The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E28: Miscarriage Echoes (ft. Elspeth Edmonds)
Welcome to episode 28!
After facing a devastating miscarriage, Elspeth returns to share her raw, heartfelt experience and the silent battles that follow such a loss. Struggling with her self-confidence, Elspeth's story highlights the invisible grief that many women endure. We reflect on how sudden waves of mourning can catch us off guard and discuss the complex emotions tied to unfulfilled dreams and expectations.
This episode shines a light on the intimate, often unspoken struggles women face during and after a miscarriage. We emphasize the necessity of understanding and compassion in relationships, the healing power of open conversations, and the challenges of discussing deeply personal feelings. By sharing stories of vulnerability, whether through the bravery of a sports personality or our own narratives, we underscore the importance of support and communication in navigating such profound loss.
Join us as we embrace the strength found in vulnerability and the solace of shared stories.
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
Instagram: @themiscarriagedad
Email: themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
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Outwardly nothing has changed, but inside I was betrayed and everything is different.
Speaker 3:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, the podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Hi, elspeth, hi, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good, but good.
Speaker 3:Thank you for coming back to the podcast to pick up the conversation from where we left off and to also just talk about and check in about how you've been. You messaged me before we got on and you said that it had been a particularly difficult week for you week for you and so I am going to give you the floor to talk about what was surprising to you this week in particular.
Speaker 1:Well, it's been I think it's been three months to the day actually, since my since, actually the surgical management, so literally since it was all over and last week it was like a perfect storm of being busy and tired. I did two days night shoots um, you remember, I'm in the film and tv industry and I did two days in Bristol night shoots and then I had a really early costume fitting and there's nothing like being tired with no sleep and a costume fitting to really make you hate your body and be, um, have some self-confidence issues. And I went to this costume fitting and I had to take my own clothes, which isn't common, and a lot of my clothes weren't fitting um, from some weight gain at the beginning of the pregnancy, but also from the last year. And I came home and I was just miserable and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. And Tom came home and I just burst into tears and I just was so exhausted.
Speaker 1:And then, in the middle of all of the sobbing, I just came out with and I should be showing right now. I'm supposed to be showing. I didn't even know that was coming. I didn't know that sentence was going to come out of my mouth and it really took me by surprise Because on a daily basis I don't really think about. By surprise because on a daily basis I don't really think about it, you know, because I'm busy or I'm doing things. But I think in the last week my self-confidence has really taken a hit from that betrayal that I feel. You know, I feel betrayed by my body and now my self-confidence is really wrapped up in that. I think and yeah, I should be blooming and glowing and all those things that people say when you're pregnant. And words came out of your mouth.
Speaker 3:What was your reaction afterwards?
Speaker 1:Oh, the sobbing intensified and then I sort of thought, well, it was just shock really, and Tom obviously was there the whole time and looked after me, and then I just wiped the tears, got and made dinner. I think it was just kind of not. Oh well, but yeah, okay. So I was supposed to be showing, but I'm not, so, my, it was sort of strange. It feels like my clothes shouldn't fit for a good reason rather than this, you know, and it was just that just caught me off guard that I still feel.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I said this before, but it's not like a physical injury where you're in a cast for a few months and everyone can see you've got an injury. You know, it's all very. There's lots of outward signs of your injury and there's a very clear path on recovery. So with this, there's no, in your six weeks, you do this exercise, do these exercises every day and you'll you'll be well on the mend. There are, there's no guide to it, and then also, on, there is an outward sign for other people to know why you might not be yourself that day.
Speaker 3:Which can be something so challenging to navigate, because we tend to ascribe grief to very tangible things. And you're right, because there isn't this outward sign, because there isn't this physical body, because there isn't a scar that somebody could see or that even you could see, it makes it very difficult to know how to even relate to that and to do I accept it, do I not? Is it okay for me to feel this way? Is it not okay for me to feel this way after such a long time? And should I just check it up to you know, I was just tired or is there something there? Or whatever the case is, I can tell you that this happened to me several months ago.
Speaker 3:One night, early morning must've been around like two o'clock in the morning. I had not been thinking about anything, I had not been triggered by anything that I knew of or that I could think of at the time. I just could not sleep. And I go through these periods where I just can't sleep while my wife is next to me and she is passed out and she's having the best sleep of her life.
Speaker 3:I woke up that morning and it must have been, like I said, around two o'clock in the morning or a little bit later, and I just sat up on my bed and I just started thinking and all of a sudden I was flooded with emotions because the thought that occupied my mind was you and your wife are done having children and you've always wanted to be a girl dad and you will never get to be a girl dad. And as that thought just started to fill my mind more and more, I just could not stop the tears from streaming down my face and I just sat there to something in the morning, my wife sleeping comfortably next to me, and I am weeping in silence. And it had been about a year and change after the particular miscarriage that we had when we found out that that would have been our daughter.
Speaker 1:I think when it comes out of nowhere, when you don't have anything, when you can't pinpoint what might have triggered it, that's when it just kind of throws you through. It just completely throws you. It's easy for me to say it's because I was exhausted that day. But what about today? Like I'm not particularly exhausted today, but today I feel like I can't. We have a very empty fridge. I didn't know what I was supposed to cook today, but I couldn't get myself to Tesco, but I just didn't want to go. There's varying degrees of it as well. There's like it's not always weeping and sadness, it's it's walking past the children's clothes and Tesco's and just taking a deep breath and then carrying on to the dairy aisle and just taking a deep breath and then carrying on to the dairy aisle.
Speaker 3:Or it's watching a movie and seeing something that you aspire to have on screen which reminds you that in real life, in your real life, you're not going to get that.
Speaker 1:I don't know whether the last couple of days obviously it's been it has been pushed forward a bit, especially with the release of the episode I did with you, because I have had lots of people coming out and speaking to me. Obviously family knew, so they weren't reaching out. They would just say, you know, they were proud of my bravery and speaking forward and things like that. But then, out of nowhere, someone I hadn't spoken to in could be a decade, text me. I don't know if this is still your number, but this happened to me. And then people that I haven't you know, I haven't what.
Speaker 1:I don't work at these places anymore, but people that I used to work with have messaged me and there's this sort of strange kind of I've shared with people something that a part of my life that I wouldn't have shared with them if I hadn't. Even if I'd seen them, I wouldn't have shared with them because they were somebody I don't speak to anymore. But now they're, they're in on the secret. I don't regret my decision for sharing it at all, but it was suddenly very kind of again the secret club that you're in, suddenly you're discovering new members again and it's quite. It was quite sort of shocking I think as well for me that all the people in my life, even from chapters of my life that I thought were closed, are all suddenly now in this chapter with me. I think that caught me as well.
Speaker 3:I don't know if your experience for how to approach this conversation or either your disposition to sharing that part of you with someone or not just the whole thing in general, if, aside from discomfort, if fear is a reason for or against sharing that story in a public way or sort of just being open about which someone can just strike that conversation with somebody else, obviously in an appropriate context of you, was part of it. It certainly was, was a part of my reasons for hesitating so long to even publicly opening myself and my story up to sharing it on a podcast. You know that's going to outlive me. Is that something that's also true to to you?
Speaker 1:I mean for the most part I guess in my upbringing it was. You know you keep your topics of discussion to the weather, you don't go too personal with anything. And then when it comes to my public facing, you know, as an actor I don't tend to share personal things. I'm doing what's on the script, what's on the page, I'm not myself and someone else. So this is the first time I've been very, very openly personal, publicly, I think, for me, but in day-to-day conversations it's funny who I chose to tell.
Speaker 1:So I was on set a few weeks ago, maybe a month or so ago, and there was somebody who I'd worked with before and I said that I'd been on the job but I took a good few weeks off sick leave. You went gosh, that's a long time to take sick leave. Is everything okay? And I felt okay. I actually feel safe to tell you because I I know you enough or I've worked with you before. But had it been someone that I didn't, I didn't know that I would pick and choose who. I said it to right, mostly to protect them from their discomfort rather than my own. So this very kind of I want to protect you from this uncomfortable conversation because I know you're going to be uncomfortable, rather than my own discomfort, but I think that was also at the time because I really felt alone and wanted to share. So I would have been happy, I would have happily told anyone who asked me how I was, but my protectedness almost of them, I didn't want them to be uncomfortable, so I would just say, oh, I'd rather not talk about it, it's fine, and they wouldn't push it.
Speaker 1:But I also think there's an element of for women personally, we don't talk about what's going on with our bodies, and even when it's just menstrual pain, we're in pain but we take our painkillers and we don't talk about it. So because it would be uncomfortable, particularly for the men folk, we couldn't possibly tell them there was possibly anything going on in our bodies that would make them uncomfortable. So I think there's also an element of that as well, because we're taught that what happens within our female reproductive system, that it's an uncomfortable talk of, men don't like it and it should be just kept between the women. But I think there's also an element of that. Maybe I definitely feel more comfortable telling women that I. I think there's also an element of that. Maybe I definitely feel more comfortable telling women than I do men.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about that a little bit, because this is a podcast that is focused on how miscarriage impacts men. And here you are, as a woman, and you're telling me. I mean, you trusted me with your story and not just me, but you have decided to share your story with many other men who listened to this podcast. Talk to me about what that experience was like when we last spoke and you opening up yourself in such a public way, especially that being your first time doing so with a story that is so personal and intimate.
Speaker 1:Well with you. It's because I was already looking for places to get support, help stories, you know, to make myself feel less alone. So when I was in recovery, I watched a wonderful documentary about um miscarriage called Mylene Class Miscarriage, and Me and I, what I joined, followed, uh, the Tommy's charity and the Sands charity, and then there's a miscarriage mama's support. And that was when I saw a reel that they shared from you and you. You, I remember you saying within 10 days it was gone and it was exactly like my experience because it went from one scan 10 days later and it was gone and it was that instant. I know that, that I know what that feels like. So I that's what I, I think I commented saying this is this is exactly what happened to me. And then you wrote back and it was that instant common ground. So sharing with you was easy because you know that experience, you felt it, you know it and you've gone through it. So that experience it was easy to share with you.
Speaker 1:But when in out in the real world, it's not like there are many men advertising it really that is true unless they're telling their friends who are going through it with their spouses, if that makes sense it's like we're in the matrix, like this whole thing just feels like it's two different realities.
Speaker 3:There is the, the virtual reality that we construct, and then there's the real world, where everything is just stripped barren and you just see how cold and industrial and isolating and cloud crowded it is and it's very unwelcoming. But then we create all of these structures around us to avoid that reality. And it's these moments where the line between the matrix and the real world gets completely blurred and you find yourself having to mix them in a way that you would rather never do and there's just no, there's nothing for it. You just don't even know how to navigate that. That's certainly how I felt when I was carrying the weight of the losses that we're experiencing, as we're experiencing them.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming it's for men, particularly the whole man up scenario. You don't, you are all taught this is very some assuming all of this from a very female perspective. You don't, you're taught not to really share this, any of these things. So until somebody knocks on that door and says I'm going through something, then you have that door's open for you to go. I'm also going through that thing, whereas for in my experience, uh, slightly emotional counterparts that the women are, we're more. We're able to share our emotions and our burdens or feel more safe to do so.
Speaker 1:And like, funnily enough, that one of the people I was speaking to who I told on this set he was at, he was a man, he, um, and he instantly he said my sister went through it. So he said I, I'm so, I know how difficult it must be, and so it was. In it there was something he, he had experienced it through someone close to him. And I was like I bet there are more men on this set in this film crew who have experienced, had had it, had experienced it with people close to them. But again, I was at work, so it was only so much that I was prepared to open up to, because I also had to be at work and be professional and put it in its box and save it till I got home.
Speaker 3:I'm curious how often do you and Tom talk about it between the two of you?
Speaker 1:Not much, only when it's very obviously bothering me, and then he'll just sit with me and comfort me in however way I need and then. But otherwise it's not really a topic, it's not really something that we talk about. I don't think that's because we don't want to. I just think it's because I've got life to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. I'm not. I'm actually not surprised by that response at all. That was the response that I was anticipating, because it's the same between me and my wife, and it's not until recently, in a conversation that I was having with my friend, that it dawned on me that it's not just difficult to have this conversation with people outside of your circle, it's a difficult conversation to have even with the person who experiences it as intimately as you do in your partner. That just illuminated so many things for me, because I realized here I am and here is my wife and we live in the same. We live in the same house, like we have the same address. You know, we sleep in the same bed.
Speaker 3:Even at that, it is incredibly difficult for us to to talk about it, not because we don't want to. Obviously, life is happening. We have two very energetic boys. I mean, things are, things are happening.
Speaker 3:Yet that is a reality that makes up our day to day life and it's always in the background. And it's been in the background since the moment that we first started trying to have children and she was pregnant and we lost that first pregnancy. It's just been part of our lives and yet we treat it as if it has not been, except for a very few occasions. And so when I was talking to my buddy, I was like man, if it's something that's so difficult to talk about, what are the things that we are not discussing? That in discussing them it can help me, it can help her feel better about ourselves, or help us understand why we respond to whatever circumstance. Why am I so short-tempered when these type of things happen? Right, like what kind of? What kind of discoveries could be made if we change our attitude about addressing this and become more intentionally open about it?
Speaker 1:I mean this. This is obviously happened quite recent for me, so three months but in day-to-day life, for example, we're trying to move out of this flat and get a bigger place, a second room, which was always the plan because we wanted to start a family, so we'd need a second room. But now for me there is this tiny bit of anxiety, a bit of sort of because we're told if you're going to try again, wait a couple of cycles. And then there's, almost now, this little bit of extra pressure that we're getting the second room. So now that room has to be filled and I've already just had this and obviously, with all of the bad news, people are saying at least you can try again, At least you know you can. So there's that extra pressure Not pressure, there is no pressure, but there is that almost like people will be waiting for that room was going to be filled.
Speaker 3:So the fact that my day to day life now is looking for a place with a second room, which itself is this reminder of why you're even looking for the second room?
Speaker 1:Well, it would have been a very different scenario had it not happened, so it would be very joyfully looking at this second room absolutely we're gonna go now. The second room is there and it's like, oh, you know, and yeah, this could, but it's there's, it's very, uh, almost sterile in how I'm doing it now, because there's just this tiny little bit. That's like again it's a confidence issue. Now Confidence is completely shot.
Speaker 3:And it also feels like a chore at times, like if this doesn't happen, then what I would have done all of this? I would have put all this effort, and so what do I have to show for it?
Speaker 1:I was talking to another friend of mine who's a Christian. But I got at the beginning of this year. I didn't have any work and I was starting to panic. That my purpose. I didn't have anything to fill my time. And then I was pregnant and I'm agnostic. I don't know how I feel, but I said, whatever there is, the universe, whoever has the plan, has now given me this. So maybe that's why I wasn't getting work, because now I've got this to focus on, because I'm going to at some point I'm not gonna be able to work. My job would not be able to cope with that extra burden. So that's why I said that makes sense. This has been put in my path instead, and which is great, because this is what I've always wanted. So finally, the universe is listening. And then I got a job, and then the pregnancy was good. The betrayal in that was also really strong. So I was, my body betrayed me. And then whatever, whatever the plan was, the universe, the whatever's going on, they that's betrayed me too. So I had no purpose. Then I was given something that was going to give me so much purpose. That was going to be two decades at least of, well, the rest of my life purpose as being a mum and then that was taken away and now I'm unemployed again, which is great.
Speaker 1:So it's just this constant storm of feeling betrayed, angry, low self-esteem, no confidence, sadness, shame and that word shame's come up a lot with people. One of the women who texted me said I shame, shamefully, never spoke about it. I'm like there's no shame in not wanting to talk about it. I want to talk about it because it makes me feel better. But if not talking about it was what you needed, then that there's no shame in that either.
Speaker 1:Shame that women feel for all kinds of things. My friend who's a new mom, eight week old, the shame she feels if she wants to have two minutes to herself now that she's got this very, very important little person who needs her attention all the time. She said the shame I feel. And she said the shame I feel saying that to you who's just lost her pregnancy. I remember feeling not good enough and obviously my body isn't good enough and I I got a test results back because after the surgery they did a histology report and it took a while to get those results back because the first set was inconclusive so I had to wait longer. The response was there were it was a non-molar abnormalities with my baby. So then I was like I made something wrong. That was something I made and it was abnormal.
Speaker 3:So the shame kicked in so we're having a very somber moment right now, but people would have just heard shouting of cheer in the background, and there is no shame in the game as a result of that.
Speaker 1:I wasn't sure if you heard it, so I tried to cut off my reaction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that was great. England is playing in the semifinal against the Netherlands right now and your partner, Tom is currently watching the game. My guess is that England just went up the score.
Speaker 1:I'm going to assume.
Speaker 3:I'm going to assume that that's what just happened To be clear he's very supportive of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he is, he's very happy with me having these conversations. He's just not a public speaker and he's here for me all the way.
Speaker 3:And he's watching his national team one game away from the Eurofinals and most likely they just went up a score against the Netherlands. So I just want to explain that shout of jubilation, because it certainly was not from me and it was not from you.
Speaker 1:It's embarrassment, not shame, that I'm feeling. Just to be clear, I was very embarrassed oh yeah, no, no need to be embarrassed.
Speaker 3:Let me just name the value of the conversation that we're having. Again, I'll say this is a podcast primarily focused on the dad's experience of loss to miscarriage. The value of this conversation and our first chat is that we are getting an insight as men. We are getting an insight into your psyche as a woman, because these aren't necessarily things that a woman might say to her male partner right away. These thoughts, these feelings, these these emotional, emotionally charged sentiments are not something that might necessarily be talked about or said in the immediacy of a loss to miscarriage.
Speaker 3:And I know for my wife it took her a while to finally reveal some of those things to me opened my eyes to the struggle that she was experiencing, the way that she was perceiving herself, the way that she was perceiving her body, the way that she was perceiving her at the time inability to carry a pregnancy through and those had deep implications for her. There's something that she said to me that I'll never forget and I remember when she said it to me I just felt this deep sadness inside of me because here is yet another thing added to her plate that I can't do anything about as her husband and as a man. There are times when those conversations are just so impossible to have because of the nature of the relationship between that man and that woman. Right, I'm not going to assume that every single person who hears this podcast and who hears this conversation is in a supportive relationship with their partner. I will also say that perhaps a relationship may experience an incredible amount of turbulence because some of those feelings are bubbling underneath and the way that that woman perceives herself has changed, and as the man, I can't do anything about it. And that's just the way she feels and that's just the way she sees herself. And for as many times as the man could say to the woman how beautiful she is and how valuable she is and how incredible she is and how it's not her fault and all of the affirming things that he could possibly say, if he's a supportive male partner, if that's what she feels and if that's the way she sees herself, if that's the reflection that looks back at her when she looks in the mirror, it's as if none of those things have much weight or value to begin with, because that's just a personal, internal thing that she is dealing with.
Speaker 3:So the fact that you are peeling back the curtain to help me and to help other men get a glimpse of some of the things that may be happening in the minds of their female partner is valuable beyond anything that I can compare it to. You're opening that window to show that, once that event happens, once you've experienced that loss to miscarriage whether it be one or whether it be multiple your life is never the same as the life that you had prior to that. And from your perspective as a woman sharing aspects of how you perceiving yourself and your body, you know that bit that you just said about. You know you produce something that was, that was what defective or something that was and like.
Speaker 3:Those are really strong words. As a male friend, I could say to you Elspeth is not like you didn't do that. You know Tom could say that to you honey, it's, it was not you, you know. So it doesn't matter necessarily, because that's the connection that you have with that thought and with that feeling. So thank you for again choosing to be so public about these very vulnerable and raw emotions that you're feeling.
Speaker 1:I mean thank you for having me to let me speak about it, because I mean other than, obviously, maybe my mom, my siblings and tom know, when he is, that people who know and will say, will say anything to make you feel better, and the platitudes and the affirmations will only do so much before you want to tell them that doesn't help. But you, I don't want to say that to hurt that. I don't want to hurt their feelings because that's not fair for me to lash out at them. Who are those who are just trying to make me feel better.
Speaker 1:I got that piece of news on set. I stepped off to take the phone call and I was sat just around the corner from where two different units were filming two very different scenes. You know, hundreds of people are all in that building working very hard and I was sat on a pavement getting a piece of news that the word she used was the reason your little one didn't survive was because they were non-molar abnormalities. And that doesn't mean you can't. That doesn't mean it'll happen again. That doesn't mean you can't. That doesn't mean it will happen again. That doesn't mean you know that you'll have trouble conceiving again. But that's what was wrong this time, but that was what was wrong and it was abnormal and it was mine. So those are the only words I heard. Those are the only words I heard.
Speaker 3:England just scored again. Probably now they're up 3-1.
Speaker 1:I think maybe I should carry on saying the really sad things, because that's what's linking to England getting the goals. If anyone's suspicious, I think maybe Gareth Southgate should give me a call, or I could keep spewing sadness I do see a correlation here, so yeah, honestly, the juxtaposition of life, isn't it really?
Speaker 1:I was sat on a set getting the sadness and saddest news and there were people that were actually working their butts off, doing their best work. I'm sat here telling you that I felt like I'd made. Whatever I'd made was not good enough, and England are probably playing the best game of their life. I think somebody else across the way has also heard it there you go. I'm in a block of flats and somebody else is having a good time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1:But that's how amazing this little world is, isn't it really?
Speaker 3:It's all on a knife's edge, isn't it? I think that's one of the biggest realizations that I've had, being in this space and having the conversations that I've had and also working in the setting in which I work it's all on a knife's edge. That is where life is lived. The difference between where you are and where somebody else is it's not that far away. The difference between shedding tears of happiness and joy and elation and excitement and sharing tears of sorrow and despair and desesperation or desperation. Did I just say desesperation? I? Did.
Speaker 3:Wow, I just made up a word. It's a nice word, it's got a good rhythm. Desesperation Did I just say desesperation?
Speaker 1:I did. Wow, I just made up a word. It's a nice word. It's got a good rhythm, desperation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, at least for me. I find it that it's a sobering place to stay and try to live my life, not trying to exclude myself from the highs of the highs or the lows of the lows, yet in every moment just sort of taking a step back and realizing not that I want anything to change for the worse if it's better, and also understanding that when it's worst, not falling into the temptation that it's not going to get better. So, yeah, here we are having this really important conversation. England is playing the greatest game of their lives.
Speaker 3:Apparently, tom is having the time of his life watching England play the greatest game of their lives and then afterwards he will have it in him, I suppose, to come and check in and say, hey, how did it go? And completely forget that England had played the greatest game of their lives and may not even bring up the football match and just be totally attuned to whatever it is. You respond to him in that moment and give you the support that you need, and so far and so forth. So let's not paint Tom as this horrible human being, because he's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he is far from a horrible human being. He works very hard and he doesn't watch football religiously, so it's only because England are playing, and when this is over, we'll return to being nerdy people watching sci-fi on the sofa together.
Speaker 3:But today he can have it. I do want to give you an opportunity to talk about the aspect of the conversation that we didn't get to the last time, because I think that's also important to bring to the table. So, after you've had your miscarriage now that raises the question what is the next step? So let's pick up the story from the team. Left you in the room with your mom you had already phoned Tom and they get back in the room to talk to you about the several options was happening.
Speaker 1:My body was. I'm still pregnant, I'm carrying on. They said there were four options available to me, which included waiting for it to happen, naturally, but that could take a couple weeks.
Speaker 1:They have to check that obviously everything's gone, so I might even have to have surgery anyway even if your body just naturally does they might still have to go in and get what was left, because they say it only 50 percent of the time works and only 80% of the material goes. And oh, so you have all those statistics, but you can't give me statistics about, like, how to prevent the miscarriage. But you can give me all the statistics about the aftercare okay, it's me getting really defensive in that moment medication to trigger the miscarriage and they would send me home, but then I'd still have to come back, just in case surgery which would have been under anesthesia. They can book me in two days. I'd come in in the morning, be out in the afternoon and then the same procedure, but awake, which I thought was insane. I was. There are reasons for why people would need to do that. But, um, I thought that was crazy and for me, I think I just knew that I needed it to be handled quickly. I couldn't go home and wait. I couldn't. I couldn't go home just to come back. I couldn't. I didn't want to have to. I didn't want to have to deal with the the emotional trauma of that but then also having to physically see what was going to happen.
Speaker 1:I was talking to my sister, she who had a miscarriage and she said hers happened at work. And then she went to hospital and I said I could not imagine having this happen to me at home, let alone in a public place, and then to actually have physically seen, seen it happening to me I think I don't know public place, and then to actually have physically seen, seen it happening to me, I think I don't know how I would have handled that at all. So I chose the surgery and I went in that morning. My mum was with me and I think I reverted right to like my shy, like almost like first day at school, like I didn't. I barely made eye contact with anyone. I was holding my mum's hand, I just was so inwardly focused and I'd never been under anesthesia before. So I was desperate to know what that was going to be like. And they just said you'll take some deep breaths and then you'll fall asleep, you'll be fine. I couldn't. That did that make no sense to me. I was like that's witchcraft. You're lying, it's going to be more complicated.
Speaker 1:I remember so distinctly being taken to pre-op to have all of the things put in my body, and it was all men in the room. Then this man asks me you have to say your name or date of birth and why you're there, and I didn't know the exact surgery I was in for. I just had to say surgical management for miscarriage. They said, okay, well, we've got um, we're bringing a nurse in to be with you. But he said it was for safety reasons. So essentially we're all men, we need to have another woman in the room.
Speaker 1:But actually I didn't care that there were all men in the room, I just wanted a woman in the in the room, because the second I made eye contact with her she was sat on the other side of the room and she she was waiting, she was watching as they were obviously putting the cannula in my arm. And as soon as I looked over at her and I I must have like beamed I'm, I'm scared at her she came right over, she grabbed my other hand and she stroked my hair and she said you're gonna be fine, it's gonna be okay. And then she didn't take, she didn't stop holding my hand. That's all I know, because I had someone telling me to think about somewhere warm and peaceful. And then I woke up again and there was somebody else holding my hand and stroking my hair saying hello, you're okay, you're going to be fine, and I burst into tears.
Speaker 1:Waking up knowing it was gone was really it's hard to describe, unless you've been under anesthesia and you know what that's like waking up somewhere, a bit kind of confused.
Speaker 3:but then add on top of that, you know that something's been taken from you as well and then I remember you telling me that even after the surgical management for your miscarriage, your body hadn't quite caught up to what was happening.
Speaker 1:No. So I went home for two weeks. They give you a list of what to look out for if you need to come back, but you need to take a pregnancy test in three weeks, they sort of said. It's just to make sure. It will indicate whether there might be anything left behind. It will give us an indication of what your hormones are doing. So I've had two weeks at home in quite a lot of pain, dealing with whatever my body wants to throw at me each day, whatever my emotions want to throw at me each day. I have a week on holiday with tom and then I have to get up and take a pregnancy test and I'm actually just wishing for it to say it's negative, because I know that I can carry on and get on with healing.
Speaker 1:And it's positive and I call my mom and I'm like it's positive, it's not. And I remember saying I just want this to be over, I'm tired and I want it to be over. But now I have to call the early pregnancy unit. Now I have to go back and I had to go back into the ultrasound room Again, have someone scan me and invade your body.
Speaker 3:Basically.
Speaker 1:So triggering. I remember just bursting into tears as soon as the ultrasound machine was anywhere near me. I was just like I can't, I can't deal with this anymore and I had to have blood tests and the consultant said there is still something. There is something there, but it's something that your body will manage on its own. It's nothing I'm concerned about. We'll see what your blood tests say.
Speaker 1:My blood test came back and said that my pregnancy hormone was still really high. So I have to go back in a week to have another pregnancy, another set of blood tests and I go back in a week. Second set of blood tests, still high, come back in a week. So now it's what? Week five heading into week six. It's just like I'm constantly being battered with this and on top of that I'm trying to go to work and I'm trying to buy food and Tom and I are trying to find somewhere else to live and that's when arguments start because I'm Tom's carrying on, he's getting on with things and he's trying to be positive and you know, and I'm trying to put the brakes on everything.
Speaker 1:What if I don't get another job? And what if I'm not good enough to get another job? What if I'm not good enough? What if I don't have enough money because I don't have a job, because I'm not good enough?
Speaker 3:and I know this is all coming from the fact that my hormones are still all over the place and also from you, maybe even believing that the reason why the pregnancy did not last is because you're not good enough, because my body's not good enough, because your body's not good enough.
Speaker 1:And then when I finally got the blood test done on the sixth week was when I got the soldier report back that said my, it was interesting. She never called it a baby. She kept calling it my little one and I don't know whether that was because she was trying to protect me from calling it a baby or whether because of medically, the size suggesting there wasn't a heartbeat. It wasn't. Was it a fetus or not. You know the parameters of the medical terminal, I don't know, but she never called it a baby. The reason your little one didn't survive was because of non-murder abnormalities.
Speaker 3:It's interesting because when you said that the first time, I took her saying little one, as this very soft empathic way of expressing, you know, some kind of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, being really gentle. Yeah, being really gentle, yeah, being really gentle, but it was the only person who'd ever done it, not not any of the consultants, nurses. Nobody said that they thought they know. I don't think anyone ever said baby other than the baby doesn't have a heartbeat, but no one ever said anything like no, almost nobody identified it or put a name to it. She was the first one that did and I remember that really shook me, but also because my mom calls me little one as well.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow, okay, so there's a double thing going on.
Speaker 1:I didn't know if her calling it little one helped me or made it worse. It was just the whole thing was just sort of. And then finally, after that third blood test, my hormone levels are normal.
Speaker 3:And I remember what you mentioned the last time we spoke with all of this that you're feeling, imagining that Tom would come to you and want to have a moment of intimacy, whether it be kissing or foreplay or just straight on like let's, let's have sex, it's. It's a difficult thing for you to have to get engaged in at that time, at this time, because your relationship to your body has been severely impacted yeah, like outwardly, nothing has changed.
Speaker 1:I may have gained a bit of weight, but nothing has changed. But inside I was betrayed and everything is different. Even I think there's also the physical trauma that comes with it as well. Not all that. Ultrasounds are from the outside. Some of them are internal, and then my surgery was an internal surgery. Something was inside my body. Yeah, affecting the inside of my body, and I think sometimes, um, sex for women, from my opinion, is actually quite a brutal act when you consider what is actually occurring for men. It's not quite a brutal act when you consider what is actually occurring For men it's not quite so brutal because we got the instruments.
Speaker 1:You have the instruments. We are the vessel.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And what occurs to us is actually physically very demanding.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:No matter how gentle you think you may be, it is very physically demanding for us. Add on top of that that I've had instruments put inside me at my most vulnerable instruments put inside me seconds before I get terrible news. Yeah. Put inside me, to have things suctioned out of my body. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I've had to have an instrument put back inside me again to reconfirm that I'm not pregnant anymore. I may not be quite so eager and ready to have something else put inside my body To be clear for my very loving supporting boyfriend. He was very patient and loving and not once made me feel like I was depriving him of anything.
Speaker 3:So, again, I want to draw attention to the value of your vulnerability and your transparency and your boldness and courage and speaking about these things publicly with me, because these are the things that you all go through, that we as men, unless we have explicit knowledge of it, might not be something that we intuit ourselves, and it's not because we don't care and it's not because of any of those things. You don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I found that everyone who's reached out and said how brave I've been is it almost as if I didn't want to talk about it and that somehow you pried it from me. My response has always been talking for me.
Speaker 1:Talking about it has been more helpful than anything else yeah because we're talking three days after it have, after the surgery, there was a huge family reunion at my house and my cousin brought almost fresh out of the box like a three month old and there was an element of you can see my mom saying, if this is too much, you can just step away, and I was like, no, I'm okay and that's. And in the end my cousin told me you know her stories and talking about it helped and I also got to cuddle this very cute little boy and it made me feel really good. At the same time, in that room with all my family, I'm the only one going through this at this very moment. So it was still very lonely and I'm, like I said, big family. For two weeks I was surrounded by family and being taken care of, but I was very alone because at that moment I'm going through it alone.
Speaker 1:So talking about it has been, honestly, the best for me.
Speaker 1:It helps me get the tears out that I can't, that I don't know where, that I can't get out any other way when I feel them coming, that I'm I don't know where to put them.
Speaker 1:If I talk about it and they come, then I feel better and honestly I just I if I I don't imagine sitting at home on my own, keeping it to myself, protecting others from their discomfort, would make me feel any better about it and in the same, in the same token, having spoken to you about it and been on a podcast and being open with people when I feel it's right, it's funny how now the conversations appearing in my world more often, or it's on the on my instagram feed, for example, my boyfriend told me that um, one of the gb hockey team spoke about a miscarriage on the news, and so there it was this.
Speaker 1:This sports personality is talking about her miscarriage so openly in public and saying how important it was that she spoke about it so that the 16 teammates that she has the odds are one in four of her 16 teammates is probably going to go through the same thing and she thought it was so important that she voiced it so that if any one of her teammates heaven forbid had the same thing, they knew they could speak to her and knew that it was safe and common.
Speaker 3:I think that's a good place for us to land our conversation. I just want to say one last time how incredibly thankful and grateful I am for your I'm not going to say bravery, because it's not that you don't want to talk about it, but you have spoken about it with a sincerity, a boldness, a passion, a transparency, a lot of emotion, a rawness that brings me and listeners right up to and into your personal space, and the fact that you've made room to accommodate me and all of us in your space cannot be understated me and all of us in your space cannot be understated.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome and thank you very much for letting me share it and hopefully give some insight into what is a very messy emotional space that your partners are all living in, but they still love you. Even if they don't sound like they do, they do all still love you. They'll come back. I know I'm gonna come back. All still love you. They'll come back. I know I'm going to come back from it. I'm sure they'll come back too. You.
