The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E14: The Unspoken Agony of Life after Multiple Miscarriages (ft. Miscarriage Mumma Support - part 4)
Welcome to episode 14!
The raw, unfiltered echoes of our journey through the heartaches of miscarriage and the subsequent emotional odyssey of trying to conceive again are what you'll find in today's podcast. Our guest is Sophie from Miscarriage Momma Support, and she openly shares the scars left by multiple losses, reshaping her identity and life's canvas.
Wading through the aftermath of pregnancy loss presents a unique challenge for couples, a challenge that often goes unnoticed, particularly for men. It's a glimpse into the silent burden that partners bear, an unspoken sorrow that demands recognition and empathy from both within the partnership and the wider community.
The episode transcends personal narratives as we scrutinize the impact of language, especially in clinical environments where words have the power to either soothe or sting. Our collective experiences, along with insights from colleagues, highlight the dire need for sensitive communication in the face of such profound loss. By amplifying these stories, we aim to shatter the stigma, foster understanding, and ultimately, pave the way for a more compassionate dialogue around miscarriage and its long-reaching effects on relationships and society.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Follow on IG @themiscarriagedad
Email themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
And I remember people saying to me oh, you're never. You know, if you have a kid you'll be really tired. And I have never felt tiredness like I did when I was trying to conceive, and that feeling of every month you desperately want to be pregnant but at the same time you're so scared to be pregnant that you almost hope that you don't and you just live in this kind of weird place of hope and complete fear. So, yeah, we, after the first loss 100%, I think I probably did become obsessed with just wanting to have a baby at that point. And then, after every loss, I kind of thought this isn't going to happen and we went for private medical care to try and get answers and they just kept saying it's just bad luck, there's nothing we can see or can do to help, and then you just feel like you're like battling everything.
Speaker 3:This is the Miss Carriage Dads podcast, the podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the Miss Carriage Dad podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host, and I am your co-host, chris. And Chris and I are very excited to be joined by two guests. One of them was fully scheduled, the other one decided to make a spontaneous cameo appearance, so the little cough that you're hearing in the background is my son, eden. Last episode, chris, I told you he was turning one and he turned a year old. He we had a good birthday party for him with some friends and family that showed up, and then this past week we were in the hospital with him, because I guess my little guy is a party animal and he partied a little too hard. So that's Eden, but we are more excited to have another guest with us all the way from across the pond, so I'm going to go ahead and ask you to please introduce yourself.
Speaker 1:Okay, so my name is Sophie. I'm not sure that I can do quite a good as introduction, as Eden did, but my name is Sophie, I live in England and I run miscarriage. Member support.
Speaker 3:Sophie and I, chris, we connected on Instagram a while back and once we started having this series of conversations, you and I both agree that it would be important and also would add a lot of value to bring in a woman's perspective, as well as a feminine voice, to the podcast. Right, and I reached out to Sophie and she was gracious enough to give me a couple of dates, and so we're excited to have you here, sophie. Thank you so much for staying up late your time, because what it's? Uh, it's about nine, nine 20. Your time right now. Pm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nine 20 past my bedtime, but yeah, I'm excited to be here, thank you.
Speaker 3:Chris and I have been talking about the topic of trying again after a miscarriage and we've had several conversations where we've highlighted aspects of our experience. Because you are a new guest to the podcast, I'm going to ask you to give us in in summary form, but it doesn't have to be brief, but give us in summary form sort of what your story is and you know, just to kind of lead us into the, the topic of life post a miscarriage.
Speaker 1:So I am a miscarriage member. Basically, following my experience of full losses, we weren't really trying for too long, I guess maybe nine months before I fell pregnant, and naively, obviously we were very excited. We told people close to us and then the day before my husband's birthday I woke up in excruciating pain, heavy bleeding, went to the A&E who kind of said, oh, you might be miscarrying, you might not be, we don't know, so just go home. But then obviously go on Dr Google, don't you, which is not your best friend, yeah. And it just kind of went downhill from there and I felt I feel like now looking back that for me that was kind of the end of who I was and the start of who I am now, and I think my losses after that, the more I had, they kind of just became my norm, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So then I went on to full pregnant again, went to my 12-week scan just after Christmas, but on Christmas eve I'd experienced some bleeding, so I kind of knew what path we were going down. Anyway, went to my 12-week scan where they said that someone would call me and handed me a leaflet on miscarriage and that was kind of it for the next 48 hours and then I went into hospital to have a medically managed miscarriage and then I went on to full pregnant again pretty soon I think that was probably about three months later. And then I was actually in Florida because my in-laws lived in Florida at the time and had another miscarriage and then in the following October I was in Florida again and had another miscarriage then, and then in the UK we've got a policy where you have to have three losses before they do any testing. So I just felt really alone before that and we didn't really have any support or any direction. I didn't really know where to go.
Speaker 1:So, which is where miscarriage mama came from. And yeah, I've just kind of built from there really on with that. But I did go on to have a little girl who's now three, which feels like an absolute miracle. So yeah, that's kind of my story in a nutshell.
Speaker 2:So I'm the I've had. I mean, it's not the same as yours, right, but I've experienced one with my wife. Of course, you know Kelly's story and just hearing you say you know that you've been through so many losses in that way I mean how? Because we're talking about the idea of trying again. I heard you say when you started that you weren't even really trying like that. Did that change after that? Because you have the one miscarriage was there. Were you trying the second time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so this is kind of a topic that I took with people a lot and I think once you've had a loss because I've never had that desire really to die desperately wanted to have kids it was kind of something that I thought would be a nice idea. I quite like the idea of fostering at some point, but I never had that extreme kind of drive to have a child. But the minute I had that loss it was like something completely changed in me and that's all I wanted. So nothing else in my life really mattered. I was just almost obsessed with it and I remember people saying to me oh, you're never.
Speaker 1:You know, if you have a kid you'll be really tired. And I have never felt tiredness like I did when I was trying to conceive and that feeling of every month you desperately want to be pregnant but at the same time you're so scared to be pregnant that you almost hope that you don't and you just live in this kind of weird place of hope and complete fear. So yeah, we, after the first loss, a hundred percent, I I think I probably did become obsessed with just wanting to have a baby at that point and then after every loss I kind of thought this isn't going to happen and we went for private, private medical care to try and get answers and they just kept saying it's just bad luck, there's nothing we can see or can do to help, and then you just feel like you're like battling everything can we, can we talk about that obsessed part?
Speaker 3:can can we spend some time really unpacking that and exploring that?
Speaker 3:because, I, I appreciate you, I appreciate this level of transparency already just saying that and admitting that, because that was so what it felt like for me as well, to the point that you know, chris, like I've said to you before, I started asking myself the question why do I want to have a kid so bad, especially because we had my oldest one already right? So we had my wife and I experienced two losses first, and then we had a successful full term pregnancy and then afterwards we had another two miscarriages. And he was like why are we at both sides of this? Before we even had a successful pregnancy and even after, the question remained why were we? Why was I forget my wife? Why was I so obsessed with wanting, with wanting to have another child? So can we explore that obsession piece a little bit? What is your now that you look back at your story? Yeah, and you and you, you've had this conversation before. Talk me through, talk us through that obsession piece.
Speaker 1:I ended up giving up my business completely because I could not focus my. I got to a really dark place and I remember one summer I was just looking for places to call just to get help, because I was like I, this just isn't normal, all this, all I can think about, and I wasn't really seeing anyone or going out anywhere or doing anything. I was just obsessing about was I going to be pregnant? And then any kind of symptom that I could read into which you know there's hundreds of symptoms isn't there? That could possibly be pregnancy. I'd be like, right, this is it, this is it, I'm okay. Now I feel good. And then you, it wouldn't. It wouldn't be that month or.
Speaker 1:And I remember going to the doctors and just saying I am losing my mind, I'm not doing my business anymore, I don't go anywhere, I don't do anything. And they I mean the doctors weren't particularly great but they just said well, you need to go on the contraceptive pill because that's the only way to stop this obsession, which obviously wasn't an option for me at all because I wanted to have a child. But I got to a really dark place where I that's all I focused on, and I remember my uncle called me and he was just talking about my mental health and I was saying, you know, I can't focus or give energy to anything else in my life. I'd add really, really dark thoughts, and then two weeks later, my uncle actually died by suicide and that for me, I was like, right, I've got to stop obsessing about this, because at the time, I was pregnant actually. So, yeah, sorry, I was pregnant with my rainbow child then, but I was like, well, she's not going to last, it's not going to stick. This pregnancy isn't going to be kind of anything.
Speaker 1:And it was just like it just ruins my mental health, like I can't even explain it. It just ruined everything in my life, I think, because that's all I could focus on. It's funny. You should say you thought about why do I even want a child? Because I remember reading something on Instagram and it said oh, before you try for a child, you should always say why or ask yourself why is it you want a baby? And I was like I don't even know anymore. It's just because now I feel like I'm fighting this battle and I've got a challenge that I want to win ultimately. So, yeah, it was just a lot. I just don't think there's even there's no tiredness like trying to conceive after loss. I don't think like it's so draining.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like, and well, maybe I should ask, does that drainage come from trying again with the knowledge that things could go wrong? Just because one of the things that me and Kelly were kind of exploring was the increase in knowledge of things going wrong as you go further and further and the more miscarriages you have.
Speaker 2:Just because I know, for me a loss was never something that entered my mind. I never thought that my wife could lose another child. I mean, like I said, we've only experienced one, I've only experienced one. But I had my oldest son, chris, first, and then my wife had that miscarriage. So because she had it first and had Chris first, I'm cool. The second one comes, I'm excited. Everything's great, because we never had a new child. Then all of a sudden it's all gone. So in your mind, I mean, is it because you're trying and it's not working? And you're trying and it's not working? If you could walk through that just a little bit for me, that those feelings, because again you're pushing and pushing but, like you're saying, it's pushing you further into this dark place where this is your only focus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I think I was just really naive originally in the fact that it never crossed my mind once about having a loss. And you hear all the time, don't you, the statistics. And after our first on, the doctor said, oh, statistically you'll go on to have a successful pregnancy. And then after the second, it was like, well, statistically it's only gonna be like one in however many.
Speaker 1:And then after the third one it was like, oh, well, statistically, and it like I don't know, it was just, it just didn't cross my mind. And then I just became this statistic that statistically shouldn't be happening. And yeah, it was just. I was just very naive to start. And then after each one I think you don't have the almost luxury of that naivety do, because you know the harsh realities of pregnant and you know what can go wrong. And we had a scan, we saw a heartbeat. So even after every scan then it became the scans are just irrelevant to me at this point, because I had a scan before and it still went wrong. And yeah, it's just really difficult because you are just more exposed to things you don't wanna be exposed to.
Speaker 2:And it sounds like what you're saying too is those signs which would seem like good markers for other people. Like you said, you're completely discarding because you've been to those markers before. And yet you've still ended up in what I wanna call failure.
Speaker 2:You know of course, it's more than what we call failure, just a failure. But wow, it's just so interesting to hear because, like you were saying, with your focus being solely on this thing and losing focus on some of the other things, and I think that's an aspect of this entire thing that I've never even really thought about or explored myself. Now, of course, like I said, I've only experienced one. So in my case, yes, I was focused on it, but after we had our miscarriage, amber became pregnant again, and that one was successful. Now, we haven't tried since, but I could only imagine that if we had tried again and it failed, now again those questions come in your mind.
Speaker 2:Why do I wanna have kids? Why do I wanna try again? But I know deep down inside, if Amber said I wanna try again and we just lost one, I would have said, yes, no problem. But how does it feel opening yourself up again to that, opening yourself up to that possibility of failure, especially after you've been through failure before and failure before? How do you get to that place of saying I've experienced this before, but I'm still gonna try again?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm quite fortunate that my husband's really positive, so his outlook on everything's really positive, and he was just like there's nothing. There's nothing that's causing it, there's no reason that we're not gonna have a child. Yes, it's really hard, but there's not a reason to stop us. But I think if I didn't have his positivity I probably would have not bothered trying again. So no, I don't really know the point that it was like it was just I was just scared all the time, I think, and it was just that dog with a bone kind of attitude of now I just wanna have a baby. So if this is just gonna keep being the way it is, the more losses I had, the more numb I was becoming emotionally. Anyway, but like we've had our little girl now and I've said there's absolutely no way that I wanna try again, ultimately we wanted to have a baby. We've got a child. But I know for a while that I could not mentally put myself in a place to try again.
Speaker 3:What were those conversations with your husband like? If you, whatever you feel comfortable disclosing, take us into those conversations with your husband, because you just said he's a very optimistic person and you are, you're obviously the one experiencing this in a way that Chris and I and your husband will never and have never experienced. So what kind of things were you saying to him? What kind of things where he respond? How was he responding to the things that you were saying to him? Take us into the heartbeat of those conversations.
Speaker 1:He was really keen to continue trying.
Speaker 1:He was always wanted to be a dad. He was very honest about that from early in our relationship. It would be I would be like, no, I'm done, I'm absolutely done, and then the next day obviously your emotions completely changed. So then I'd be like, right, I think I'm ready to try again. It was just to be honest. I think it was just. Every day was different, but he was always very respectful and had I said, no, I'm done, I don't want to try, he would have been completely fine.
Speaker 1:And after the first loss we waited probably six months before trying again or even having conversations about it. So, yeah, varied Cause. Then after the second and third we probably only waited about two months before trying again. And then after the fourth we probably waited about six months. Because that was when I was like, oh, I really don't know if I want to keep going for this. And then luckily we did because we had our little girl. But I don't know if there was really set conversations. I don't think it was just kind of like, right, I kind of it just really depended on my mental health and where I was, which is pretty sad to say actually, because obviously he was experiencing a really tough time as well, like he's obviously lost a baby, he's watching his partner all over the place and kind of not really dealing very well with life and yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty brutal process.
Speaker 3:So here you guys are going through this together, right, and to the point that you just mentioned, he's having to watch you, I mean just in a really bad place in your life, because you want this thing and also because he wants this too. It seems to me from what you said that he's also, he also joined you in this quest to become a father and do you think, unspoken between the two of you, there was this sense of I want to make him a dad and from his part, I want to make her a mom, and sort of that being the driving force that kept you two going until you were able to have your baby girl?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I think he still would say to me because I get really frustrated and say oh, you know, you're not struggling and I'm really, I'm finding this really hard and you're just positive all the time, you're going through life. And we have a joke about it. And we were running peer groups and it became a bit of a standing joke that he so my husband works in IT or technology and he's really not in CDIY, but he built this fence.
Speaker 1:He was like painting the stuff, he was doing loads of different things and I was like how is he just taking up all these like hobbies and doing all this stuff? And then when we spoke about it, he said, oh, you know, one of us has to be up here, so the other one can be down here and we'll swap at different points in life. But my distraction was trying to build a fence or and you know I could take my anger out on if my fence fell down and things like that. So, yeah, it was pretty lucky that he kind of just held us up for a bit, but then was obviously struggling himself, which I didn't see and didn't appreciate at the time.
Speaker 3:When did you see it?
Speaker 1:I think it was probably after our daughter was born and we set up miscarriage mama and we're running the peer groups. I think that's when I sat and I was obviously listening to him talk to other people and I think that was the point. I just thought that he's not even had the space to grieve how he needs and then I kind of was okay with life and I was kind of rebuilding. Then he really had a massive drop then and it was like oh, he's like really not had the space to deal with this.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of times, because it physically happens to women and obviously we are hormones all over the place, I think we kind of take a lot from our partners and people around us, but we really don't sometimes.
Speaker 1:We just need to take a bit of a step back, I think, and realize that you have to work as a team and you both have to have space to grieve in this. And I think before I commented on one of your posts saying about being present and you both need to take that time to be present to kind of think about it and acknowledge how you're feeling as well, as I think there's an expectation on men just to carry on and women are allowed to just sit in this kind of emotional pit for a little bit. And yeah, it's bad to say that there's a lot. We spoke to quite a few couples and we've got quite a few people who we speak to just female-wise and yeah, they were like oh, actually I don't think we even gave our partners a chance to grieve. Yeah, sadly it wasn't until our daughter was born. So yeah, it's a bit of a regret of mine, I think.
Speaker 2:Coming from the male side of this, first of all, it's completely understandable. Like you said, as a woman, you're physically going through this. You've got hormones and all sorts of things that are going on. I remember when my wife had to pass the baby. I mean, the baby didn't make it past three months. So I think she passed it at about four. I didn't know it was gonna be like that.
Speaker 2:So, I was just trying to give her all the support that I could as a man, I should say as a man that is wanting to support his spouse, his wife, because there are those physical things that you go through. It does feel like as like the man, as the husband, you've got to be there to help because you're the one who's going through it right now. But, like you said, I do think it's important, when that is done, to be able to create that space. But the thing is and I try to tell this to myself, looking back on things is I'm trying to do my best to not feel guilty about those times.
Speaker 2:Because, of course I have guilt in everything too, but when you're going through it it's messy, and I think that's one of the reasons why Kelly wanted to start this podcast, especially talking about it for men and everything, but just realizing how messy it is on both sides. I'm sure your husband he might have already said the same, because it sounds like he's pretty awesome.
Speaker 2:So he might have already said this to you, but just allowing the space for grace for yourself. You're always going to regret and you always look back with a little bit of guilt, of course, but just understanding that okay, yeah, you could have done more. But at the same time, he understood, because if he didn't, he wouldn't be with you now or there would be something that you guys would probably be fighting with now. But it sounds like from what you said, he even told you hey, I was just trying to hold you up because my time's gonna come and I'm gonna need you to hold me up.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think that's it's an oddly beautiful thing that can happen, that when these things happen, you know and of course I'm not trying to disparage our single people that might be listening maybe you don't have that significant other, but that bond that is created when you do have someone that's going through with you, whether you're married or not. Having that other person that's going through it with you, that other person that has parented that child or is fathered that child, it's really important. It's really important and, like Kelly said already, I mean I thank you for your transparency in those moments and just being able to share with us those things.
Speaker 3:What is the toll that these losses have had on you from your experience and your perspective as a woman, and what I mean by that is for me. I started asking myself all sorts of questions about the quality of my manhood and masculinity in the times that we couldn't carry any of our four losses to full term.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I'm talking about that. What is the impact, what is the toll, what is the how? Did Sophie look at herself in a mirror during those moments and beat the crap out of herself as a result of those losses?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really good one and I think a lot of people would relate to this but maybe not talk about it. But I think my relationship with my body is, I mean, I've never been particularly confident, but I just felt like my body's failed me and the one thing that we should you know, everyone goes on about how natural pregnancy is and this stuff and the other and I just felt like my body failed me and I think then I lost any interest really in eating, well, exercising, so you almost like it's like self harm, isn't it? You're like punishing yourself because you're like my body doesn't work anyway. So what's the point the more relationship maybe I had with my body now and I'm getting better, I eat a lot better and I, you know, do yoga and try and exercise as much as time allows, but I was just. I just hated everything physical about myself. I was like you just failed me, like you've let me down the one job you're supposed to do, when in reality our bodies work hard all the time.
Speaker 1:And I remember one of the nurses saying your body is doing everything right to keep this pregnancy. I had a baby bump and, like she said, your body is doing everything right. It's just the baby wasn't viable, so just don't punish yourself. But looking back, it's obviously nice that she said that, but at the time I was like no, my body's failing me and yeah, it's really hard. It's a hard place to be when you've got no control over something or anything really to do with your body. Have you? You've got very little control. So, yes, it was really damaging, really damaging.
Speaker 2:And to hear you say that that's something I never thought about. It's funny, because my wife and talking about it, just feeling like, in her words, more like a less of a woman, like that's like your womanly, that's what makes your woman being able to have a child. But here you even say it like that. I've never considered that and that might help someone who has their spouse or their girlfriend, whoever who they're trying to help through this time, something to let them say, hey, that your body did not fail you, because it's, and I can understand how you would get to that place.
Speaker 2:For me and Kelly, as men, these are things in our mind. We talk about the wounds of our mind and we're, as a woman, yes, you have the womb of the mind, but you also have that physical womb, like you said, your physical body, the physical things that your body is supposed to do, and it makes sense, at least from hearing that, as to why you then would have been so focused on being able to have a child, because now that's tied up to success in your entire being, both mentally and physically, and it's almost as if this goal is not achieved then, and I don't mean to be insensitive when I say this but it's almost like what is the point of living, because mentally I want to do the things I want to do but I can't, and physically nothing that I want to do is happening. So it makes sense that you would have gotten to that dark place. But, like I said, just by you saying that just those few words can give someone else something to help their partner with, to say, hey, like you said, the nurse tried to say it to you.
Speaker 2:You know, okay, you weren't. Of course you weren't hearing at the time, and I think for a lot of the guys out there, maybe their spouses or significant others won't hear at the time too. But that doesn't mean it's not important to say you know, just because, hey, you were able to recall that that moment, you know, and then come back, be able to come back to that and say, oh yeah, someone did just say that to me.
Speaker 2:And how much would it mean for those of us who are trying to support to be able to see that there are god like tiril on it?
Speaker 3:So what is, or what are, some of the most ridiculously harmful things that people said to you during the time that you were going through all of these losses, from medical providers to what Eden just said?
Speaker 1:to family and friends.
Speaker 3:That was harsh. That was uncalled for.
Speaker 1:It's kind of easy. It's kind of easy.
Speaker 2:It's a clown there.
Speaker 1:Do you know? I laugh about it now because I just think I just can't get my head around how insensitive people can be. But then I have to just kind of check myself and remember that at one point in my life I didn't understand it either, so I probably would have said very similar things. But yeah, I've had them obviously there. Just go on the pill. If you can't handle a few losses, you're not going to handle a child. Go on the pill. Wait, what I've got that.
Speaker 2:What? That's the wildest thing I've ever. Yes.
Speaker 1:I was like, yeah, and today I've been black. My little girl is so well behaved. We don't really have tantrums and I'm like I can totally handle a kid. It's the losses I can handle.
Speaker 2:Death, what do?
Speaker 3:you mean, if you cannot handle death, you cannot handle life. What?
Speaker 1:I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Sophie, that is just so wild to me.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:That has got to be the wildest thing I've ever heard. That's up there, oh my goodness I'm so sorry, someone said that to you, I think they can probably stop it.
Speaker 1:So we then had, when I went into the hospital to have my second loss medically managed, obviously I was crying because I was upset and the nurse said the longer you sit there sniveling, the longer this is going to take. And then, as they were wheeling me down to knock me out, Hold on, hold on, wait, wait.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Wait a minute. Hold on, wait a minute. A nurse said this to you. Are you kidding me? I know, eat it.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I laugh about it now, but at the time I was like maybe I'm so dramatic because maybe I shouldn't feel like this. It was so. It was just so strange and then another thing another nurse said to me on the same day I'll am talking a quiet voice because, although I went to judge you whether people might, I still by choice. For what? Why are you judging me? I can't even cross my mind why I would be judge.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I listen. I know that you're excited to be on the Miss Carriage Death podcast and you're probably trying to make your mark and you have thought of yeah, well, you're trying to top, not just eating, but you know, and you probably thought about the most ridiculous things that people would ever say to say that these things happen to you. I'm just kidding, you look like Chris. This is like top three.
Speaker 2:Bro, just now just now.
Speaker 1:The way he has. So I work alongside a girl who runs Baby Lost Parents so she does the dad books. I think I sent you the PDF, the letters from dad to dad, and she won't mind me sharing this and we've shared it on her life before. But she went to counseling so she had three stillborns and a Miss Carriage and so she went on the call with the counselor and the counselor said to her right, put your hand on your stomach, what can you feel? And she said, oh well, nothing, really should. That's right, the baby's gone. Now you need to move on.
Speaker 2:And I was like no, oh my God, how is?
Speaker 1:this like this is who we're relying on to support us, and I was like it's just not right.
Speaker 3:A counselor said that I was praying to counselor. Oh my, oh, my stomach just turned, oh, my stomach just turned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think people just aren't that sensitive, I don't know. I think it's just important to talk about it, Maybe to educate a few people on you know what not to say Okay.
Speaker 2:So when Kelly asked this question, I'm expecting things like people might some of them might come up to you and say, oh, don't worry, it'll get better, or you know, or just you know. Someone taps you on the arm. Keep your chin up, kid. You're not what.
Speaker 3:That's not that's not Premier League, bro, that's a. You're talking about like third or fourth division here, Like that's. That's what we're talking about. Like, those comments that I thought were top of the line obviously are bootleg comments. I mean, they are cheap in comparison to standard.
Speaker 1:So people obviously say, oh, just keep trying, you know just keep trying Like it's time to move on, or at least it was early, and they're like I feel like they're just. They're just what people say who don't get it, and in my mind they always say to myself how lucky are they not to get it? Yeah, and then try and just move on, but then I'll just have like this rage and probably send a little bit of a ragey voice note to Sefi of baby lost parents. Yeah, pretty wild people out there. I think especially from medical professionals.
Speaker 2:And I say this with no regret, I stand 10 toes down on this. If someone says that and they are a medical professional, whether they're a counselor or they're working in that area, they need to be fired. Yeah, fired, and I'm so serious. Yes, because a park, a park, a park, a park, a park, a park, a park, a park.
Speaker 2:Because a part of medical care is care, care is not just something you do physically, it's also something you do mentally. So in those spaces people are so mentally fragile and that's not making a mistake, because people can make mistakes. Those are preplanned things that people say that can do so much more damage.
Speaker 3:Like he woke up that morning saying you know what I'm gonna say to somebody? Put your hand on your stomach. What do you feel? Nothing, that's right. The baby ain't there no more, so move on.
Speaker 3:I'm cured, I'm cured, I just cured it for me and you know he had a cup of tea. Notice, I said tea, not coffee, you know. So he had a cup of tea and he felt good about himself driving into work that morning, or even walking into work or riding his bike. He felt good about himself Like, wow, you know what, as a trained professional, as a responsible human being, that's the right thing for me to say to someone, because I would want somebody to say that to one of my loved ones or to me if I was going through something on par with that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, most definitely, most definitely. Yeah, you see that bullet hole. Stick your finger in that. See that your loved one's dead now. So there you go, move on.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I always say Imagine if someone lost their partner and you were like oh, you know, there's plenty more fish in the sea, why don't? You just get on a dating app Like you'll be okay, like you just wouldn't say it. So why would you?
Speaker 3:Like why are you crying for your calendar? Just cleared up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You lost your boyfriend.
Speaker 2:You never make it as a wife. Look, I got a partner.
Speaker 3:You don't have a partner. That is this, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is why I'm so sorry for the outburst. So, yes, that was just wild. I feel like we've, kelly.
Speaker 1:I feel like we've kept a very good decorum, some bad things, but when you say that that is Wow, it's just mad, some wildest things, right we um, with some of the local hospitals and recently we did all help with this project about giving feedback on maternity care, and obviously my feedback isn't necessarily the most positive. And then one of the things I said was you know, you, it's easy to earn your money when you've got a positive outcome, but you really earn your money when it's a negative outcome. And, um, my point is always just, language is free, just if you're having a tough day, likely all doing fine, but just remember you will not have an toughest day as the person you're treating. It's free to just be nice.
Speaker 3:Hold on, say that again in English for the people here in the U S and also the people in the UK.
Speaker 3:All right, because I've said the same thing. Sophie, I don't care what kind of day you're having If you're having a bad day, and before you walk into that consultation room to talk to me, to talk to you, before you even open your mouth to say some stupid stuff like what that consular said or what any of the other ones that you mentioned earlier, take some time. Breathe FaceTime your dog, go cut her a cat. Go out for a walk, take a smoke, pour yourself a glass of wine, chow down to some whiskey, take a nap, tickle yourself. Throw some cold water on your face, go get something to eat. Go watch some funny YouTube video. Go watch a soccer game I don't care what you got to do. Listen to a lullaby, I don't care what you got to do. Throw yourself before you walk into that room, before you open your mouth and you say some stupid stuff like that to people, because you're absolutely right. Words are free. Words are also powerful tools that can shape the outcome of someone's life, for good or for harm.
Speaker 3:And what people say. You know there's that saying. I can't think of who it originated from, but the quote goes people won't remember what you said. People will remember, oh, what you do. People will remember how you made them feel. And words, I mean, are a powerful vehicle that inspire and instigate feelings and I can't imagine anybody coming out of any of those spaces having those things said to them, feeling like empowered or healed or restored in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was saying in the hospital that the language used around my losses it was always all your anxious. You know it's because you're anxious. I mean, I'm not, I don't think I'm a particularly anxious person. They told me I was depressed too. I think I was depressed, not really. I think I was probably traumatized and I needed to know how to get from A to B. I was in a bumper car just trying to do whatever I could to get to B. But I said, you know, through my losses, my language use was so negative that it made me, by my fourth loss, I didn't even bother asking for medical help because I felt like I was just wasting their time all the time.
Speaker 1:But then my so-called anxiety when I was having my daughter was used as a positive that they were like oh, you know, because you're anxious, we'll do this for you or that for you. The minute I had her it was what are you anxious about now? And I've had a womb infection after I had it and the first thing the doctor said to me was well, what are you anxious about now? You know, you've got your baby, what is it now? And I was like well, I'm not very well, which we now have established. I'm not very well, but don't worry, don't apologize, it's totally fine.
Speaker 1:And then I don't know about you, but after I'd had my little girl, I was just convinced she was going to at some point not be there anymore anyway. So I would go out with the dogs or I think if I'm not there, it's not my fault. If she passes away or anything happens, it can't be my fault because I'm not there. And she had a tumor in her neck. So I was like back to Dr Google who obviously tells you that your baby's going to die. But again it was. You're just an anxious parent because you've had losses. You're just so anxious. And then it's in actually had this tumor that she needed physio and help with. And I was like this just used as such a weapon against you at times. But it's just based around language. It's not even anything scientific. It's just how people speak to you, so strange.
Speaker 2:So I'm a pastor and you know, of course, as a Christian, we believe God created the world and we believe God created the world using words, speaking things, and I don't think people understand how that relates to us in terms of the things we say and how, when we speak, we create worlds and people's minds. We create reality for people based on the words that we say. I can start describing an apple how red and beautiful it is, with the one little stem, with a little green leaf coming up the side and a little worm pops out and smiles at you. I just created an entire world in your mind with my words and I don't think that people understand that when someone's going through a traumatic moment, the words that you say can either create that a world of hope or a world of despair.
Speaker 2:Yeah a world of not necessarily being feeling carefree, but a world of feeling safe or a world of feeling anxious and to know that people are in those spaces where they're meeting you at your moment of trauma and creating a world of anxiousness, and then and then having the audacity to blame you for your anxiousness, that is malpractice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I like anime. I'm watching a lot of it recently. Don't judge me, sophie. I'm judging you differently. You can't judge me like that. It's not fair. I'm looking at you differently.
Speaker 1:I'll be honest.
Speaker 2:So there's this one anime called my Hero Academia and in this anime it's just about these heroes who are going to school to learn how to be heroes and they're going through, they're trying to get their hero license. So they're going through this test. And this one test is there's like a disaster area they call disaster training, and they have to go out and save all these people. So of course it's a training. So the people that they have that are acting like they're hurt. They're actors. The main character, deku. He finds this one guy and as soon as he comes up, there's like a rock, you know, like laying on him or whatever, like that, and the guy's pretending he's in pain and he's saying like, oh, my head hurts and this and that, and the first thing that comes out of his mouth is, oh, no, this is bad. So the guy says wait, what? So? What do you mean? This is bad. He says hold on a second.
Speaker 2:You do realize that this is the worst day I've ever had in my life. Right, like this entire thing has happened. I probably just left my house not thinking anything bad was going to happen, and now entire building has fallen on me, my head is hurting, I'm bleeding everywhere, and the best thing that you can do when you come up to me and say, oh, this is bad. And then he was like, no, you lost five points. So you know, of course it was this funny moment, but it's a moment that even for me, has stuck with me Because, you know, as a pastor like I'm, I just had to go to the hospital just the other day, you know. But that moment plays in my mind and it makes me want to be more aware of the situation, because I'm walking in. It was a person who had a heart attack, unfortunately, and you know, the family is there, the wife is sitting in the room. So now in my mind, I'm playing. Okay, don't walk in here and say something dumb, you know, because they're having the worst day of their life.
Speaker 2:She is sitting here, her husband is in all these tubes. Don't walk in here and say, oh, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know or don't, walk in here and say, oh well, it could be worse. No, Be smart about what you're going to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, be as encouraging as possible, without saying something silly, you know, but the cognizance of going into a space, being able to say the right thing and to know again that there are people out there that don't even take the time to think about what it is that they're going to do.
Speaker 2:And I don't know we've talked about it before, kelly I don't know if this is because they go through it every day or something like that, so they get so desensitized to it they just don't care anymore. Maybe these are barriers that they place up for themselves, but my goodness, I just wish that there was some kind of training for doctors and I mean counselors are supposed to have this training, so I have no idea what that was about but at least doctors and nurses that they go through to be able to have that sensitivity training. Because, like you said, there was no reason for you to feel. I mean, of course you're going to feel anxious already, but they should be diffusing that anxiousness. Yeah, when you have your child and especially if I'm looking at your medical books, knowing your history, I should be doing my best to celebrate with you and acknowledging as to why you would be anxious, of course, even after your child is here you know, yeah, I think that's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:they do see worse, but in your world that's the worst thing that's happening to you. So that is a massively important thing. So I always try to rationalize and think, you know, they do see a lot, and if they took on everyone's sadness, like where would they be kind of being live and it's difficult. But my thing is just you choose your career, don't you? And I think being in medicine and being in counseling, you have to have a level of self-awareness and empathy that goes beyond putting different situations into your own mental hierarchy where you're going to go up when I've seen worse. So you know, come on like, get on with it, like you're good. So now it's tricky. I've not been in the situation.
Speaker 1:Obviously I've not been a counselor or I don't work in medicine, but I just think it's a basic level of human decency, just to use nice language. And you know, especially after my losses, I've been so much more self-aware and you know, I think about what's coming out of my mouth a little bit more than maybe I would have. Whether that's age or because of my experiences, I don't know or both. But yeah, I just I can't wrap my head around it. I'm just saying, you know, it's like it's free, just be nice, like I don't, just don't say anything if you've got nothing positive. So just I don't think I can deal with this. Could somebody else have a look, or I don't know.
Speaker 2:I feel like the same thing can be said if you're a friend of someone who has gone through a miscarriage, or as the spouse or family member or whoever if this hasn't, isn't something that you've been through before and you see someone going through it and you don't know what to say. Sometimes the best thing to say is you know what? I don't even know what to say. I'll just sit here with you Best thing to do sometimes.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad that we spent this amount of time on this question and this issue and this particular vein of this topic, because it is it is true that the level of trauma that someone experiences as a result of a miscarriage on a personal level, and then you brought in that to the communal level between that person and their partner especially if it's a supportive partner, regardless of the status of that relationship right, and then you brought in that out even more to the rest of the community. So family members if they were known, or if they had known about this expected pregnancy and so far and so forth there's all of these layers of people who are experiencing the impact of this devastating event. How much more, then, does it complicate the environment when other community members begin to say things that are just not helpful? It's just not.
Speaker 3:It's just not. And what I attribute to being the biggest factor in why this happens consistently is I don't think there's anyone who has experienced a miscarriage that doesn't have at least one thing said to them that was eyebrow raising, right. So what I think is contributing to that is how little this topic is openly spoken about, the level of stigma surrounding this miscarriage event, what it means for you as a woman, what I think it means to me as a man, what even you know for me in particular. I know what it means to me, but there are certain men who are like, maybe it means something to me to not even have, and we've often come back to this point, chris and I. It's not until I started posting stuff on Instagram, when I started the miscarriage dad Instagram page, that I find out that my good friend and co-host, chris, and his wife experienced a miscarriage also.
Speaker 3:So there are people close in our communities, in our circles, close to us, who have gone through this and we don't ever know about it.
Speaker 3:There are families who never even know that their parent or a sibling or relative have ever experienced baby loss, and it might be a history, like a significant part of a family's history, that there's been multiple events of baby losses and all of its iterations.
Speaker 3:So just the silence around it, the fear of opening up and talking about it, the level of shame that gets ascribed to people who've experienced loss to miscarriage unjustly and unfairly. So All of that just contributes and continues to feed into this, this, this notion of people just opening their mouth and saying all sorts of stupid things, and apparently it seems that it doesn't even matter if you have some level of higher education, because that just permeates through and through, regardless of where you fall in the social ladder. So I appreciate the work that you are doing with the miscarriage mama support. This is the reason why the miscarriage dad's platform and podcast exists also Is to begin to peel back some of those layers and to push back against that. You know negativity around talking about this openly in order to hopefully change the narrative, the perspective of people who know somebody else who experienced loss to miscarriage. So I can't thank you enough for your time and for your transparency and for your story, for blowing our minds with some of the ridiculous things that that people say to you.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't know what else to say after that? Those were so creative. Those people like writers for those.
Speaker 1:I think it's hard, isn't it? Because it's people associate grief to not necessarily a tangible thing, but a physical being. As far as you are the ones that kind of have that feeling in the physical sense. So I think people don't attribute, maybe, grief to miscarriage and loss in that way. So it's almost a bit like, like you said, there's like that shame or people just aren't talking about it, but then as soon as you kind of open up conversations, there's just loads of people around you that actually have experienced similar, but just nobody talks about it. It's good that you guys definitely are obviously talking, especially from a Daz perspective, because I've listened to a few of your podcasts and like the insights and stuff I get from that is so valuable because it would have been things that I just had never thought about before.
Speaker 1:So yeah thanks for the work you guys are doing and the talking and being open, Because I know, for men particularly, it's a bit stereotypical maybe to say that, but I think as a society men typically don't necessarily open up as much and I think it's so important, so important.
Speaker 3:Thank you for number one, letting us know that you listen to our podcast.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool.
Speaker 2:I find you guys so funny.
Speaker 1:That's pretty cool, I was like a proper fan girl, like what's going on.
Speaker 3:And uh well, thank you. Thank you very much. We do want to respect your time. I always have this feeling, when we have a guest on the show, that this is not going to be the last time that we have you on to to talk about things, because I know, chris, there are many questions that you want to ask. There are also many questions that I want to ask, particularly that last thing that you just said, sophie, about how people ascribe grief to more tangible things. I think that is spot on.
Speaker 2:So that's amazing. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 3:So consider this a consider this a cliffhanger for a second conversation that we want to have with you. So stay tuned to our listeners for when that is going to come back up. It might be sooner rather than later, but we'll work it out. We just want to say, once again, thank you for your time, thank you for the work that you're doing. Give yourself as much time as you need to let people know where to find you, how to find you and all of that stuff. So go ahead, free self promo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we are. You can obviously find us on Instagram, facebook I've just started actually doing a series on TikTok of ridiculous things people say have said during my last journey but you can get all the information on what we do at the online sessions that we've run at wwwmiscarriagememberscom, and we also have CarePaks, which I can send out the booklets and things in PDF. So you guys, if you want to kind of use those resources, but, yeah, wwwmiscarriagememberscom and we do lots of really cool online sessions as well, so you can join us from anywhere.
Speaker 2:Thank you you, sophie, for coming on, for the work that you're doing. It has been a pleasure talking to you. I can't wait to talk to you again, but thank you for being so open and transparent and just spending some time with us and helping us see things differently as well. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you and thanks for showing me it's all good and eating, obviously, and I stayed awake.
Speaker 2:I'm a real ass out there. You stayed awake, you did it, you did it.
Speaker 3:Have a good night, sleep well. And to all of our listeners, thank you for listening to this conversation and remember that you are definitely not alone in this incredible, painful and transformative journey of grief and life after miscarriage. Until next time.
