The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E 17: When Grief Becomes a Catalyst for Parental Health Advocacy (ft. Aaliyah's Mom-Liz O'Donnell)
Welcome to episode 17!
Our latest episode welcomes Liz, a courageous mother, who recounts the heartrending story of her daughter Aaliyah's stillbirth. Through her raw vulnerability, we tackle the complex layers of grief and the importance of nurturing conversations about pregnancy loss, particularly for fathers. Liz's poignant narrative confronts the myths surrounding the 'safe zone' of pregnancy and exposes the dire state of maternal healthcare practices in the United States.
The journey through loss is fraught with challenges that test the very fabric of our being. This conversation is a call to arms for more sensitive workplace policies and societal understanding, paving the way for legislative reform that honors the depth of parental bereavement. Together, we highlight the necessity of compassionate communication and the power of advocacy in healing wounds that are often unseen but deeply felt.
In the throes of sorrow, there lies a resilience that binds us and propels us forward. In sharing the evolution of the nonprofit, Aaliyah in Action, we cast a light on the transformative power of channeling grief into purposeful action. The episode is a testimony to the strength found in solidarity and the creation of legacies that keep our children's memories alive. For anyone navigating the tumultuous waters of loss, this dialogue offers a beacon of hope and a reminder that even in the darkest moments, we are not alone.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
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the words that were in those emails. Sometimes I still look at them. I don't know why. I should really stop doing that, but it lights a fire in me. A policy is a policy, but we make a choice to use the words that we do in these sensitive situations and to make me feel, you know, my motherhood invalidated and that my child wasn't even really a baby, was just you know, I mean a week after. And so, from the mental health perspective, dangerous words can be very dangerous.
Speaker 3:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host, and once again, chris is not able to be with us for this recording because he had prior engagements. But I'm so happy to be joined by another guest, another female guest. I am going to now ask our guest to please introduce herself.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone. Kelly, thank you so much for having me on today. I'm very happy to be here and share the story of my daughter, aaliyah. Aaliyah was born still on December 1st 2020. I'm her mom, liz, but I prefer to go by Aaliyah's mom, liz, but I prefer to go by Aaliyah's mom. And since her stillbirth, I mean, it has just been an absolutely wild journey from intense grief and then trying to take that grief and do something positive with it. You know, yeah, liz.
Speaker 3:So this is a little different than what we're accustomed to talking about here on the platform, because the platform is specifically geared to the experience of miscarriage. Nonetheless, I think there is so much that we will discover together and there is so much that relates in both of the experiences and, first and foremost, as a person who became a dad in 2020 also, I am just devastated that you went through that experience in a time where our world and our country was in such turmoil. So, if we can travel back to that time period, talk to me about how the pregnancy was going. Did you have any sense that anything that ended up unfolding would be was even a possibility? So walk me through your pregnancy. And how did we get to Aaliyah being a stillborn baby?
Speaker 1:Well, I think the first words out of my mouth, hearing the midwife tell me, you know, we can't find a heartbeat, there is no heartbeat. The fact that my first words were stillbirth still happens. Like what do you mean? Everything has been fine Tells you so much about my pregnancy, right? Like I never in a million years would have thought that after that 20 week scan, or even before then, because everything had been going so textbook you I never would have believed someone telling me that this is a possibility to experience stillbirth, this is a possibility to experience it after having such a low risk and healthy pregnancy. I mean there was no way I ever would have thought that.
Speaker 1:And so you know, hearing those words and being so naive, even just you know thinking to when the first nurse was trying to find a heartbeat, couldn't get anything and said, oh, I'm just going to go get a different machine. Even for a split second, I was like, does that mean something's wrong? No, there can't be anything wrong because everything has been fine. I mean it caught me off guard, to say the very least, and that's very alarming and something that everybody needs to think about while they are pregnant. I mean you can be having a really great pregnancy and I don't say that to scare anybody. I know that can be tough, but the reality is there's no safe zone in pregnancy. We always have to be advocating for ourselves and checking in with ourselves to make sure our baby is healthy. You know we can't just trust what people tell us, that you're safe. After a certain mark it's simply not good information anymore.
Speaker 3:You know, I've been fascinated by this 20 week marker and it's come up in conversations that I've had with people individually. It's come up with conversations that I've heard on another podcast that I listened to, and whenever I get a chance to talk about that podcast because it's so incredible it's called the Still Parents Podcast, based out in the UK, and those men, those fathers, are doing amazing work and they're the inspiration for the Miscarriage Dads Podcast. But they you know people who have spoken on their show have spoken about this 20 week marker and the 20 week marker is right. You, at that point, you have the anatomy scan and, if you're able to get to that point, the general consensus is that once you pass that 20 weeks, it should be smooth sailing from there on out and that is an expectation that is set.
Speaker 2:So I'm wondering from your perspective, now that you've gone through this experience.
Speaker 3:You actually went through the, you got there and beyond. Yeah Right. So how have you been able to think back on that expectation that was set, and what do you think should be done differently, if anything, about specifically mentioning or highlighting that 20 week marker as some sort of you know green pass that everything is going to be okay?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on that. So, first of all, I do not feel the United States has maternal health or puts maternal health in the focus that it should be. We should be seen multiple times past 20 weeks.
Speaker 1:A lot can happen between 20 weeks and for me, right in between 31, 32 weeks, a lot can happen. In that time I get very frustrated knowing that other countries have different protocols in place, have lowered you know again, for me this is stillbirth have lowered their stillbirth numbers because of their increased doctor visits that people have. I think back to our 20-week scan and you know we were with midwives at our hospital and because Aaliyah was quite long, they had to have an OB come in who kind of joked around and said you know, we're both very tall her father and I and athletic, so we figured she would, you know, not be a tiny baby. And she was not a tiny baby. What they didn't do because it's not practiced in the US was then consider okay, well, is the placenta going to be able to sustain Aaliyah's growth? And instead of making a joke about our child being tall and larger, he should have been making sure that the placenta could sustain her. And in fact it could not, which is why she died. It had nothing to do with her, it had to do with the placenta and the fact that it was small and simply could not sustain her growth.
Speaker 1:And so you know, we go to these appointments and it's just oh yeah, she's big, she's fine. You won't be able to have your natural, unmedicated birth. Most likely you'll have to do a C-section. You know we're joking and laughing, but really something could have been done to make sure. Okay, if she is measuring larger, perhaps we should be looking at some other potential risk factors here. Again, not to scare, just to make sure that we're being safe. And so I think there's just a lot of oh. As long as baby is there and the heart is beating, then we're good to go. And that is just it's not fair to parents because, as you said, then we're good to go, and that is just it's not fair to parents because, as you said, then we have this, you know, expectation that everything will be fine, and we're just going to patiently wait, and it's doing such a disservice to families.
Speaker 3:Let's talk a little bit about the numbers, the number of stillbirths that occur in this country. What are some things that could be done to minimize those numbers in comparison to some of our international counterparts? So I know you have all of that data available, so let's talk about some of that data a little bit.
Speaker 1:So right now there's over 20,000 stillbirths annually in the United States. We know that roughly 80% of all pregnancy loss is happening in the first trimester. So 80% of loss is happening in the first trimester. But then we're also having 20,000 plus stillbirths a year, 20 plus 20,000 plus stillbirths a year. Our international peers, the UK, australia they have strengthened their prenatal care systems and lowered their rates of preventable stillbirth.
Speaker 1:Not every stillbirth is preventable For me. Had we known, for example, placenta size, perhaps a plan could have been made. I'm not going to say it could have saved Aaliyah's life, because we don't know, but maybe it would have. These are little things that we can do, little things that other countries are doing, and it's the people at the top that are not making the changes needed to have safer birthing experiences for all people, and then especially for women of color. So you know it's a lot of going back and forth and blaming this system and that system, but the root of it is we can be taking care of, of birthing people better than we are.
Speaker 1:The science is out there. Other countries are using the science. Why aren't we? And it's okay for the United States to say we need to work on this. Perhaps we should start utilizing models that are being used in other countries. So one really big effort is the Stillbirth Prevention Act, which would allow Title V funding for stillbirth prevention efforts, and this particular effort would be for the Count the Kicks app, which is a fetal monitoring app that helps you to bond with your baby, and I didn't know that that app existed. And I didn't know that that app existed. If I did, and if I was tracking movement, maybe I would have known that, because originally it was actually moving way too much.
Speaker 1:But I didn't know that there was anything wrong with that because I was fine. So perhaps if everyone in this country knew about that app, we would see a reduction in stillbirth. We would see a reduction in stillbirth. There's also the Shine for Autumn Act as well, which is being led by Debbie Hain, who is a mother in New Jersey. Her daughter, autumn, was stillborn and she, with her Shine for Autumn Act, is just advocating for more research.
Speaker 1:There's barely any stillbirth and miscarriage research here in the united states. We can do better, but we have to hire doctors that are focused on this. We have to start with the medical schools and get them interested in this. Um, there there are a lot of little things that can be done that will save pregnancies and then in turn also save families and and help with, you know, the the mental health component of it all. Um, so that's all the stuff that I do. And then you know paid leave efforts, but that varies so greatly by state so that that's a tough one. Um, but I hope to see in the future a federal paid family leave law and I will be very mouthy on on, you know, pregnancy loss being included in that in some form for all pregnancy loss, not just for stillbirth. There needs to be protected leave for loss of any gestation because it is a, it is a process to have to go through that and that needs to be recognized.
Speaker 3:In terms of Aaliyah and that pregnancy. Did you have a prior pregnancy? Was this your first pregnancy?
Speaker 1:First and as of right now. Only, it's scary, you know, and so, and it's scary, you know, and so, and that's a you know. I had nothing to compare this to you know, and I thought I did all my homework. He was on every blog, reading the books, following all the Instagrams, and that still wasn't enough. That's very frustrating still wasn't enough.
Speaker 3:It's very frustrating. What I think is a common ground between what you've shared so far and my experience in terms of the times when my wife and I experienced our miscarriages are those words can't find a heartbeat, and that was true for one of our one of the miscarriages that we experienced. My wife had gone to an appointment maybe a week or a week and a half prior to the time when I went back with her to verify that everything was going well. And when she went and there was a heartbeat and she took a video of the monitor and she sent me a video small like five second video of the monitor and there is this little blob with a heartbeat and it looked like it had fins, where arms were going to grow, I think. And I said to her wow, that's Nemo, and so in my mind that was Nemo. To her wow, that's Nemo, and so in my mind that was Nemo.
Speaker 1:And when we went back the following week, we hear those words, we can't find a heartbeat. Yeah, how have those words changed your life? Oh man, they have definitely changed my life. I mean, as soon as you know. As I said, my first response was I think I was like, are you sure? Because again, I was just so confused. You know, knowing that right after you hear those words, your life will never look the same. It will never be the same. And it doesn't matter when you hear those words At one point in your pregnancy, it does not matter, life will never be the same after hearing it.
Speaker 1:And in those moments and this goes for a loss at any time there's a very uncomfortable time period that you are going to need to experience and for me, I just kept telling myself just move through it, just move through it and you can figure out everything else later, but just move through this. I still say that to myself today. It's like three and a half years later and I still, every day, I'm saying just move through this, just move through this. So after hearing those words, the, the um, just constant focus on, on trying to get to the other side is always at the forefront of my mind, knowing that, you know, after hearing those words. There is really no other side. You're just constantly trying to move through and, just quite honestly, make it through just quite honestly make it through.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we've been. Chris and I have been in the middle of a series where we're exploring how people's religious convictions, outlook on spirituality and all of that, how church communities and what have you come alongside people who are experiencing grief, in particular, as it relates to pregnancy loss, infant loss, and one of the things that we've made very clear is that the language that people use in an attempt to support folks has to be carefully examined and we can't just like I can't come to Liz and just say something like God needed another angel, liz.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've heard that many times.
Speaker 3:OK, so let's, let's talk about that for a bit. Yeah, what were some of the things that you were told in relation to Aaliyah's death? From the perspective of people who were trying to be of comfort to you and also using what I'm calling God talk?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is, I mean it came at me. I feel like from all angles, I will say my immediate friends and family. I think everybody A plus everybody was very good. But you know some other people, or my employer for sure I had a baby right. I mean even if you're experiencing a miscarriage there was a baby there.
Speaker 3:You had a baby.
Speaker 1:Nobody should ever make you feel like you did not, or that it is so easy to just replace said baby that you had Nobody and it's very complicated and I'm sure that you had Nobody and you know it's very complicated and I'm sure that you know you and your wife can relate to when you think about possibly wanting to get pregnant again. This is not to replace. It's a completely different pregnancy and I have not been pregnant again post-loss. But part of my personal challenge in all honesty is I will never love. But part of my personal challenge in all honesty is I will never love. I feel like I will never love another baby the way I love Aaliyah. And that for people that do use that type of language in terms of saying you can get pregnant again, at least you know you can get pregnant. God needed an angel. Nothing will ever replace, nobody will ever replace Aaliyah.
Speaker 1:The thought of getting pregnant again is not going to replace Aaliyah. The action of it is not. And so I I really want people to realize that we are talking about a life. It doesn't matter what gestation that life was. We were talking about a life and parents had plans for that baby and people need to be very, very mindful of that. I am not a religious person and most of my friends and family, you know, know that about me and or not that religious themselves, and so I never had to too many um comments that comments that were religion-based, which I'm very grateful for. I am quite spiritual and I feel as though Aaliyah's spirit does live on with me, and in the work that I've done since she has left us.
Speaker 1:So those are where my beliefs are, but language matters and we love the babies that we've lost and I expect the people that love me to validate that.
Speaker 3:What was one of the most disturbing things that somebody said to you? What toll did that take on you? What?
Speaker 1:impact did it do to you? It? It led me to being on this podcast with you. I know that my employer revoking my family leave because I couldn't provide a birth certificate for my daughter and I'm only caring for myself. So no baby, no leave. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, which led me down a path of advocacy. And now I'm here Wait wait wait, wait, wait, wait. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You're joking.
Speaker 1:I wish I was a first grade teacher in Washington DC, where I have been living for a very long time now. That is exactly what happened.
Speaker 3:Because you couldn't produce a birth certificate, because your baby, who was fine and suddenly was not, was born still Mm-hmm. Yeah, your employer revoked.
Speaker 1:You said yes, yeah, canceled, immediately canceled my pre-approved leave. And the words that were in those emails. Sometimes I still look at them. I don't know why. I should really stop doing that, but it lights a fire in me and it did light a fire in me in. I mean, this was only a week or two after Aaliyah had died as well. Um, the language that was used towards me in terms of invalidating the fact that I did deliver a four pound child has, I think about it all the time, all the time Um, and that person didn't need to use those words a policy. I've since gotten the policy changed, but at the time, a policy is a policy. But we make a choice to use the words that we do in these sensitive situations and to make me feel, you know, my motherhood invalidated and that my child wasn't even really a baby, was just, you know, I mean a week after, and so, from the mental health perspective, dangerous words can be very dangerous.
Speaker 3:I am tempted to ask you what those words were. And if it's too, if it's too much, please do not share.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it was. It was basically just. You know, if you don't have a birth certificate, you know, oh well, no baby, no, leave. You don't have a baby to care for You're. You're only caring for yourself, so you don't get this. Um, yeah, yeah. Oh, and I tried to explain this situation. I thought perhaps he is just not understanding. And there was never any words of you know um, no condolences, it was just you know, no baby, no leave. Oh, my God. It was basically the wording that was used.
Speaker 3:Even with all the context that was provided.
Speaker 1:Even with my midwives reaching out trying to explain the situation, even with proper documentation.
Speaker 1:And yeah, just you know, I mean that right there it just felt like the mother, my only sense of motherhood, was just completely ripped out from under me. I mean there was no way I could go back to work. You know, not only had I just delivered a baby, but I had surgery after and hemorrhage, so I was at a high risk for bleeding. Your body doesn't know that there is no baby to feed, so physically my body is acting as though Aaliyah is here, and so I tried to explain those things to this random man that I didn't know over email, because I wanted everything in writing and it's a good thing I did that. But yeah, there was no nope. It was like, well too bad, so sad. You can use your sick leave. Have a great day.
Speaker 3:And, yeah, I have this sinking, just this sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach right now as I'm listening to you say those things. So here, here is what I think can transfer over to the experience, to my experience as a male who has dealt with baby loss at whatever point of the gestation, the gestational period. Oh man, that I'm just hold on. I just, I just need a second to just process a lot Right, I know? That's just so. That's disgusting on that guy's part.
Speaker 3:That's just so. That's disgusting on that guy's part and also it is, and I'm glad that you got the policy changed in your area. I think it's very emblematic of the larger reason why you're doing the work that you're doing and the larger reason why I'm doing what I'm doing, absolutely. So here's what I think can transfer over From the perspective of a miscarriage and also a man whose partner experiences a miscarriage. I am several degrees removed from the experience and on a societal level, if something like this can happen to you from an employer and you are the carrier of the child and you are like without you that life would not have been harnessed right. So if something like that can happen to you, how much more disadvantage does the male have and more of an uphill battle he has to climb in order, for instance, for an employer to acknowledge, validate and provide resources for him to grieve. So I can only imagine and this was not part of my experience, so let me give you a little background information I work at a children's hospital in my area as a spiritual care provider. So this is my world, not just professionally but also obviously with I have personal interest in in supporting people who've experienced devastating loss when I first became a dad in 2020, my employer a pediatric hospital my employer, a pediatric hospital did not have a parental leave policy for fathers. It did not offer paternity leave. So I had to use my personal time that I had saved up so that I can spend time with my son. And in last year, when my son, when my second son was born, they finally offered a package for fathers, which was like, oh all right, cool, at least you, you have something.
Speaker 3:So my experience was that after my wife and I went through our miscarriages, I went right back to work. Now there was a one time where I went to work and I just could not be in that setting and I said to my supervisor at the time listen, I can't be here, I have to go home. My wife is home by herself. This is too much for me to be here, I need to go home. So I have a little bit of that experience in my tool belt. But for the person who's, for the man who's experienced loss and every pregnancy means something differently. Right, yeah, right, yeah. For him then to go to his employer and say, hey, my wife and I, or my girlfriend and I, my partner and I, we've experienced this miscarriage. I'm really not in a mental space right now. I'm not so sure that many employers would even acknowledge that, because presently we have uh bereavement policies, but they're like three days.
Speaker 1:Yes, they are, they absolutely are. Um, oof, yeah, so. So, after everything had happened, I went public with my story and it caught the attention of the DC council and they enacted an emergency bereavement bill, retroactive to the day that I delivered Aaliyah. That gives parents who experienced stillbirth or the loss of a child under the age of 21, two weeks of leave as opposed to three. That was a blessing, truly, most just, as you said, states employers, all of that. It's three days.
Speaker 1:And again this goes back to just validating parenthood If you have a living child or not, father's parenthood or perspective on parenthood all that is not viewed the same as the mother's, and it needs to be. In cases like this, you needed to grieve as well, but then of course, it's oh, men don't really need to grieve, or they grieve differently, but they can still work. We need to oof. We got work to do. We need to stop that.
Speaker 1:I mean, mental health is so important. I think we have seen plenty of instances. Mental health is so important. I think we have seen plenty of instances where mental health support would have benefited people in this country, and this is one of those elements where it's not too hard to be empathetic. It's not too hard If I can teach. I taught first graders how to be empathetic for years. If I can do that, then adults and employers should be able to extend empathy to the people that are making them money and you know, showing up to work every day. It shouldn't be that hard to show community and show empathy. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So here's the other thing that I think can transfer over from what you've shared so far and this is going back a little bit to the whole question that I asked about. You know some of the things that were said to you using God talk and stuff. So let's just broaden the scope so much more, because those things the religious aspect, flavor of it, is one thing, but at the, at the base of it, just like fundamental basis of it, like you said, words are so influential and you do have the choice over which words you use and how you use those words. There's a person who, who I listened to, and he says words don't mean anything. People mean something and the words that you use convey the thing that you and I mean. Right? So the to have your experience invalidated in such a way because you couldn't produce a piece of paper, is one. You birth an actual human being who was fully formed, yeah, and it just turned out that she died. But you had the physical. You had a physical baby, yeah, the guy who's grieving a miscarriage. I'd never saw any of the babies or the fetuses that were miscarried. I never saw them. I imagine what life would have been with them. Of course Little Nemo. Little Nemo was supposed to be a girl and to this day.
Speaker 3:I was watching Creed 3 the other day with my wife and at the end of the movie, you know, michael B Jordan is in the ring with his daughter and they're shadowboxing and they're having a good time.
Speaker 3:The music, it's the concluding scene and I'm sitting next to my wife on the couch and she looks over at me and she's like babe, are you crying?
Speaker 3:And I was like I am crying, because every time I watch something like that and I see a father and a daughter, it reminds me, it's a constant reminder, that that could have been me, that could have been me and Nemo, and I am constantly grieving and regrieving the fact that I will never be a father to a daughter because that dream is just lost, just lost.
Speaker 3:So all of my sense of pain and grief and sadness has to do with something that, as it existed, it was imaginary, if you will. It was theoretical, it was never concrete in the way that Aaliyah is concrete or was concrete to you. And then to have now someone come and invalidate that sense of loss from the Mel's perspective, like that transfers over from what you shared to the experiences that men go through in relationship to a miscarriage, you know, and we just have. Like we inhabit this culture where if you don't Well, I was going to say if you don't have concrete evidence, then it doesn't matter, but I guess it also doesn't even matter if you have concrete evidence, like so we are just so horrible at acknowledging grief.
Speaker 1:That's it I was. I was just talking to someone about that. I mean, I think a lot of it comes from fear, where people are just scared to speak openly about the topic and scared to maybe even show emotion with it if it gets to them, and that is something. It does not make you any less strong. I consider myself a very strong woman. Me crying about my daughter or being passionate to the point of tears does not take away any of that strength. It should not take away any of that strength for any human being to do it.
Speaker 1:And yet for some reason, we are still just constantly going up against. Can't show too much emotion, can't make anybody uncomfortable, but we need to be uncomfortable in talking about miscarriage and the mental health effects from. You know, experiencing a miscarriage, either as as the birthing person or partner, um, and all forms of perinatal and even into neonatal loss, um it again. You know, we were just saying it shouldn't be that hard and it really doesn't have to be. We just have to be open to it and let other people know that they're in safe spaces, to show that empathy and that compassion and maybe shed a tear or two. Creating safe communities to be able to do that I hope will change the landscape of it.
Speaker 3:Let's go back to something that you just had to find a way to move through the circumstances and move through what you were feeling, move through the grief. Yeah.
Speaker 3:What were some things that you did that helped you move through your grief? Because I can't listen, I can't even imagine what that would be like and I don't even know, for as much as I'm immersed in this space professionally and by interest. I don't even know if I would know Liz, what to do if that were my experience. So what did you do? How did Liz move through her grief after Aaliyah was born?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think one thing that really helped me was I even think I did it while I was still in the hospital I ran to Instagram to see if this had happened to anybody else and I immediately saw, oh my gosh, it has happened to a lot of people. And I found some people that I saw were still living I don't mean literally still living after their loss and I thought, okay, I got to figure out how to get to that point. You know, I knew that leaving my job and not working for people that disrespected me would be the first big step. And that was my scariest step walking away from teaching, which was the only thing I knew. It's what my degree was in, it's been the only job I ever had. So that was a big, scary step, but I needed that for my grief journey.
Speaker 1:And then, with that, I thought, okay, I need to find an outlet to talk about Aaliyah whenever I want to. Um, it breaks my heart to see and to hear how often parents, you know, go years without hearing their child's name by a loved one or a friend, or go years without talking about their experience. I knew that that would be very detrimental to my health if I didn't talk about this and then, in the same vein, I said you know, now that I know so many people are also experiencing this, I have to do something. That's like the teacher in me. I have to do something to help. I have to try to fix the problem, and while I can't fix a lot of the systemic issues we have in our prenatal care system, what I can do is be there for parents that are forced to walk this journey, like my family, like yours, and so I created a nonprofit called Aaliyah in Action and we support families that experience any type of perinatal or neonatal loss with care packages, and they're not meant to make anyone feel better, they're really just meant to let you know you are not alone. There is a community here.
Speaker 1:With the package, we also have support books, and I wanted that to extend beyond just mom or the birthing person. So we have support book for dad, we have support book, children's book for living siblings, because in the hospital I saw how Aaliyah's father was just kind of ignored or not spoken to about things unless it was, you know, medical decisions for me and I felt, even in the hospital, I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, why isn't anyone checking in on him. The man slept for like 24 hours straight while I was in the hospital. I was like someone check on him. Cause that is not that you know, that's not normal.
Speaker 1:And while I understand that the focus is usually on mom, it's very important that we recognize partner grief, and so, with Aaliyah in action, it was important for me to add something in for fathers as well thing in for fathers as well, you know.
Speaker 3:I am so thankful that you said that, because it's not until I experienced my second or third miscarriage that I realized that, even in my own practice, when I showed up to a grieving family at my place of work, that I was gravitating more towards the mother than I was to the father. And it makes sense.
Speaker 3:It makes sense, but it was so horrifying. It was so horrifying and what really? What really opened my eyes to it? Liz was one of the DENCs that I accompanied my wife to. We walked into a small room. The doctor walks into that small room and just as you're looking at me now, chocolate-covered man sitting in front of a white wall. There's no way this guy could have missed me. Number one and number two, it was a tiny room and this man walked in, completely ignored my existence, spoke only to my wife, got her consent, got up, walked out. I was not even there. My wife noticed it and we talked about it on the drive home and I was like I, I wasn't even there for this man. So then I take that experience and I go to work and I remember the next time I got called into a situation for a grieving family who had lost a child, I walked in and the first person I saw was dad and that stood out to me and I was like whoa, I had been doing this this whole time. So you know, it's unfortunate that I had to go through that experience to come to that awareness, but I am so much better because of it, and so I really appreciate you sharing that.
Speaker 3:Even in the care packages, you've been mindful to include the partner of the birthing person, because, again, it's that degree of separation, because again, it's that degree of separation For obvious reasons. When you gave birth to Aaliyah, of course you needed to be the focal point of attention and also Aaliyah did not get there because Liz's own body produced Exactly. Yeah, you know, aaliyah's father is involved in the picture in some way somehow. So one of the strongest things that I, or strongest points that I try to make in this podcast and also when I'm speaking to dads, is that don't minimize especially when I'm speaking to dads don't minimize the father's experience, because we're not the carriers of the baby.
Speaker 3:It just so happens that our anatomy does not allow us to carry children. Yeah, and I don't think there is any man who would be like I want to carry a child. So it is, you know, it is what it is. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean that just because I'm not the carrier of the child, that my grief is minimized in some way, shape or form or is less important or should be thrown to the back burner. It doesn't mean any of that. It just means that the way that I'm relating to this devastating event is different, and so, while you're paying attention to my partner, who is the carrier of the baby and who obviously has an experience that I, as a male, will have no, I have no knowledge of, and I'm not even going to try to attempt to recreate, or to none I also have a level of investment in this devastating grief that we're both experiencing. So thank you so much for for sharing.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, it was important, and you know there are books and resources out there, and so, all on the resource card that we have in each package, I included, you know, the weekly support group. There's a nonprofit that does a weekly support group for dads. It was important for me to include that because, you know, I don't see you know I'll just use Liz as an example I don't see him Googling options for support, right, and so my idea was I'm just going to you, don't have to Google it here, it is for for partners, um, you don't have to go looking for it for yourself. Having having to Google that stuff is not easy, and so I try to just, you know, create something that includes the whole family and support that is given to you by Aliyah in action. You know I pulled together what the best options are out there that I have found, so that you don't have to look for them yourself.
Speaker 3:What is the significance of people saying Aaliyah's?
Speaker 1:name. Well, I think it's a beautiful name, so I love to hear it all the time. And when people say Aaliyah's name now, it's because this organization that we have created has been able to support them in some way or support a loved one. And until we figure out how to reduce the number of miscarriages and stillbirths that we have in the United States, this is going to be needed. And so, if, if my daughter, if the legacy I'm trying to create for my child is able to support you during those, those rough days which I have been through and I still sometimes have myself then that you know, given my circumstances, that is me being a good parent. Um, if, if you know Aaliyah's name, um, it's for reasons that I wish it was for any other reason, but if you know her name, I hope that her spirit has been able to support you.
Speaker 3:I think that's one of the things that I want to be mindful and thoughtful about what I'm going to say. You don't want this to happen. Right. While you were pregnant with Aaliyah, you never sat there and said you know what? I hope for the worst thing to happen, so that something beautiful can come out of it. Like that. That doesn't happen.
Speaker 3:Everyone who is trying to become a parent. We all have the same hope. We just want to be parents to a child who is healthy and alive, so that we can live our lives ever after, and there should be no, no guilt or no shame about feeling that in any way, shape or form. That's just. That's just what we want, of course. Nevertheless, like you said, still births still happen. Like you said, stillbirths still happen, and I had no idea that miscarriages were even a thing until we had our first miscarriage.
Speaker 3:And now look at us, I have a podcast that is talking about this issue. You have changed policies, you have an organization Right. So all of this positive stuff has come out of what I'm sure has been the most and what will be the most difficult period of your life and mine. So if you could, if you could talk to someone who is in the belly of the beast how worst period of their lives, to give them that perspective, that encouragement, um, that something beautiful can come out of a situation that is so devastating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, I think very first thing is to take it one day at a time and not rush yourself through the grief or try to convince yourself that you're going to get over it. I think it's very easy for us to try to convince ourselves and I think that that could be do a lot more harm than good. And, in that same vein, don't let anyone else tell you how to grieve. It's so personal and it's so complex. And because I was able to grieve exactly how I wanted to and how I needed to, it opened the door for further things down the road, because I was ready for that, because I had given myself the time to begin healing. I will always be healing, and so for me, healing was taking the step into, you know, creating an organization.
Speaker 1:That is not everyone's healing process. You need to kind of reflect on you know what are some ways, that or what are some visions that you had for your child, and then how can you kind of take those visions and now remake them into the circumstances? You know, for me, with Aaliyah in action, I envisioned Aaliyah always shopping, being at the spa, doing stuff like that. So, because that's how I am, so you know, incorporating those elements into the package was important to me because that was a reflection of who I thought Aaliyah would be, and so I feel like, as parents, if we just kind of think about that and it doesn't even have to be anything crazy it could be something that you just do in your home to regularly honor your child. But you're never going to be able to figure out what those things are if you don't take it one day at a time.
Speaker 1:Give yourself breaks. I always say, especially in those early days. There would be times when I just wanted to go out and feel normal and act like nothing happened, and while my friends and family may have thought was she okay? I think that was really healthy for me to do. I needed to do that, and so don't stifle yourself if you want to go do something or if you feel like laughing. All these little things are going to help you get to a point where you can decide how do you want to honor your child for the rest of your time here, and it can be literally any way. But in order to get there, you have to take care of you first. That's number one.
Speaker 3:I am so thankful that our paths crossed. Yes, because the work that you're doing is very inspiring. It's inspiring. I just love the way that you have taken somethingosed it and allowed your grief to dictate this. I mean all of these things that you've been doing, not just the care packages but the advocacy work, constantly wanting to talk about Aaliyah and just breaking the stigma that so encloses this conversation and this issue and just blowing the lid off of it and saying, screw it, I'm going to talk about it because so much good can come out of it. So I am man. I can't tell you how inspired I am by you and just this small time that we've spent in conversation and this is the first time that I'm meeting you- so that's, just incredible.
Speaker 3:That's just incredible. Just keep doing the work that you're doing. Again, I'm so sorry that you know you have that experience. So sorry that you know you've you have that experience and, on the other hand, I am just so moved by how much this experience has shaped you and produced this version of you. I would have loved to see the previous version of you in comparison to now. I can only imagine that it's like a major, major, major upgrade.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was not. I was definitely not this talkative or open about anything prior to this. This, yeah, this has changed me in ways that I never, never saw coming.
Speaker 3:And you know and I think that that's worth saying too, because someone could hear what I just said and be like oh man, he's insulting her, it's not an, it's not an insult. Oh no, we become such different people because of the perspective that we gain as a result of the loss that we've experienced.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's exactly it.
Speaker 3:Sorry, I have an angry driver outside. Oh no, that's exactly it. Sorry, I have an angry driver outside.
Speaker 1:Oh no, that's never good. I always have that here in DC, but no, I mean, I will never be the same. You know, I always say it's post Aaliyah Liz and pre Aaliyah Liz and there are some similarities and it's been very important for me to try to keep and bring some of that go-getter. You know, jersey girl energy, um. But there, you know, I have changed so much too, but I've tried to keep just a little bit of the old Liz, cause if I lost her I would not be talking to you right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and and no, it's. It's so beneficial. I think it. I think it's good for people to give themselves over to the grieving process. Yes.
Speaker 3:It is dark, it can be daunting, it is uncomfortable. It is all of the above and some yeah. And yet I think the resisting of that can produce so much harm to the person's psyche, to just it looks. I truly believe that the person who emerges out of that grief process, out of that darkness, that cave, that whole, whatever imagery you want to add to it, I think the person that emerges out of that can and will at some point look back and be like I am such a much better person for having given myself over to the grief as opposed to resisting it. So that's what I meant by when I said an upgraded version of who you are.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, I completely agree and you know that's why I shared. You know, if I had to give advice to someone, that is just really, you know, in the thick of it, it's exactly that it's. You have to just accept it and move, move through it the best you can, and you know it's an ebb and flow every day, as you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So tell people as we come to an end. Tell people how they can find your organization, how they can get involved and what ways can people get involved and maybe even share. Do you have any future plans for the organization, Like, what's the next level you're trying to take it to?
Speaker 1:So you can find us at aliyahinactionorg and that's A-A-L-I-Y-A-H, and then at aliyahinaction on Instagram, and we do ship the care packages to anyone in the country that requests one. So you just send me an email. We have books, you know, for all different stages of loss as well, so it will really be specific for you. We're nearing 2,000 packages distributed. So you know we are growing and we want to grow in more hospitals. So you know, if you want to get involved and your hospital wants to join in, let me know.
Speaker 1:I am a one woman show, so you'll always hear from me and I try to answer. I try to have zero inbox at all times. So, yeah, I mean, we are, we are growing and you know, again, I'm not happy about the need for this growth, but until we figure it out, this is, this is what's needed. Um, and then I did forget to mention that on the opposite side of things, on the prevention side, I am a director at push pregnancy, where we're working toward ending preventable stillbirth, and so if you are a family, that and this is for any loss if you are pregnant after a loss, we have a lot of resources. It's pushpregnancyorg and while we are started by stillbirth parents. Our information is applicable to all families because we want you to have a healthy pregnancy that does not end like ours. So we have tons of resources. That's pushpregnancyorg at pushpregnancy on Instagram for whether you're pregnant after loss or if you're just, you know, first time pregnant. It's all empowering resources to help you and your family make it home safely.
Speaker 3:Liz, once again, thank you so much for the time that we spent in conversation. This was this was great. I really enjoyed meeting you. I really enjoyed talking about the thing that you are so passionate about, and it's such a difficult thing to say. I wish Aaliyah were here, because she would have known how incredible of a mom she has.
Speaker 1:I hope she does know.
Speaker 3:I hope that she's looking down at me.
Speaker 1:I don't know looking somewhere. I hope she knows because I always say it's hard work, it keeps me up at night, costs me a lot of money, stresses me out. It keeps me up at night, costs me a lot of money, stresses me out. Also, you know, brings me joy, just like if she was here, all those same things would be happening. So I hope that she can, wherever she is, sense it and feel it. Yeah, Amen to that.
Speaker 2:Yes, we'll see you next time. Thank you, thank you you.
