, you can, you can know the facts. You know, but the facts don't. It doesn't, it's not necessarily going to change your feeling. You know, and even the way that you're speaking about it now still feels like there's a tinge of that that's still there. You know, especially with this, I mean it changed your entire outlook, changed your entire future. You know the person that you thought you were going to be with again, like you said, like the man that you were going to be all of these things coming crashing down at once and then feeling like you weren't even able to be there for to see it fall. That all happened on a phone call.
Speaker 1:And I'm not going to lie, I definitely I would say question everything and I said I wouldn't guard God at that moment in life where I questioned God. I definitely did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely questioned God. What were some of those questions, true, like take me, take me into your mind at that time.
Speaker 1:What were some of those things that Um one of the questions was like no one of course the one at the ultimate moment was like are you real and what? And then, if you are real, like what the hell, why what?
Speaker 1:what, what, what, why am I going to these things? What, what did I do so? So, if you're real, what did I do so much that you're punishing me? Well, why do I have to be? Or, if you're really, are you just some figment of my imagination? And everybody's been giving me this game and telling me that this, this and and you know, this is what's really going on. This is like we're out here living this life, and that's just at one point at my my. You know what people make of God, because they just need to escape, escape.
Speaker 1:You know um, questioning everything in life like what's life about? You know this is, you know it's. We're wasting time. Why am I, am I even here? You know um, how can I even bring myself to loving this person that I'm with Um, when I'm not sure if I can even love myself at this?
Speaker 3:moment.
Speaker 2:I'm real, that's real, that's real, I'm real.
Speaker 1:This person, you know this person know what love is. I know this person is blaming me because of the reason they resent me. I feel it they're not telling me this. I just feel it. What God, why am I going through this? Are you even there? Are you even listening? I mean even down to those those simple like are you even listening? You know this. They are all out. You know you feel like you're not hearing that back.
Speaker 2:You almost feel like you're crazy at that time, don't you? Like, yeah, like, have you been lied to this whole time? Like is, am I in the matrix right now? Like what the hell is going on?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it is, it is, it's a tough tough space.
Speaker 1:It is, it is, it is, it is, it was, it was definitely was a tough space. You know um, you know it was a silly game in my, my, my, um. What is this?
Speaker 2:And and and and. On top of all of that, right to the point that you mentioned earlier about creating this, or the sense in you, rather, that was sparked. I need to be a better person, right, I need to give to my little man even parts of what I didn't get growing up. Right there there's all of this that all of a sudden it just disappeared the moment that you're hearing, after the fact so that's yet another layer of this whole thing after the fact that you're no longer going to be a father because your lady had a miscarriage. So, going back to that moment, did you ever spend some time in that space of loss Like yo? This is not just I lost my baby. I lost this baby, who I was for sure was going to be a boy which is itself another reality and all of the expectations that came with that.
Speaker 2:So you spoke about all of the TV dads that you were looking up to and that you wanted to be for your son, but as an actual dad. That's gone, right, we can't have that Uncle Phil moment anymore, right, we can't create that stability of Bill Cosby anymore, like that's gone. And then the man who would have been the Uncle Phil or the Dr Huxtable. Now that man is gone, and so who I'm left with is the who I am now, who I was actually trying to evolve out of or from. So did you ever spend any time thinking about, or just kind of, what did that loss? As the question this way what did that loss mean to you? Did you ever see it as a loss? Did it even cross your mind?
Speaker 1:No, it was definitely a loss. It definitely crossed my mind that it was a loss, like I said, out of my heart went to, like I said, black in a sense. But it was like, well, maybe this life, this, this I realized in hindsight now I'm thinking back on it and really been, you know, I had set with it what I attached to my child that was my, you know, unborn child was a hope Was a strong sense of hope, and what was more so lost in that was hope.
Speaker 1:I'm not gonna lie, that's what, in that moment, that's so, did I feel lost. Yes, I lost hope, I lost, you know, I lost that in that, in that child and that moment, because you know it was almost like seeing you, know, living in a, dealing with the clouds right, you know living in that storm.
Speaker 1:Right, you know we were talking about the hurricane, right? You know that eye of that storm and that eye of that storm you see it strong. Sometimes you know what I'm saying you see a moment where it's just calm, peaceful, you're like this is that? Was that hope for me? And then brought crashing right back down into the storm. So that loss felt like a hurricane for me, if I can be honest. It felt like I seen hope and I seen the light. I seen that calmness. This is where this light is. This is where I see that glimmer of light, glimmer of shine. Okay, I can be this, I can do this, this is the man I can be. And then there was, like storm. It cannot be that man. Am I even? Am I kidding myself? I lost all hope in that, am I? I might as well be what everyone said I am. You know what I'm saying. I might as well live with everyone and stand out to beat you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:How did you work through that, true? How did you get to a place of reconciling those ends, of making those ends meet?
Speaker 1:For a while. It had to work it out, but I honestly I'm gonna be loving the audience. I had to hit rock bottom Because what I thought was rock bottom there wasn't rock bottom. Rock bottom for me was being in the hole and on lockdown and really having a real conversation with God. And I'm actually responding to my spirit. Actually, I actually am in my spirit, really realizing what it was and seeing what it was.
Speaker 1:Because I was, although I still had the good intentions, because I still although my heart went black for a while, I still couldn't bring myself to be as much still come to anyone with no genuine intention. I can still bring, you know, malicious, you know I'm still gonna look. You're maliciously tricksing one out and stuff. I never had that in me. So that was still a little piece of that glimmer hope within me as well.
Speaker 1:And then hitting rock bottom and being like down, having that conversation, talking to God and saying, you know, just being completely real myself. You know I'm tired of this, this cycle. I was tired of who, what was coming to be. I know who I can be. I know what it was and you know I kind of challenge God. You know what I'm saying to God, if I'm gonna be this, what you keep putting in me for some reason, I keep seeing it. I see what's going on, but it's not translating into the life that I'm having to deal with. I'm making the best choices that I can and they're paying me to be the Joker when I have a heart of you know what I'm saying, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:And if I'm to be in this life just to leave his lifestyle, god, I'm gonna need your help. Like they say, we can call on you. You know my mom talks about this all the time. I have all my spiritual experiences since I was young, you know. So I, you know, I tried to say that. You know he wasn't real at one point, you know, but you quickly showed me that was he was saying so, god, I really, if you were really gonna be real in my life and I'm gonna I need to turn and I'm willing to take the steps. But I can't lie and, like I can do this on my own, I need your help because I'm going through hell.
Speaker 1:I'm living in hell.
Speaker 2:That's real bro that's real bro.
Speaker 1:So once they went from there, it really wouldn't. You know the turret, you know what I'm saying. It went through a real turn. I ended up, of course, you know, having a child now, a daughter, now she's nine years old, beautiful. You know, smart is one of the smartest things I know.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying, but of course everybody says that you know they don't like to have the smartest, but very good, and I also teach her very. You know as much as well, but that's a fast forward though. But yeah, it took the rock bottom, you know, for me to, and God's way of proving to me that he's there is. I've always been a radical, like I question everything, right. So God does things in ways to where it's no denying for me. I don't know how he shows up in her. How have people received God in their life? Shows up in anyone else's life, but for me he doesn't. In the most radical ways where it's like you know what? There's no question, because I questioned so much, he presents it in ways that you like me in my path. There's no question that was my God, because there's no way this person could have did this. There's no way that I could have had this happen. There's no way me sitting here and this and this whole.
Speaker 1:I get out and time I was supposed to spend further. The further it goes down. I'm time is dwindling down and they're getting less and less. They're not finding charges on me. You know what I'm saying. There, there, there, there. It's getting wiped away. It's almost like God was giving me a reset.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:To where I'm sitting there and he's now at this charges job. They dropped this job down to a possession. Wow, they dropped this down to this. They dropped this down to that, and I'm now and I ain't.
Speaker 2:No, for me, I ain't no cooperate with.
Speaker 1:It's. Trust me, it wasn't on. It wasn't on the second day I got into, got into the lockdown. I the second day, me and the CEO got it to, which will put me in the hole. So I was in the hole, for those are they confine Right. They were Boom Y'all, you don't, you don't like to rock out this and this and that. Ok, you're going to go here. Then to coming out, there was OK, we'll give you a little job. Here you work in the kitchen. Here you clean this area. Here Got it to what? Another CEO over something minister, because and there you know, they try to express their dominance, especially if they're not dominant. They don't have that type of personality outside of that work space yeah, but inside they try to show that yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that power inside there and being in a place where you have to admit to yourself that you're powerless. You know what I'm saying, because I had a moment where it was like, you know, after a situation I had some, it makes them to mean I could have had some body touch, let's put it like that and in that moment it was a real defining decision and that's where God showed himself in the first time. Now are you going to go back to ways that you know or do you really believe in hope and in that moment I felt like I made the right decision.
Speaker 1:You know what? We're actually not worth it. It's not even in the slightest of interest. He's fine. He just wants to express his power here and to show to let me which we also let me know that these type of people don't see the power within themselves.
Speaker 2:You were able to find a way to honor the loss of your child by choosing to hold on to the smallest piece of hope that you could find in your darkest moment. I'm going to say it that way and so. And so it doesn't minimize, it doesn't undo any of the things that that miscarriage meant to you and still means to you. What it does show me is that, as you worked through it, in whatever way you work through it and whatever span of time you work through it Number one you allowed yourself to go through a process of reckoning with what that loss means, right? So, even if you felt like you couldn't express yourself and I'm fascinated by what you said earlier in that you felt like in that moment, it was her feelings that were in the front burner and your stuff was in the back burner. And I feel like that is a common experience, because I've had it, chris has had it, and I'm sure many of the other men who talk to on this platform will express something similar, right? However, for me, the first miscarriage that I experienced, I was I confessed to Chris in episode two. I didn't feel like as we, as we finished recording episode two, I said to Chris listen, everything that we just said about you know how men should go, allow themselves to go through this process, the process that you went through. True, I had still not gone through it, and I'm recording an episode where we're talking about the importance of having gone through it. So I am so encouraged to hear that you did go through some process. You didn't just chuck it in the background as, yeah, you know what? My feelings don't matter, my experience doesn't matter, like this has nothing to do with me, it has everything to do with her. You didn't cut yourself short, you didn't shortchange yourself, and you went through this process at a moment where your heart turned to black coal. It was cold, it was dark, because the loss of an ideal man was was taken from you. It felt like as your girlfriend at the time experienced this, this miscarriage, and she didn't tell you about it as she went to the hospital. So the implications of all of that you could have easily sunk further into the lifestyle that you were living, so much so that I don't think you would have been able to even find yourself in the Muck and Meyer that you were in. But while you were there, it seems to me that there was something about you, something in you that allowed you to to grasp onto the smallest piece of hope that this baby, the announcement of, hey, you're going to become a father, gave you from the beginning. And, bro, that, like that is powerful. That, that, that is powerful.
Speaker 2:And I say it that way, not to validate. God has a plan. Listen, like it doesn't matter to me at that moment, bro, at that moment, it doesn't matter. If God's plan includes, you know, killing my baby, then I don't want nothing to do with the plan. I don't want nothing to do with God, I don't want anything to do with anything. Just just leave me alone. If that's what it is, bro, then leave me alone For you.
Speaker 1:And that was and that was the fact. You know, and I touch on that because and real retrospect even when I tried to put my feelings in the background, just something that you know, even as men we really don't really speak on it a lot the feelings that we don't, the things that we're especially, emotions, or the feelings that we don't handle or deal with or even confront, will end up consuming us.
Speaker 1:And when I tried to put in no, because it was like there was no intention to, you know, be in that aspect, but what ended up happening was in that same sense. Whenever I try to put those feelings on the back burner Okay well, it's all about her, this and this, and that there were still some things that was consuming me. Okay Well, why did she not call me and tell me this and that?
Speaker 3:I'm having that. So there's things that I had to even ask myself.
Speaker 1:but yo, hey, I know we're going through this right now, you know, and I don't know way, shape or form and my anything, because I know it's about how you feel. But what? Why you been calling? Why did you feel the need is this and that?
Speaker 1:Yeah she's fast. No, we were going through the argument and I felt, like you know, and there were some harsh realities of how she felt that I had to take in as well, you know, I felt, to be honest, you know we moving, I felt like you care about this baby that hurt like a muck. No, I had to tell her that, like you know, and I didn't say like it hurt because that's a man, you know, very at that time was definitely hard for me to say the word.
Speaker 1:I heard it so crazy. It's so crazy that we you know we do so much as men and things like that but it's certain words that we just trips us.
Speaker 2:Hey, yeah, you and catch me dead. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm hurt. I could, no matter what language you could. Okay, I wouldn't have been able to yeah. So I wasn't able to express that, but I was. I told I was, like you, did wrong for saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're not hot.
Speaker 1:How are you going to be able to make a decision for me? Yeah, you didn't even ask me to talk to you. You don't know how I felt.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You don't know how to do that. If you, all you had to do was ask how you had to do, was talk to me. I had to do it again and she brought another heart to God. If I was able to do that, I would have, would you have listened, would you have hanged what I'm able, and that was another heart to God. You know, like God, you know I built this rapport with this person to where she doesn't even feel safe to express certain things, even in her worst pain, and am I the man you know, say and with that, you know, besides it being black, you're right.
Speaker 1:I really do believe that there's that, that little hope of what I wanted to be for my child that wasn't born. I still held to that, deep down in this dark, dark space, that was my little glimmer of light. Hey, man, I can still be what this man that I was going to be for my child. I want to be the best man for my son. That never. You know what I'm saying, I don't care what it is, I'm still kid. It's still there, it's still that, still that goodness is there that still brings it there. So, but yes, I can totally be honest on the fact that, yeah, I was definitely consumed in those feelings, you know, and still, even when she expressed hers, I still didn't fully express mine.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:I still took it, charged it to the game, took it on the chin, which in turn made things go left. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:So there's so many more things that I want to ask, and if I do, then I won't be able to go pick up my son in time. Oh, so what? What I'm thinking is if you would be, if you'd be down for it, maybe we can get you on for for a second part of follow up and dive a little bit deeper into some things. But, like Chris said, man, I appreciate you sharing your story in the way that you shared it. I appreciate you being honest about what you felt, what you were thinking, what things were like, the difficulties, the difficult realities that you had to to accept and face, and all of that jazz. I mean, that's that's something that I went through. I know that's something that Chris went through.
Speaker 2:It speaks to our experiences as fathers in those moments and Chris says something. I forget in which episode it might have been the first episode, as a matter of fact, that Chris said something that I think is so spot on the moment that you find out you're going to be a father, that you're expecting a child, rather, you are a father whether that child is born or not. Right, so it? That moment is so significant in my life as a man and you just shown a magnifying glass on how significant it has been on your life Because, again, everything that happened could have 100% destroyed. True at that moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But now you have the gift of hindsight where you can look back and realize, bro, I was not in a good place, I was not in a stable place. Maybe I'm not as stable as I am, as I think, as I am now, but you can trace the trajectory of growth, right, you could trace the trajectory of change, of maturation, of all of those things, and it's unfortunate that you went through that experience. It's unfortunate that any of us have gone through that experience, but your story stands as a testimony to how, as men and fathers, allowing for ourselves to go through the processes of grief and self reflection and questioning all sorts of things, ourselves included, just like letting those things grind us in this really painful mill, can truly produce a much more holistic, well rounded person on the other end. Right, and this is, this is who you are now and this is what your, your story has shown, brother. So, yeah, I can't thank you enough, man, for chopping it up, yeah, so thank you so much, man, I appreciate your man so much, thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for again, I was serious, I said it to you guys, I said to you each time a new time man. First of all, keep platforms like this, because this is one huge important, especially for movies like that, that we do not have one there, because I get it in the same aspect, like how we know about the, you know how we're speaking, on how people are saying certain things that will work for the system. In fact, you know you would go up and say this. You wouldn't go up and say that, and I think it just stems from that we don't have they might not know what would, even what to say. Do you know what you think about it in hindsight?
Speaker 1:People, they don't have no idea of the correct way. So we're not like that because there are no platforms or no ways, so we're speaking on the word, like you know what that did make this possible this way. I would, you know, I'm pretty sure if they had known what to say, what to do with those moments, they would have did the best they could, you know. So, um, rightfully, you know, I'm saying we have platforms like this where that opens up, because these are very much the same from the side aspect of losing someone, but even to the point to work or what just now you can make, understand what you make and say or do, and those moments to where it's actually to be there for someone that has been going to do this. So, thank you, guys. Yeah.