The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E26: A Nightmare Realized: The Surprise of Pregnancy & The Devastation of Miscarriage (ft. Elspeth Edmonds)
Welcome to episode 26!
Miscarriage, pregnancy anxiety, and baby loss—topics often shrouded in silence and stigma. What happens when your lifelong dream of motherhood is met with the harsh reality of a miscarriage? Elspeth, an actress from London, joins me to share her deeply personal journey through these challenges. From societal pressures to the psychological toll that comes with health uncertainties, we navigate the emotional landscape that many women endure.
The early stages of pregnancy are a whirlwind of joy and trepidation. Elspeth shares her story of anticipation, the significance of the 12-week milestone, and the anxiety that accompanies every bodily change in a period of wait. We touch on the gut-wrenching moments when ultrasound expectations clash with harsh realities, painting a raw picture of what so many expectant parents face.
Heartbreak is profound, especially when it involves the loss of a child. We open up about the importance of validating one's feelings and the necessity of open communication during such critical times. From naming our lost child to acknowledging the complex nature of emotional and practical support from loved ones, this episode aims to normalize conversations around miscarriage and baby loss. Through our collective stories, we hope to offer solace and a sense of community to those walking a similar path.
Thank you for tuning in to find solace, gain understanding, and embark on your healing journey with us!
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Instagram: @themiscarriagedad
Email: themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
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Of course I understand the male psychological need to be the protector and the strong I need to be strong for them. But it's OK to not be brave as well and, depending on circumstance, you were just as excited and you had just as much input and as much riding on it as she did. So, emotionally, you don't have to be brave, you don't have to be strong, and even letting her see and feel that is almost just as valid as you keeping that it's okay to be just as broken and to share that. If you are just as broken, share it.
Speaker 3:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Thank you for joining this episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host, and I am joined by a wonderful guest who's going to introduce herself very soon, and I can say that, for both me and her, we have been looking forward to having this conversation, to having this meetup, and so, without further ado, we're just going to get right into it. So please introduce yourself.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Elspeth. I'm an actress who lives in the outskirts of London, about 35, and found Miscarriage Dad on Instagram when I was looking for support. And now here I am am hopefully able to help others. I've known from a young age. I always wanted to be a mum. It was a non-negotiable as far as relationships went. I love babies, children, and I've always wanted to carry my own child too. I used to have nightmares about not being able to get pregnant.
Speaker 3:Can you describe if you remember one of those nightmares or sort of a theme of things, Because that's a very visceral reaction to this desire.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I can only say it's got to be coming from a big family, fewer couple marriages. My dad's had eight, eight children. So I'm one of eight through my dad and I've got half siblings, but through my mum I'm one of four girls and my mum was a childminder as well. So even with her own four children, she was looking after children through a itty bitty toddler types to up until 11, 10, 11, 12 year. So my house was always full of children, and then on top of that, my brother, brothers and sisters having children of their own. So I've just always been surrounded by them and I just knew that's. That was what joy was having a big family and having lots of children.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, it was round about one of my teens when I started to think oh, what if I can't? I don't know. It was round about one of my teens when I started to think, oh, what if I can't? I don't, I don't know where it came from, I don't know what for where that sort of fear comes from, but it just I remember thinking oh, what if? What if I can't have my own?
Speaker 1:I don't remember anything specific about a nightmare, but I just remember that sadness like my. My dreams always seem like a bit like a movie sequence. It could be my act, my actor's eye coming out, but they always seem to run like a movie and I'm the lead character. But I would, you know, it would be the pregnancy test coming out negative or just not, just never having it, having an empty nest, having an empty home and and always being sad, having sadness about it, but nothing really clear anymore now it's just, it's more like a day, daytime worry. Now, especially when I got to my 20s, it was more of a living, a living nightmare, rather than a sleeping one and then you discover that you have this health condition so I was in my mid-20s.
Speaker 1:Um, I don't know how different it is in the US in your health system, but for us, when we turn I think it's 21, you're encouraged to go and have smear tests done, or I think there are pap smears in the US going on. Yeah, that's it, and we have to have those done. I think it's every three years. We're told to have them done unless obviously something comes up and then you're encouraged to go again.
Speaker 1:You have follow-up visits, um, and I think it was around my mid-20s there was uh, anomalous results which they couldn't quite pin down, which led to scans and blood tests and things. And from a it was uh, from a ultrasound. A gynecologist said that I had all the indications of polycystic ovary syndrome, um, including other things like mild acne and and sort of weight issues and things, but it was only off of an ultrasound um, but it actually turns out now, after having gone through everything, um, in the last couple months they don't do it off an ultrasound anymore and they do actually further hormonal tests and an ultrasound tech, after looking at my ovary, said actually she didn't think that was the case. So I've actually been given more of an all clear, but for the last 10 years, with wanting to get pregnant being very much something I wanted, there was this possible diagnosis from a gynecologist saying I probably did have it. That would mean the longer I waited, the harder it would be.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's interesting. So then, in that time frame, how much pressure then did that add on you, knowing that you've always wanted to be a mom and then now finding out that there's this possibility that it may not happen. So time is basically against you well it was.
Speaker 1:there's this. There's middle-aged man turned to me and said how old are you? 26? Oh yeah, if you don't have children, if you're not trying in the next five years, it it's just going to get harder and harder. And I'm 26. I've only just left drama school and I've only just moved to London with my boyfriend and I'm like, oh, that's a really nice conversation. I get to go home and have Thanks, that's really nice. And actually in the end it led to my boyfriend turning to me and saying I don't want kids.
Speaker 3:What was that? Hit like then again to this desire that has been with you since a very early age.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was hard. It was, you know when, when you're in your like, when you're young and you're in university, college, you know you don't. You think, you don't really think about it. I just knew it was always what I wanted and he'd made an offhand. You know, I don't know if I want them and that's not like a red flag at the time, because you're only in your 20s and you think, oh, not knowing isn't a no.
Speaker 1:But then it wasn't until any essential health issue that could make it a problem raised all those flags and he said I don't want to be that person that keeps you selfishly because I love you, but then doesn't give you what you want, and I don't want you to then stay with me and then not get what you want. So it was actually a very selfless thing. It was hard and horrible and perilous, but you know, we didn't stop loving each other, but we don't want the same things. We didn't stop loving each other but we don't want the same things. So it was either he would give me children but then not be happy because he did it for me but didn't want them, and or I didn't have them and I always blamed him for not getting the children I wanted.
Speaker 1:So it was pretty horrible, pretty heartbreaking. But in the end, you know, even now we're still friends, we still, we still chat every now and again. So it's not there was no love lost, it was just sad really. Um, but then, being in my mid-20s and then on the dating scene, how early is it too early to say do you want children? Is the first date too soon? It's the second date too soon? Like, when do you broach that really key topic?
Speaker 3:Well, when did you? I think it probably was just on the profile.
Speaker 1:I think it was just very clearly on my online profile I want children. If I could have bold, highlighted and underscored it I probably would have, but I think it was fair to say most of the initial dating wasn't exactly positive experiences anyway. But yeah, it was pretty much on the profile want children? I think even on that particular dating profile it was something that you could like tick to say and it would come up. You know, are you looking for something serious? Do you want children? I think it was there. So at least at that point I was being pretty upfront.
Speaker 1:Tom and I had discussed starting a family and wanted to start in the later half of this year, but the universe had other plans. I'd had an irregular cycle in January and then nothing through February, so we weren't sure what was going on with my body. March 3rd I took a test and surprise, tom wants to be a young dad. So he was like I want to be able to play football with my kids and take them to the pub and not be an old man when I do it. I was like OK, okay, I totally respect that he's five years younger than me, so you'd think that's quite a big age gap. But he's, he's like I want. He just said he always wanted kids as well, so that was easy straight off anyway.
Speaker 1:But he was like, yeah, I want to be a young dad. I don't want to be, you know, losing my hair and grey when I'm going to there. Like, ok, so I'll be grey when my children are at that age, but he won't be in his eyes. So, yeah, you want it. So it was sort of around late last year he said do you think maybe next year you want to give it a go? See what happened. And in his head, we would start now, we would be starting to try now. It just like I said, the universe had other options and um, got risky one evening and surprise after the risky business, there is this moment of surprise when you discover that you are pregnant.
Speaker 1:I'm normally pretty regular and in January I had a very regular out of the blue, 10 days early cycle, which was confusing, but I was like, okay, we'll see what the next one does. But then there wasn't a next one and I didn't know if. Then, you know, you try and do calendar maths and you can't figure out what's going on and I have an app that wasn't quite figuring out either and Tom is also on that app so he can also see my cycle. It gives him a warning if I'm gonna have a bad week. He can, you know, go right.
Speaker 3:Need to remember to be well behaved this week that's actually a pro tip for people who are listening and they can definitely make use of those apps. I mean, I'm sure there's a high success rate.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know why it wasn't thought of sooner. I don't know why boys aren't taught this in school. Like this is like we get taught about our cycles. Why are you guys not taught about it? Because you should get like a calendar and go right. This week. This is when you're bringing flowers, you're bringing chocolates, you're cooking for her. This week is the week that you're going to have a good time. This is the week you can put all your moves on. This week. Don't even look in her direction. She will eat you.
Speaker 3:She will eat you, spit you out and then kill you and she will eat you.
Speaker 1:She will eat you, spit you out and then kill you. Yeah, so this is. I think these are like the life lessons that you guys should be learning in in school early on. So he was looking at this app and it was saying I was late and I'm looking at this app. I'm like, well, yeah, but it doesn't make any sense. It seems really soon.
Speaker 1:And I went away for um, I had a costume fitting in cardiff and I went away and saw a friend and I said I don't know if it's too soon, I don't know if I should take a test, should I? So I took one, without him knowing, and it came back with a very tiny faint line. I thought that's not really, that might not mean anything, I'll wait. And then it was just I think it was a Sunday Tom and I had finally had a weekend together where we weren't working in any way Sunday morning, and I, tom and I, had finally had a weekend together where we weren't working in any way, sunday morning. And I thought, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this test now, because they say the morning is when you should take it. And I just went into the bathroom, took the test and it came up instantly. There wasn't waiting three to six minutes, it was there straight away. I even recorded the react. I even recorded it, I don't know why, for posterity. I think I recorded it. But I was just staring at it like, oh, that's really happening. That's why it's not. That explains all. That explains everything.
Speaker 1:Now, and yeah, I just went into the bedroom and I just held it up and he was like what do you mean? I was like what do you think? I mean you've got me out. I've been late for three weeks. What do you think this means? And there was like you know, it was really joyful and he went, but it's off, but we're like, we're like five months too soon. And I was like that's your fault, it was your time schedule. You decided to get risky with it. This is on you. This is what Shrug. Like what do you want from me? Literally was Honest. It was. It was without, without I mean without going into like loads of detail it was twice in one night and the first time we were technically safe and the second time you thought, oh, it's the second time and you know it's probably not going to be anything anyway what did you learn about yourself and those initial moments as you begin to anticipate this process to unfold in any way?
Speaker 1:Well, other than I'm an anxious person on a daily basis, like most people ask me if I'm doing okay, because my face just registers terror all the time, because I'm always anxious. But I took it really seriously. You know, I there's a pharmacist just underneath my flat. Monday morning I went down there and I bought folic acid. I was already taking vitamin D. I was downloading recipes because I'm not a vegetables person Okay, Not a big fan of the green vegetables so I was downloading smoothies like smoothie recipes to get as much of all the good things I'm downloading smoothies like smoothie recipes to get as much of all the good things I'm supposed to be eating into my diet.
Speaker 1:We're talking within 48 hours. I was, I had all the things. I was taking all the notes. I was, and obviously it was right. We have to wait until 12 weeks. We can't tell anybody, can't tell the soul, um, but I was also meant to be an alien in Doctor who in like a fortnight, which meant being plastered in paint and maybe doing wire work, and I was like I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to tell somebody because that's a health and safety concern, and you know, and I just started a new job, so I ended up taking everything really seriously. Obviously there was all the joy and all the excitement. Obviously there was all the joy and all the excitement. But also because of all that joy and excitement, I was like I'm going to do everything to make this perfect and healthy and it's going to be amazing.
Speaker 3:Prior to your experience? Did you know of anyone else's experience that made you say you know what? Let's not tell anyone, in case that happens, like had you ever been exposed to the possibility of a miscarriage in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 1:My, my sister had had one. She told me she I remember so vividly this is my nephew's six now. I think she called me to say she was pregnant and I remember so clearly that she always said she was never going to be a natural mom, she would always adopt. She thought pregnancy was not for her. So when she called me to say she was pregnant, I remember going, oh my God, wait, are we excited? I remember like getting excited and going, wait, are we? Is this exciting? Do we happy about this? And she was like no, no, yeah, this is exciting, I am happy. Because I I said, but I thought you didn't want to carry naturally. I thought you always wanted to adopt. And she was like no, I had a miscarriage and I was so heartbroken that I knew that I really wanted it oh, wow but that was like I said, that was like five years ago.
Speaker 1:So I knew it was a possibility and I knew why the 12-week thing was a thing, because you that's why you don't tell everybody you know we don't want to tell everybody because you know that 12 week is the goalpost. So with Tom, that's what he said. He said we don't tell anyone. And I said, well, I've got to tell someone, otherwise I'm going to go crazy. And so I told my closest friends, especially the girl that I said do I take this test or not? I told her, and when I was being an alien, my other close friend was essentially the assistant director on that job, so she was controlling all the aliens. And so I told her because I was like you need to know that this is obviously a thing, but it's so very early, it's not like I can't fit my costume, it's, it's literally just. And so then these are two very close friends that I've known for a while. It was just. It was just like this rule you't tell anyone. So that's what we followed the rule that you don't tell anybody. I decided to tell my mum.
Speaker 1:The weekend before my scan I bought a I'm going to be a big sister scarf for my cat, set up my camera and sent my mum in to find her. She knows how much I want to be a mum and she was of course delighted I told her about my scan and that I would keep her updated. Tom had told his mum he's rubbish at keeping secrets but she's also a midwife so he thought the extra support would be appreciated. They tell you every little sensation in your body is normal Little cramps, bubbly feelings, twinges, all normal. They tell you discharge is normal. I was feeling a little nauseous but I thought I was getting away without real morning sickness.
Speaker 3:This whole thing is a learning process because obviously this is the first time that you're pregnant.
Speaker 1:Nothing was really concerning until that 12th week and then the 10 days between the two scans. There wasn't anything you know, it was every.
Speaker 1:Honestly, it feels like every nerve in your body is suddenly really heightened, so like every twinge, every, every bubbly feeling, every cramp, everything you're like what is? What is going on? This thing's no bigger than a lentil. What, what could it possibly be doing? Um, but my first antenatal appointment they said you're going to feel all these things, it's normal. You'reatal appointment they said you're gonna feel all these things, it's normal. You're gonna see things, you're gonna have discharge, that's normal. And they just keep saying it's normal not to worry, not to panic, if you see.
Speaker 1:They said if you see anything red, if you start spotting and seeing red, call the early pregnancy unit. So I didn't see that. I saw. I saw a bit of pink and they said pink's nothing to worry about. Pink is normal because blood vessels are changing, things are growing, that's normal. And then they said a bit of brown is also normal because things are changing, it's normal. So you just carry on. So I didn't see the. I thought that's fine, I'm okay, got to get to 12 weeks. So I was just, that's all that mattered. I okay, gotta get to 12 weeks.
Speaker 3:So I was just that's all that mattered. I had to get to 12 weeks in hindsight. Describe your relationship now to the word normal.
Speaker 1:I will forever be suspicious of the word normal. I'm gonna. I think um, and I've heard this from people who've had miscarriages and then gone on to have healthy, lovely babies. The joy is gone because they're so anxious. Off to the hospital for my scan and you can just tell when there's something not right. The ultrasound technician was quiet. The screen in front of me was clearly not showing a baby shaped image. I just knew it wasn't good. She told me that what she was seeing wasn't a 12-week baby, but more like a six-week baby. So there wouldn't be a heartbeat quite yet. Come back in 10 days. There should be one by then.
Speaker 3:So here you are, and you are on your way to the tent or the 12-week scan. Take me into that room.
Speaker 1:They tell you to go with a full bladder. I don't know if that's the same with you. Guys Go with a full bladder, not too full, but comfortable. So I arrive 10 minutes before the appointment, as per instructions, and I'm comfortable, I'm fine. But the appointment, as classically with waiting times, is like 35 minutes late. So by the time I get in there, I'm uncomfortable because I'm really uncomfortable now and she's got the wand on my belly and she's just rotating it around constantly. And right in front of me on the wall is the screen and I'm looking at it and looking at her, looking around and pressing buttons on her machine and I'm like there's nothing. There's nothing there. I'm pretty sure if there was something there it would have come up instantly. And the fact that she's just pressing against my already very full bladder and not saying anything, it was.
Speaker 1:I was just waiting for her to say or take that inhale of breath, where you know bad news is coming, and she goes well, your bladder is very full, which is distorting the image. And being slightly defensive, I said well, it wasn't full 40 minutes ago, or it wasn't this full 40 minutes ago. So would you mind going to the bathroom and coming back and we'll see if we can get a better picture. Ok, so I have to go outside, back into the waiting room with all these very pregnant women, use the bathroom, come back and she's there again and she's still pressing and obviously doesn't seem to see anything. So she goes. Well, I'm gonna have to do an internal ultrasound instead and maybe I'll get a better picture. So she goes in and you just about. She said well, that's the pregnancy sack. So the sack is there and what I think I can see is only six weeks in size. I just about made out what she was looking at and there was this tiny little bean shape. She said well, that's only a six week size. So by this point I'm pretty upset because it's not the happy joyful. There's your head, there's your feet, you know heartbeat noises. It's nothing like that. It's nothing what you go in excited to get. Oh, are we going to get pictures? You know all of that sort of stuff. It's six weeks and she goes and I don't, I can't, and obviously she's trying to make you feel better. She said I can't say whether this is just because the dating's wrong or because of something else. So if you haven't said any of that, you would have been fine. But now you said it could be something else. So tom and I left and we both turned to each other and said that makes sense. We always thought the dates were wrong anyway, because in our initial initial appointment she said it was eight weeks along and if we went by at what we thought was the date of conception we were like, well, that is really far along. So we thought, thought that makes sense. Six weeks makes sense, that's fine. Six weeks is fine, but we have to go back in 10 days because in 10 days it'll have grown enough for there to be a heartbeat. So now I have to wait 10 days.
Speaker 1:Tom's mum was visiting for the weekend and we met her for dinner. We told her what happened and she said nothing to worry about. Same thing happened to me when I was pregnant with Tom's little brother the voice of experience. It helped take my anxiety away for about a day, you know. She came back to the house and I had all of my blood tests on my phone, because it comes through um, um. I sort of like an app when I get notifications. And she went do you have like any of your results? And I showed them to her and she went oh yeah, everything seems great. You know this midwife years of experience said it's going to be fine. If you need anything, if you want me to, you know, if you have any worries, if you're really anxious, if something's happening, just call me, just just text me and I'll speak to you and tell my mum, my mum, who's already really excited.
Speaker 1:You know how did the scan go? Actually, mum, I have to go back in 10 days because it wasn't what they said it was going to be. I was also not working that week either. I didn't even have work to keep me busy, so I was just sort of sat at home with my thoughts. And that was when the discharge started to change. The brown discharge was there a lot more.
Speaker 1:And then I googled, which I sort of regret doing, but again, they weren't all doom and gloom stories. It was obviously lots of nervous women, but it wasn't all. Oh no, that's normal, that's fine. I had that with my first, I had that with my. You know you, again, google is not the place to go. They just said there's no point going to early pregnancy between the in those 10 days because they're waiting for that 10 day mark. So if I went anywhere in between, they would just be like we won't know until it's meant to be a heartbeat. So I was pretty much just sat with my intense anxiety.
Speaker 1:I went to see a friend who is she? She only knew about the pregnancy because she decorated some baby shoes for Tom who he wanted to give to his mum. So she was aware of the pregnancy that way. So I went to visit her and she was in, uh, the later stages of her pregnancy. She was due any week. So she said, oh yeah, I had discharged, that was normal. But she's there trying to make me feel better. Another friend again, like all of all of my pregnant friends or motherly friends, all said it was normal and not to worry and you'll be fine. But yeah, I was just. I was weepy all the time. I was so anxious, every anything time. I was so anxious, anything I felt I was going to lose. It's hard to explain the feeling, the sensations you get with discharge, I guess, but any sensation I had, I was in the bathroom checking.
Speaker 3:And obviously they're saying this word to you, they're saying everything is fine. You know, this is normal. That is normal Not from a place of malice, right? It's all from a place of good intentions, also based off of their experience in wanting to alleviate the stress and anxiety that they see you're expressing and you're carrying. And also, on the other hand, in hindsight, you can look back and just be like that still was not helpful.
Speaker 1:No, no, and it's like you can't fault anyone for just wanting to say something to make you feel better. We all do it, you know we all give. You know it's not, you know it'll be fine, it'll be okay, you'll get through it. We all, we all do it, you know, we all give. You know it's not. So you know it'll be fine, it'll be okay, you'll get through it. But we all, we all do it, we're all. We all are the same. We all just want to make someone feel better.
Speaker 1:There's nothing worse than seeing someone suffering and, just right, not being able to say anything. I later found out. Another friend of mine, whom I met within the 10 days, spoke to her recently and she said I had the exact same experience before my miscarriage and I wanted to tell you. I wanted to, to share with you, but I didn't want to burden you with that piece of knowledge. She was like I couldn't tell. I couldn't tell you that those were my symptoms before I lost mine, because you don't want to hear that. That's, that's just sending you to go home thinking the worst. But she said, she said she could see my anguish and she knew exactly how I felt and she said I can't, I couldn't tell you that what I thought was going to happen.
Speaker 3:Obviously, hindsight is 20-20. And in that moment you didn't know what you didn't know. You still had maybe the beginnings of an internal suspicion that things were not going right. So if we can stipulate right, if we can just play this, if we can play this thought experiment out, and that friend actually had said to you hey, listen, I don't mean this to scare you, I'm just sharing this because this was what I experienced and you're basically sort of on the same trajectory as I was and my pregnancy ended up in a miscarriage. If she had shared something like that with you again thought experiment would you think the value of that would have been, or if there would have been any value in having that conversation at all?
Speaker 1:I want to say I think I'd know what my reaction would be and I'd be like, gee, thanks for that. That's not really helpful. But actually I think what I think I was feeling was everyone was so positive about it. Not positive, they're all thinking positively. You know, I'm sort of the same. Until there's bad news, it's fine. Yeah, you know, my mum found, um, found a lump, and I said, have you been to the doctor? Sure no. And I was like, have you got an appointment? Well, until you come back and tell me there's something terrifying, I'm not going to be terrified, I'm exactly the same. I'm like right, it's fine, you'll go to the doctor and we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:I was tired. I felt like everyone was going, don't you know? Calm down, don't worry, take deep breaths, you'll be fine, you'll go to the thing and you'll go to the scan. And I was just getting a little bit kind of that's not helping, nothing's helping. I'm anxious. I need someone to just say okay, you're anxious. Literally the Sunday before the appointment, the discharge went from it went red to the first like I spotted, like there was definitely red.
Speaker 3:It sounded like you were screaming and no one was listening. You were screaming and no one was listening. Yeah, you just needed that one person to say hey, I hear you and that's the end of the story. And again, this is not to criticize anyone who wanted to make you feel better, because it all comes from a good place.
Speaker 1:Of course it does. You wouldn't want anyone to sit there and feel anguished. You'd want to say anything to make them feel better. And it's the same even afterwards. People will say things that they think are going to make you feel better or make sense to them at the time, but nothing makes you feel better.
Speaker 1:My mum comes to be with me for the scan. She's the ultimate happy thoughts mum. But on the Sunday, the night before I just knew Tom got called away to France for work. I told him I'd be fine, he should go. He shouldn't pass up the opportunity to impress his boss over a 15-minute appointment in 10 days and if anything happens, he can always come back the longest 10 days ever. My mum came to be with me because Tom was away with work. He was in France with work and it was the Sunday before the scan and I called a friend. I rang my friend and said I need someone to hear me, To hear me say that it's not going to be okay and that it's not going to be good news tomorrow. And I'm going to be okay even if it is bad news. I just needed to say it out loud.
Speaker 3:This is what you wanted someone to validate about how you were feeling. What I find fascinating about that is that, because you couldn't find it anywhere else, you decided to take it upon yourself to say it out loud for you to hear it.
Speaker 1:No, because my mom was up with me and you know she was saying you know all smiles and let's go for coffee. You know she was trying to keep me busy and keep me distracted and she was getting ready for bed when I voice noted my friend and I just said I I know deep down it's going to be bad news tomorrow and I just need someone to hear me say it and for that to be okay, for it being bad news to also be okay. And she got back to me and she said that it was very brave to say all that. She's like that's, it's horrible, but it's really brave of you to say. I want to go back a little bit to Tom being at work in France.
Speaker 3:He didn't want to go back a little bit to Tom being at work in France. He didn't want to go.
Speaker 1:Yet you encouraged him and you said go, impress your boss it's going to, which, as I'm sure lots of people are aware is a pretty demanding uncertain, especially last year with all the strikes, and I think that affected us over here quite badly as well. Tom works for a company that is contracted by production, so he's a full time employee. He's not like me, he's self-employed and he's quite new. He's only been in the company less than two years, so you know, you're still a junior, you're still going to be the yes man. I think in any company If you've not been there longer than 10 years, you've got to say yes until you can start saying no.
Speaker 1:And a production that was in France, a member of his team had to leave for his own family crisis bereavement, I believe it was and they need to send someone out there straight away. And Tom was the next on the list. And they said Tom, can we, can we send you to France on Monday morning? This was on Sunday around lunchtime, so can we send you to France tomorrow? You need to let us know in the next two hours. Tom's response was can I give out to you? I need to obviously check with my girlfriend and it was going to be for three weeks, so he comes back to me and he said that was work. They want me to go to France. And I went oh okay, that's cool, off, you go. And he said what about your scan? Said, well, that's in 10 days and it's only 20 minutes and it's going to be fine. I mean, it's going to be fine.
Speaker 1:His mum, the bed wife next to me, was like it's gonna be fine, it's only 10, it's a 20 minute appointment. And and I said, if anything happens, you can always come back. You can't tell me they won't let you come back if you had to. And he was like yeah. I guess I was like yeah, so go, you have to say yes, you can't say no. You've always wanted to work abroad anyway. This would be a great way to show you know that you're committed and you know your ego and you're you know you're willing to do anything. Sounds great. South of France, why not? So off he went. And then I spent 10 days with my well, with friends or with my mum. So I shipped him off and it wasn't. Honestly, it wasn't. It was because of the whole. I would only been 24 hours, 48 hours since the previous scan by this point, and everyone was telling me it was going to be fine.
Speaker 3:I don't think the anxiety had really factored in yet okay and yeah, it was all meant to be fine and now here he is, in france, he goes, and there's this crescendo, this emotional crescendo that leads you to send this voice message to your friend and say I just need to say this out loud what did Elspeth expect out of that for herself?
Speaker 1:I don't know if I expected anything. I think I just needed. I think I was just holding everything in. I don't like to burden others with my problems, so, and I'm very good at carrying others through their own problems. So I always want you know, when my mom's there and my mom's doing her best to be helpful and distracting, and I'm trying my best to be brave and positive. You know we went to Kew Gardens for the day and we went to Windsor to be brave and positive. You know we went to Kew Gardens for the day and we went to Windsor for the day.
Speaker 1:You know we were trying to be distracting and I think I was tired of being brave. I just needed to say it out loud because I I could feel it sitting on my chest, and so I said it and my mum had gone to bed. I do remember tapping her on the shoulder after I'd voiced it to my friend. I remember tapping her on the shoulder and she rolled over and I just said I'm scared now, I don't think tomorrow is going to be very good, and that was like the first time she didn't say it's going to be fine. She just sort of nodded and she rubbed my arm and we went to sleep.
Speaker 3:You've always wanted to be a mom. From above my arm and we went to sleep, you've always wanted to be a mom. And now there is this internal feeling, this internal force, this force of nature that's letting you know that's not going to happen in this instance. What died?
Speaker 1:It was a surprise how quickly I got pregnant. So I guess a bit of me just felt like, well, it's not going to be that easy again. So I guess, hope, joy, all the excitement, all of that stuff's gone Back to hospital, back in the ultrasound room, and my fear was concerned. The technician had to get a second opinion. It was policy. I turned to my mum and I said what did I do? What did I do? She was heartbroken for me. I remember lying there and thinking was it something I did or didn't do? Why did this happen?
Speaker 3:So you go back, 10 days are up, you're at the doctor's appointment, you're in the ultrasound room. What was said to you there?
Speaker 1:Well, she said okay, well, I'm really sorry, I didn't need to hear the rest of the sentence. She said there isn't. And I remember her saying there isn't a harm being the baby's not grown. But I only remember really really hearing I'm sorry and I just, and she said that she had to get a second opinion, a second set of eyes, because it's policy. So I had to wait for her to leave the room and come back with someone else to say it all over again. She left the room and I turned to my mom and I said what did I do?
Speaker 3:What did you mean by that?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I was into me. It had to be my fault.
Speaker 3:Did it matter at that time that you went and you bought all the vitamins and you were a brave girl and you were trying to get all of the nutrients from the yucky green stuff that normally you didn't like?
Speaker 1:well, well, that's what I mean.
Speaker 3:I did everything I was supposed to do which is why I'm asking what did it mean that you asked what did I do?
Speaker 1:well then it was what didn't I do? Or did I do something I shouldn't have, or I don't know. It was just. I just remember looking at her and I was. She was heartbroken as well, because she knew how much I need, how much I wanted it. And then, you know, another man comes in, looks at the scan and he goes yeah, I agree. And so they turned to me and say, oh um, we'll give you a minute and we'll come in and we'll discuss what's going to happen. This left me alone with my mum. To they could they? Probably, I think they would have left me in there for hours if I needed them to. They kept poking their head back in an hour until I was ready to see them.
Speaker 1:Then I remembered Tom. I had to tell him, and while I waited for the consultant, I rang him. He was in shock. So I put on my big, brave voice and I said I'm fine, I have my mum, I'm being looked after and he should stay in France. Work would be good for him. Work would be good for him, keep him distracted, and I was just going to spend the next few weeks recovering at my mum's. If he wanted to come home, I'd have to stand, but France stay.
Speaker 3:You'll appreciate the distraction and we can call every day, did you?
Speaker 1:think about Tom in that time and his absence in the room. I spoke to Tom about this, I said because obviously he was away, and I said my mom was the best person to be in the room. I think all of us can probably agree when you're really sick, there's no one like your mum, and I know Tom would take care of me if I had the worst flu in the world, if I was throwing up left, right and centre, he would take care of me. But there is no one like your mum, so I'm really thankful that she was there. But then, within maybe five minutes of my initial upset it was then I then had to tell Tom it wasn't that he was there receiving the news at the same time. I then had to deliver that news myself. I remember turning oh, I turned my mum. I was like, oh god, I have to tell Tom what was that conversation like?
Speaker 1:well he was already. He'd, he'd already messaged to say I hope it's you know, thinking of you. I hope the scan goes well. Let me know when you're out. You know I'll have my phone with me, let me know where you are, I think I.
Speaker 1:I went to voice note first because I thought if he's on set he can't answer his phone. I just went into like rational mode. He's going to be on set. He may not be able to answer his phone, so maybe I should just leave a voice note saying call me when you can. And I thought, no, I'm just going to call, because if I'm calling, he knows it's a problem. So I'm just going to call him. And so I call and I just I said it wasn't good, it wasn't good, it isn't good news.
Speaker 1:Bean's gone. And he was just in shock. I remember him just saying oh my God, oh my God, personality type caregiver I have to make, I have to please everybody and look after everybody. I instantly went into. I said I'm okay, I'm going to be okay, my mum is here. And he said what's what? I need to come home, I need to come home. And I said no, no, take a deep breath. I don't know what. They're gonna talk through some options with me and then I'm probably just gonna go to my mum's house. I'm probably just gonna be sad at my mum's house for a couple of weeks.
Speaker 1:Um, I think staying at work would be good for you. So I left it with him and I know he obviously rang his managers straight away and one of his managers, I believe, told him that the same thing had happened to his wife and that he completely understood if Tom wanted to go home. But he also said to Tom you may really want to have this distraction. Work will keep you busy. She's with her mum, she'll be taken care of, but being distracted will help. And I don't think that was the manager thinking of the business needs. I do genuinely believe that was him thinking about what would be best for Tom, because in the end, actually, this manager was then checking in on Tom quite a lot and after Tom returned from France, he was asking Tom about me and offered his wife's contact details. Should I want to talk to somebody? On Mother's Day, tom got me a little card we named our little one Bean. We were so very excited.
Speaker 3:I think that naming, the act of naming, is a hugely significant act. What did it mean for you and Tom to name your baby Bean?
Speaker 1:He was. It was Bean from from the beginning. Bean is like a inside thing for Tom and I. I have a cat that lives with my mom. She's Willow Bean. Tom calls me his Bean. He's my favorite human Bean. It's just this thing that we have.
Speaker 1:I was baking a bean, I don't know, it was just just. It made it real. Yeah, because the app says it's the size of a lentil, it's the size of a. You know. It says what size it is, but it doesn't. You don't know anything more than that. It doesn't look like anything yet. So it was bean and tom. I suppose you think when you get the bad news, you end up kicking yourself for being so excited. Tom gave me a Mother's Day card. Mother's Day for us was the end of March. I think it's the third weekend of March in the UK, our Mother's Day. So I had a Mother's Day card from Bean and I got. I bought Tom on Valentine's Day a baked bean plushie. So I look back now and it you just feel so silly for getting so excited. It was important at the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say, which also in retrospect and like the real scope of things, why wouldn't you have been excited? Right, my wife gave me a onesie that says you know, congratulations, you're going to be a dad. The first time that she got pregnant and I've spoken about this here I slept with that thing under my pillow. It was like my comfort thing. And after both the first and the second miscarriage, I just I kicked myself.
Speaker 3:I was like how could I be so like you say, how can, how could I be so, so stupid, you know to to to feel excited about this thing, knowing now what I know. But I think that's the, that's the thing. It's knowing now what I know. That is casting this back shadow on an excitement that is not misplaced, and it's not. What else are you supposed to do when someone you love says to you from you know, in my experience, you're going to be a dad? Or when you go to someone you love and you say we're going to be parents, you're going to be a dad, I'm going to be a mom. What else are you supposed to do?
Speaker 1:Well, it's like the levels that Tom and I went to. Like Tom I mentioned before, he got shoes made for his mom to tell her the news Little baby converse that he got painted to with the the due date on it. And I bought this little bandana that said I'm going to be a big sister to wrap around my cat's neck. And so when I went to my mum's house, I tied this bandana on my cat, I put her on the bed and I set up a camera and I called my mum in and said mum, there's something wrong with, there's something wrong with Willow. She's she's acting really weird. There's something wrong with Willow. She's acting really weird. She's like a 17-year-old cat, so there is a possibility that that could actually happen. So my mum was like straight in the room when is she, what's wrong with her? And my cat's on the bed looking like what are you humans doing?
Speaker 1:And my mum goes up to this cat and she sees the bandana and she looks at it and she goes I'm gonna be a big sister to, what? What are you gonna be a big sister to? And she looks at me and I'm stood there beaming at her and she's like are you getting another cat? I would, I would go to all this trouble to tell you that I'm getting a cat, and she, then she, then she twigs and she goes yeah, are you pregnant? And you know all of that joy and all that excitement. I've got it all on video and it. You know it's just this. Well, what am I supposed to do with that? Like this beautiful moment that I have? What am I supposed to do with it?
Speaker 3:And those are the questions that are inevitable when you experience a miscarriage the retrospective questions why did I feel this way? Why did I go through all the trouble to do that thing or to do these things? Why did I say that? Why didn't I say that? Why did I do that? Why didn't I do that? Why did I do that? Why didn't I do that?
Speaker 3:It's just a constant series of why? Questions and revision after revision, and every single it's like the chain of choices and decisions and circumstances just seem to get so magnified as a result of this experience. And it is one of the more unsettling things that someone can go through when you go through a miscarriage, because we never got to the point of seeing our babies, we never got to the point of experiencing them in the way that I can now experience my two boys. This is all in many regards. This is all in an abstract sense, yet it is very real after calling Tom and they come back in the room and it's like the opening gambit is it's so common.
Speaker 3:I wonder, if it's so common, then how come, as my health care provider, you never said anything to me about it? How come it's not just like you asked earlier. How come you guys aren't being taught this in school? Like this is the kind of stuff that that should be spoken about. You know what I mean? Like it's common. If it's common, then that means we're not talking about a rarity, we're not talking about an anomaly, we're talking about something that is common. Shouldn't that make it a little more palatable to hey, we're excited that you're pregnant. We're excited that you know you're thinking about becoming pregnant. We're excited that people want to have children.
Speaker 1:And we're here for you and we'll walk you through it 100%. However, with anything like XYZ I was thinking earlier before it's like a secret society that everyone knows exists. We all know the secret anxiety is there. No one wants to join it, but as soon as you're in it, there's like a secret handshake and everyone and really not secret society. But it's really exclusive and we don't want anyone in.
Speaker 3:But as soon as you're in it, and that's part of the paradox. It's something that is so common, it happens so commonly and yet there's so much secrecy around it. That's the reason why I created this space. That's the reason why I engage in these conversations and I invite people to share their story, because it doesn't have to be so secret. This impacts so many people's lives on a daily basis.
Speaker 1:But it's funny how people who know that I've been away from work obviously there's that like oh, come on, what's the deets? Why are we away from work for so long? And you don't want to say you want to protect them from the discomfort, because it's like this is going to essentially put a really big downer on the next five minute conversation. If I tell you why I wasn't here, and for some people I would say, if I knew them enough or I'd worked with them before, I would just say it because I'm. It's not something I'm ashamed of, it's nothing I should be ashamed of. So why should I not say and it was so funny that it just sort of happened in the most random interactions I had a lady come to inspect the flat I'm assuming to share that I haven't trashed the place. I don't know why she comes. She comes once a year. She came in and I'd only been back to work for like the second day after this five-week absence, and film and tv were the days along and after essentially being in bed for five weeks and having long sleepy days, to suddenly be back on my feet for 12 hours. I was quite tired. She comes in, she goes. Oh, I'm sorry if this is really, if this is too early. I wouldn't know any time before noon would have been too early. I've been off work for five weeks and she went. Oh gosh, five weeks, that's a long time. I hope you're okay.
Speaker 1:And I just went and actually had a miscarriage and I think it's easier with women to say it. Obviously women's health issues, I could you know. If it's a woman it's so easy to say. It's harder when it's a man. But with her I just said it and she instantly went oh my gosh, I've had two, I'm so sorry. And I ended up making a cup of tea and we ended up talking for an hour, not about my flat or anything, and she said I've got two girls now, so she's got a happy ending to her story.
Speaker 1:It was, I don't know, the woman. I'm probably not going to see her again because I'm leaving this flat in the next three months. But I said what had happened and I found another ally, another person, another person in the club and I got to talk to somebody because it's the other thing. It feels I'm not saying people get that you're never going to get over it, but it's because the physical, the physical problems are gone. Physically I'm fine, physically I'm well, I can go to work, I can do anything. So there are some days I don't feel it and I don't think about it. But then sometimes it's there. But who do I talk to about it without sounding like I'm just indulging in grief, burdening them with my sadness, when it happened two months ago now?
Speaker 3:So, as we bring this conversation to a closing point, how can you help a guy navigate how he supports his female partner?
Speaker 1:I think of course I understand the male psychological need to be the protector and the strong. I need to be strong for them. But it's okay to not be brave as well and, depending on circumstance, you were just as excited and you had just as much input and as much riding on it as she did. So, emotionally, you don't have to be brave, you don't have to be strong. And even letting her see and feel that is almost just as valid as you. Keeping that to not burden her with that, because sometimes it's almost. I know from my experience. I then worried that I was overburdening Tom so that he had no room to show if he felt what I felt, because I was so sad and I was so grief-stricken and he was being so strong and so brave. And I remember saying it's okay if you aren't, and so you know it's, there's almost, and the burden goes the other way, because it's okay to be just as broken and to share that. If you are just as broken, share it, because then it's even then that then they're not alone in how broken they feel.
Speaker 1:On the flip side of that, there is a definite need for patience, a lot more patience than you think if you, if it was something that you guys were trying for. You know, we were told we to wait a couple cycles before we try again. But I'm even from. Just any kind of physical intimacy could be a struggle and you have to be patient with that because physically, physically, the toll that we go through is depending on what management of your miscarriage was.
Speaker 1:Mine was surgical, if yours wasn't, if yours was at home, if yours was at home, if yours was, you know, medical, surgical, whatever the management was, the physical toll that goes on. I don't think there'll be any way to describe it. So patience is so important. I know you guys are going to have needs at some point and you're going to have tensions and frustrations that you want to get out in a sexual way and sometimes just even the thought of kissing was too much. I just wanted to be held, but kissing was too far because I don't feel attractive, I don't feel healthy, I don't feel like I work, like I.
Speaker 3:Just I want to be that you drew attention to that Things change in terms of your intimacy with that person. Intimate moments change as a result.
Speaker 1:Doesn't mean they won't change back.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:Hormonally you're also a mess. So I, hormonally, was still pregnant for three weeks after well, technically, four or five weeks after, my body still thought I was pregnant. After my miscarriage, after my surgical management three weeks later, I was still pregnant. Three weeks after that I finally got the all clear. So, even hormonally, I'm all over the place. I don't know what I'm going to want in any way, shape or form. So patience is so important. Time is a very fluid construct when it comes to your mental, emotional, physical health and I think with something like this, it's every day at a time. But you just have to be patient and I think, even from not necessarily being a dad experiencing it, but if anybody else is hearing it, be careful with saying the phrase at least. At least you know you can yeah, yes at least you can try again.
Speaker 1:Yes, at least you and tom have the right biological chemistry to make it work. I hear whoever thought of the word at least, or the words at least, can lick my shoe because it is. I know that it's just. It's band-aids for bullet wounds. I know you're trying to help and make it feel better, but at least it doesn't make anyone feel better.
Speaker 3:And from the guy's side, it's just more sex, it's just. It's just, it's don't minimize it. It's just more sex, it's just, it's just, don't minimize it.
Speaker 1:It's just yeah.
Speaker 3:Don't minimize it and don't try to pacify it either. There is no comfort in at least, or just or anything else that falls in that realm. Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1:I completely understand the need to try and make, say, a silver lining in such a horrible situation. You see someone broken and you want to give them a silver lining as something to hope for. So you say at least you know, at least you can, but that doesn't stop the fact that I lost my baby. That at least doesn't fix that. It doesn't, nothing fixes it. So I don't know. Essentially just saying I'm sorry, that's shit, and I'm here for you.
Speaker 3:Sorry if swearing's not good.
Speaker 1:That's fine. I mean it is. We can swear a lot more over here. Um surprise, it's only happened now. But you know, just saying, you're there, saying that if you need a distraction, if you just want to, if you just want to pick up the phone, but you don't have to give us a silver lining or a platitude. We, we don't need that because it won't help. But it's funny having heard all of them. We, we nod along and go yeah, that's right, that's true, because we then want to make you feel better for trying.
Speaker 2:Thank you ¶¶. © transcript Emily Beynon. Thank you.
