The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E32: Fathers & The Emotional Scars of Miscarriage (ft. Alex Ortiz, Jeff Collins, Augusta Foster - Rereleased)
Welcome to episode 32!
This week I am re-releasing a conversation first aired on the Welcome To Fatherhood podcast where, along with Alex Ortiz, Jeff Collins, and Augusta Foster, we explore our own emotional journeys dealing with the profound loss of our children to miscarriage. Through raw and heartfelt stories, we uncover the deep impact miscarriage has on fathers, emphasizing the importance of vulnerability and providing a space for men to share their experiences openly. This episode is a testament to the strength found in shared sorrow and the resilience fathers show in balancing loss and joy.
From reflections on raising children while grappling with the memory of a miscarriage, to the bittersweet moments of welcoming a new child amidst grief, we paint a vivid picture of the multifaceted nature of fatherhood along this journey. We discuss societal and familial pressures, personal failures, and the daunting expectations men face in their roles as providers and protectors. Augusta Foster’s poignant narrative about the struggle to reconcile faith with life’s unpredictability adds another layer to understanding the emotional labyrinth of miscarriage.
In our candid conversation, we delve into the emotional burden of being the primary support in a family, the pressures of fulfilling personal and societal expectations, and the significance of genuine connections in coping with loss. Listen as we discuss the importance of community support, the need for sincere gestures of kindness, and the challenges men face in expressing grief. Through our stories, we aim to offer comfort and a sense of solidarity to anyone navigating the complex emotions tied to miscarriage and fatherhood.
Sincerely,
Kelly
Instagram: @themiscarriagedad
Email: themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
Make sure you subscribe!
Write us a review!
Show Music
Do Do Do Do Not by Fantoms
Polymath & Many Worlds by Memory Theory
Hi there, my name is Kelly and I'm the host of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. Just a quick word about the episode that you are about to hear today. This episode first aired January 25th 2023 on another podcast called the Welcome to Fatherhood Podcast. Around the time of this recording, I began exploring how miscarriage impacts men. This is going to take us back in time almost two years now, when I first started talking about my experience publicly. You will hear from Alex Ortiz, from Jeff Collins and from Augusta Foster, so I hope this conversation gives you a sense of how important, impactful and powerful it is for men to gather together to tell our own version of the emotional scars that we carry as a result of our partner's miscarriage. No-transcript. So, just to start off, my name is Kelly Jean-Philippe, I host the Welcome to Fatherhood podcast, and the conversation that we're going to have between the four of us today is something that has become of interest to me because of personal experience and also as a light bulb that went off in my head, realizing that I don't think, as far as I'm concerned, I know of a space where these conversations, or this conversation specifically, is happening. We're going to talk about our individual experiences with a very unfortunate event, which is supporting a partner, a spouse, through a miscarriage. What I don't want us to do is to focus solely on how we were supporting our partner or our spouse. What I do want us to do is to talk explicitly about how we were also experiencing something to that magnitude within our context. So that's the groundwork for our conversation. You know, we live in an era where it's really difficult to really say anything transparently and openly without offending anyone, and so I want to honor that and say that in our conversation, nothing that we say to each other is meant to offend the other person. What I do want us to be mindful of is to respect each other's experiences, and we can comment on each other's experiences, because that's what the conversation is going to be about, and though we might disagree on some things who knows, I don't know what the conversation is going to be like let's disagree in a way that continues to honor the humanity and the experience that we all share, because we're all here for this particular purpose. And the other thing that I want to say, which is, lastly, is let's go as deep as the group is willing to go and as you're willing to go individually. I'm wearing a sweater that says black men have feelings. So if you, just, you know, block out the, the black part, men have feelings. Ok, and so, without getting all mushy and gushy and all of that stuff, what I'm asking us to do as men, is to portray an image of manhood that is not often portrayed, which is men being vulnerable, men being able to access their feelings, man being able to put their feelings on the table in front of other men and trust each other with the experiences that we've undergone. So those are the rules. This is the mission, should you choose to accept it and you have, because you're here and um. So I'll start off with my experience. Man, um, like I said, my name is Kelly.
Speaker 2:I live in Philadelphia, pennsylvania. I am 37 years old. I've been married for four and a half years to my beautiful wife, julius Camillo. He is that's his whole first name. By the way, people think my son's name is Julius. It's not Julius, it's Julius Camillo. He is two and a half. He has the stamina, the spirit, the energy, the intelligence of like a 12 year old. So he is just that type of kid. He is just that type of kid, and getting to him has been a journey.
Speaker 2:We are currently expecting our second child, another boy, due March of 2023. And so getting to him has been yet another journey. So, in between both of these gifts, of these boys that I've been gifted, that my wife and I have been gifted, reflecting on this journey of conception, of getting a child, of trying again for a sibling, and going through the valleys of a miscarriage again and not being elated, that we're anticipating our baby, with all of the emotions that come with it, all of the emotions that come with it. Reflecting on that whole journey, I don't think I'm able to really put succinctly into words what all of my feelings have been whether or not I've coped with things in a responsible way or in the right way. I have no idea.
Speaker 2:So this is going to be a process of discovery for me, talking to you guys, but what I can say is that I have noticed a growth in the ways that I was able to be in tune with myself and be in tune with my wife at the times that we were going through all of that stuff. So this is the larger context by which I you are meeting me today. For those of you who are meeting me for the first time, and those of you who I've had some connection with before, namely Alex and Augusta. This is a part of me that you are now aware of. So this is where I'm at right now. I'm going to stop and then let you guys go ahead and give your own versions of an introduction, if you will, and then we'll just keep, just keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm, uh, jeffrey collins. I'm from auto ontario, canada. Um, so, yeah, I was saying to kelly earlier that I think my experience will be a bit different, just with, like, the healthcare system here too. Um, I too have a toddler. She's two and a half now and, like you, she has the mind of a 12-year-old. Her brain is so much further ahead than her body can be, so she gets so frustrated when she can't do the things that she knows she can.
Speaker 1:Incredible to have someone so vibrant, so full of life. After you know, our first try was a miscarriage, you know. So it is really quite impactful to go through such a huge letdown and such a huge trauma, to have someone on the other side who's just nothing but pure sunshine, you know, nothing but a ray of light. So it was, I guess, about three and a half years ago that we had our miscarriage, and I I too don't know if I dealt with it well, but it took a long time. It took over a year for us to really figure out ways around it, ways through it, and kind of let it gab over like a wound on the tree and and grow past that.
Speaker 4:So my name is Augusta Foster. Me and brother Kelly have had this conversation before. Like I said, glad to be in this space. I was getting Augusta Foster. Everybody calls me the neighborhood hope dealer.
Speaker 4:I grew up in South Central California, mostly Long Beach, san Pedro, along the water. I've lived a very, very interesting life. One day I'll write the book, but I'm a father of five. Whenever I break down my children, I never differentiate my oldest daughter, who I've been active in her life and present in her father since she was three and a half months old. I never tell people you know I have four natural kids and that, no, it's just. It's just my whole gang. It's my entire basketball team of children and I grouped them all together because they all share my name. They're all a part of my legacy.
Speaker 4:No one gets more preferential treatment. Everyone gets the same amount of love. As often as I could provide it and as much as I could pour into them, I would say if there is, you know, people will ask you who's your favorite child, and most of us, if you have more than one, we try to lie to ourselves and say, oh, I don't have a favorite, but I have a daughter who my mother affectionately refers to, as she calls her, the light skinned version of me, because she looks like me, she smiles like me, she has the humor of me, her mannerisms, her thoughts and even some of the things I'm not very fond of that I'd done in the past and how I'd lived before I progressed is things that I see in her now. But she's the first successfully born natural child that I'd had after having a miscarriage with my ex-wife. So there's always that feeling of like, even the way how Jeff described it, like how you look at this child and they're so vibrant and full of life and I never really took into account that, as somebody who now has, you know, five children but has birthed four, I never really even thought about looking at them and taking into account, like there's, I could have six, like I sometimes I forget because it's been over, it's been almost a decade.
Speaker 4:But even like when this conversation came about, I was like I never think about it, but I look at her and there are moments once in a while, specifically on her birthdays and on the anniversary of the miscarriage, where I think like what, if? What could have been? You know what, what would have, what would have been my other son or daughter. So I think I look at her and it's you know the fact that we were in the position of it and and early in, and had names picked out and clothes purchased and it told everyone and we, you know, to sit up and having to take all that stuff and not return it, just literally just throw it away. But now to like, look at all of my kids and just it's, it's a blessing to be able to add on from a tragedy to the feeling of triumph, of fatherhood, like it really. It really is man.
Speaker 3:Hey guys, thanks for having me. My name is Alex Ortiz. I live in the Philadelphia area and known Kelly for many years. We attended the same church a while back. Now we bump into each other every once in a while, so it's a great thing For me. The way that this story hits home is I'm married. I've been married for 22 years and our first five to seven, our first few years, we were just more like hey, let's enjoy each other, let's take our time.
Speaker 3:We were in that kind of planning family mode, if that makes sense, right, where it's like we don't want to jump into it. We came from, you know, families where kids came out early, you know, and so we were like, listen, let's try and like, establish ourselves, get a nice place, get our, you know, get our careers in order, and then let's start, you know, having a family and it was an interesting thing. I don't regret it at all. But, you know, having a family and it was an interesting thing, I don't regret it at all. But what happened was that we had some difficulty having children, you know, and at first we had some difficulty, but ultimately we were blessed with my first son, with my son AJ, who's now 15 or is going to be 15 next week. But after having him, you know, we wanted to continue to grow our family. You know, in our design, right In our plan, we wanted to have more kids. My, my wife, was and is an amazing mother Like I can't even describe it, you know, um and so we were excited to have the opportunity to have more kids and give her the opportunity to be a blessing to more kids, and I believe I'm an amazing father. But when you look at the other side of this, it would be a great opportunity for her to have just as many kids as possible.
Speaker 3:So we tried for about seven years and didn't have any more luck. And my upbringing was that I wasn't the only child until about 10. My parents were divorced and I had a brother with a different mother and a sister with a different father, if that makes sense. So in a way, I was an only child for a big portion of my childhood and I always said to myself when I become a father, I want to have a huge family. I envisioned those Christmas and Thanksgiving celebrations on a big giant table, fighting over Cheerios, things like that. But seven years had gone by and we didn't have any luck. And so we gave up on the idea and we were like, oh wow, what a blessing though we have AJ, right, we have one child and many people don't have any, right. And so we wanted to count our blessings.
Speaker 3:But then suddenly we found out in December of 2015 that we were, that my wife was pregnant again and we were going to announce it at my birthday party. We had family coming over for my birthday and we would have been about nine weeks on at that point, and that's when we had the miscarriage and my wife suffered a miscarriage literally the weekend before my birthday, and it was such a last moment that we couldn't cancel it and everybody was going to be there, right, but? And so my wife was distraught, but we didn't tell anybody why. So it was the most awkward birthday party ever for me, you know, and that's that's really it.
Speaker 3:We, we, we struggle to kind of deal with it, her and her way, me in my way. I think. Sometimes us men we try to solve problems in a different way. We can be black and white and we want to just move forward and keep climbing up the mountain, but my wife was in a place where she wanted to kind of sit in that valley for a little bit and really feel it. So we struggled with that and it was a tough experience and I look forward to digging in further with you guys.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:In the interest of full transparency. I'm really fighting back tears right now after just listening to all of you guys' experience, because this is obviously something that none of us wanted to experience. So I guess the first topic that I want us to explore is to talk about a little bit when we got together with our partners, our spouse. What were the dreams, what were the aspirations? What were the Alex you said envisioning Christmas and Thanksgiving big, large table. What were the aspirations? What were the Alex you said envisioning Christmas and Thanksgiving big, large table.
Speaker 4:I mean the uh. I had four children, uh, with my ex-wife. So I mean already speaking to that alone, no one plans on going into a marriage to fail and end up divorced. So initially it was and I think it's from from speaking in the group on the, I think I'm the only stepdad in here For me it was.
Speaker 4:It was somewhat of an awkward feeling because I whirlwind relationship, fall in love, adopt my daughter, give her my name. But there's that itching feeling where, like you know, as you know you, everyone around you, you got to have one of your own, you have one of your children. And that, where it wasn't really a pressure on me, but I could see my wife at the time, it was a lot of pressure on her from a lot of the women in the family. You have to give that man a child of his own, a child of his own. So I think there was a lot of you know, in watching her and her movements and her attitude and the movements. It was a lot of pressure on her to do something that people almost made her feel obligated to do, like you have to give him a child. For me it wasn't as if, like I was doing. I just was, I was fine, I was like I could just have one kid, like my mother was 11 of 12, even always knew I wanted a lot of kids. You know, after having one for like seven months, I was like, whew, this is man, this work, this is this is this is tough. This isn't uncle godfather job where I could just like send them back home. It just was so much. But then it was okay. Well, now I settled in with I could have a child of you know, quote, unquote, my own.
Speaker 4:So, going into it and and all right, we're going to have this one. And, like I said, we had names picked out. I remember we sat up for nights on end picking out names, you know, and it was okay If it was going to be a boy, this was going to be a boy. And I kept saying I was like you know, I had a dream and it was. You know it's, it's going to be a boy. So we have this boy name and this boy clothes and I'm, I sat up, I painted a room, putting together like every, everything, everything was prepared. And you know, you do these announcements, you get ready for a baby shower, and that was all of the. That was all of the plans.
Speaker 4:But you know, even to how Alex said earlier, that was that was our plan, our, our plan, you know, at times very much differs from the plan that God has for you and in the moment, you know even to say into that afterwards, as somebody who's extremely, extremely has gotten back, being big, into their faith. The thing I always think back in that moment was it was difficult to hear people go. You know God's going to work it out, it's going to be all right. I'm like I don't want to hear that right now, bro Like I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm hurting, I'm in pain. I did everything right. And even moving from that like, even now, like thinking about it still like bugs me because it's the conversations of. It's going to be okay, it's all right. But that that looking at the perfect Disney movie future and then sitting up questioning what the hell did you do wrong or what did you do to deserve this?
Speaker 1:My wife and I were both divorced at the time. So when we met, like first date, it was like do you want kids? Do you want kids? You know, like right out the gate, because we both left our previous partners because they just decided they didn't want to have kids anymore. You know, like being in a relationship with someone for 10 years and then one day they're like I don't think that's for me. And you're like, well, we got married on the, you know, understanding that we want to go into that. So first date, yeah, we just like cleared the air, like do you want this? I'm not wasting your time, don't waste my time. And yeah, you know, we were like dreaming big, we felt very romantic, we really like got swept up in the honeymoon phase. We wanted five kids. And then, you know, as time went on, we kind of realized that two kids would probably be best, because we didn't want to get like outnumbered.
Speaker 1:And I've always wanted to have kids, like ever since I was conscious. Really, I used to run our summer camp so I was like I'm going to be fine with it, I'm going to be great. I've got all this energy. I know all these games. You know it's not until you start trying to have kids, do you realize that it's really work to try. You know like it's it doesn't come easily sometimes. Sometimes it takes, uh, several cycles before something will catch. And those moments of hope where you're like, oh, the period is late, it's not, you know, and like you get your hopes up really high with that and that will let you down. And then finally, when one does, you're like you know, all of your energy goes into that and we were telling people. I think a few weeks into it I was like, oh well, it's not 12 weeks yet. You know, I'm telling people, I'm telling people at work, I'm just getting so excited Because I am sure that it's going to stick. Yeah, so there was a lot of hope on that first one Because we were older at that point.
Speaker 1:We were in our late 20s when we met and we just like fast-tracked our lives. We just like we met three months later, moved in A year, we were married. Next year we were already trying to have kids. So it was just hard for the universe to tell us to slow down. You know it was hard for us to get everything else. You know like we're putting in the energy and the time and the investments to get everything else set up. You know, the house, the car, the job, just for the universe to pump the brakes on us in the most devastating way possible.
Speaker 2:You said something there, Jeff, that serves as sort of as kind of a trigger for me. I don't know who to this day I can't pinpoint who was the one who said this to me but in setting expectations and talking about expectations, someone had said to me that don't be surprised if the first one doesn't stick In those exact words.
Speaker 1:I wish, like in sex ed, you know they were like just so you know, 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriages Like if I was in high school and I heard that I would be holding on to that information into my 30s, you know. But in sex ed you just get the basics, you just get how to conceive what it's like to go through a pregnancy, and that's it. And there was no talk about any of the struggles or any of the pitfalls. I'm like this is basic science. Like why am I not learning this then? Why do I have to rely on people who have or had not had these experiences? Like my mother had not experienced any miscarriages but my wife's mother did, and she didn't even find out until we had a miscarriage.
Speaker 4:because it's just like it's so taboo to talk about that people weren't telling their kids I was gonna say jeffrey, saying that man, it's wild that you say that, because when the miscarriage occurred it was, you know, people from church and family, and all of this. One of the first people to well, not one of the first, let me change that One of the last people to really be fully honest with me was my own mother. And me and my mom are tight. We look alike, move alike. All of my children, my youngest daughter we refer to her as tiny Pam because she's a spitting image of my mother and it was maybe about two weeks after and for three days I didn't leave the house, I didn't go to work, I was AWOL from work. I was absent without leave. Although I'm not going in, I'm cool, I just want to sit in my little box. I just want to like drink my little liquor. I don't know how to heal properly yet. I'm just going to sit here and just be in the dark and mope to myself and not be a good support mate to my wife. My mother, like I and I never knew, she said you know, y'all will work through this and this.
Speaker 4:And I remember being upset and ask, like telling my mother you know out of my mouth, say you know like what? What do you know? And she stood there and said you know, you were my first successful child. I had five miscarriages before you were born. I never knew that, bro. Like it took me to go through that for my own mother. So here in this moment where I was like hurt, I said you were like you could have, but it was to. Kelly is so taboo, like, oh, we're not going to have this conversation. But it took my mother, seeing me in a point of like absolute depression, to be like all right, your niece, your cousin to be at their lowest moment, because all of us in here were low when it happened, because I can speak for me.
Speaker 4:It was a feeling and a spirit of failure on me that was hard to get off. It shouldn't have to come to that for somebody to be transparent enough, specifically your parent, to be like, look, this is what I did. I went through that. But it was in that moment my mother being like this is more work than you think. Y'all not the first, y'all not the last ones. You were my sixth child technically and I sat there and was, yeah, it takes a lot, it's more than you know. Wham bam. Thank you, ma'am. See you in nine and a half months. You know, like how they told us in health class, which clearly Canada and America are handshaking on that foolishness with their education wise.
Speaker 3:Alex, anything you want to add? Yeah, just in terms of, you know what I was envisioning, you know, I already mentioned that I was kind of envisioning those big, you know. You know, um, I already mentioned that I was kind of envisioning those big.
Speaker 3:You know christmas, big thanksgiving, but the other thing was in my mind I literally, like, was so arrogant that I had it planned out like I'm gonna have a girl, one daughter and two twin boys and I had, you know, alternating names for the boys in my head and there was a certain level of just arrogance walking into it. And maybe arrogance isn't the right word, maybe it's just ignorance, right, and just not understanding or maybe not accepting that something bad like that could happen to me and my wife. You know what I'm saying. You know, and I think I visualize things more than my wife did. She came from a tough upbringing. There was a lot of just, you know, hurt, and so for her she was more, like you know, grateful for anything Right, whereas I'm like, well, shoot, I deserve this.
Speaker 3:And when it didn't happen, I looked at God and I was angry and annoyed with him and pissed off at him and I let him know, not in front of people, not even in front of my wife. I went in the shower that was my secret spot when I'm taking a long 40-minute shower. My wife's like you still in there and I was crying and yelling and screaming and mad at him because you made me wait seven years and then you're going to just not see us through on this, my wife, the perfect mother that she is, and me I think I'm a great father you won't give us a chance. And so I was mad. And then I looked around and the thing that was insulting to me was people who had no right having kids, having multiples and just popping it out, and no safe household and no show man. That part, it killed me and I would turn and look to the side and be like and guys, I mean, is this the right way to think? No, right, we all know what we did.
Speaker 2:Right, but we did.
Speaker 3:And I'm willing to admit that. I looked to my left and I looked to my right and I said, god, you're going to give that fool another child, but you won't give me and my wife a child.
Speaker 2:You know, you know what's most upsetting, bro? Seeing people who had kids and then like, right after they, got pregnant again and then right after that they got pregnant again and I'm I'm like, hold on, man, wait a minute.
Speaker 4:Like I know this person, like I'm not saying I'm perfect but if I could, but if you could point out somebody imperfect, it was them.
Speaker 3:Like listen when you, when you have neglected kids already, but yet they're being gifted additional kids.
Speaker 2:I'm like what are they doing that I'm not doing? Like, do I have to go that route so that I can get a kid that?
Speaker 1:was huge. I saw people who have no respect for their children having kids, people in my family. I'm like man, why, why do you have four, um, and why? Why is it so easy for you and you have no respect for them? Like none you why do? Why do you want them? I want them. You know like I'm so emotionally prepared, right like here, here you are.
Speaker 2:here you are. You trying to do what you think is right? Right, jeff I think you said it earlier, and Alex, you alluded to that to get the job prepare the home. Augusta, here you are preparing the room. I mean, you are, you're doing everything that you think you're supposed to do, you're supposed to do, right. The approach is, you think you're having the right approach and then it's just not happening. It's just not happening. So, augusta, earlier you said that there is this feeling of failure, of personal failure, that you experience. I wonder if that's something that we've all shared and let's talk about. How is it that we've experienced that feeling of failure?
Speaker 4:it was the failure to alex's, to the thing alex, brother alex, said a while ago I, I think arrogance was the right word. I, I'll be, I'll be real with you, man, it was. I said, my mother, my mother was 11 of 12, like that. That was back in the day when they were just knocking them out. We're just having loads of kids go work the farm. You know biblical numbers of children. And I went in thinking you know, man, my grandmother, my uncles, all these men in my family they just had because no one talked about miscarriages, no one. You know, I had uncles who were Rolling Stones. This is this wife, this is your other aunt. So I'm just thinking, you know, man, I'm young, I'm handsome, you know I'm doing it. Moreover, I'm doing it the right way. Like, I've slowed down. I'm not in the streets. I've gotten married, I'm a father to a child that I didn't birth, but I'm doing everything right, man, I'm gonna get my kid. You know, let me come in here. Hey, listen, old lady, boom.
Speaker 2:All right, give me my kid the right word, precisely because of what you're describing. Is that arrogance or is that the expectation that was set? Based on what? On the evidence that we've seen 11 of 12 biblical numbers, I think?
Speaker 4:it's a little bit of both, I think it might be something confident.
Speaker 1:So, if anything, yeah, you know you're confident in your abilities, you're not arrogant, you're like I. I have the numbers, I have the data right, like historically. Yeah, this is what we do.
Speaker 4:We make, yeah, we make we pop them out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we we, we make you know.
Speaker 4:Thank, like I said, after, like I'm, I'm betting a thousand afterwards. But in that moment it was like, yeah, like this is, this is what we do. And then it doesn't happen and the mindset is all right, so you failed. It's not like, oh, it was. It was that stench and feeling of failure. I'm sitting up questioning God. I'm running through my brain like, bro, I did everything right, I did everything right, but I got partners from the neighborhood who are on baby mama number seven, who are in and out of jail. They don't have contact with the kids. They don't want contact with the kids. They don't want to be active fathers.
Speaker 2:I'm coming from third generation stepfather, where the two other men who carried this name didn't want to be active, but here I am wanting to be present and loving as a father, and this is what I get. Thank you. More succinctly, what did you feel? Like you failed at it was.
Speaker 4:It was, to a certain extent, not even as the father, because I had. I had a child, I had my. It was. I really feel like I'd let my wife down because you're doing like I said. You're doing everything honorable before God, like when I say you know people joked at my wedding. We can't believe you're getting married. I said you're really, you're not helping me right now Way to kick it off, man. I was like yeah, like way to go best man Appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Um, but the fact of like, like I've slowed down.
Speaker 4:I found a woman. I'm doing everything that you required me to do. I should get this. I deserve this because I've checked all the boxes that you told me to do. I'm paying the tithes, I'm going to church, I'm taking my kid, I'm taking my old lady, I'm feeding the homeless. I'm doing everything you've required of me. I'm doing it all and this is what I get. Like it, it was failure. Then on the, the reason I say as a part of my husband, it was because I'm supposed to do this for her, because my daughter's father wasn't ever around. To this day. We still don't know who he is. Now I'm supposed to give my daughter a sibling. I'm supposed to give my wife, who I've made an honest woman, a child. Now I'm not doing that. No, like I'm not going to see you on Sunday, bro. We're not going to be there Sunday. I'm not coming to service Sunday because it hurts and it sucks, because I've done everything that was required of meeting that purpose but also leaving a legacy.
Speaker 3:And so for me it was like I want to have children that will make a difference in this world. I want to train up children that can be difference makers, and that kind of hurt. It was a big letdown when I knew, ok, it won't happen Again. I don't want to oversee the fact that I have a child. I have a son. He's a blessing and we pour into him every single day. But I think the as men is we can be so concrete, so black and white, that we will say losing a child is not as bad because I already have a child. That's a lie, that's a mistake.
Speaker 3:I was talking with my wife about it. We're not all always happy. We're not all always sad. There's different times for us to have different emotions, and so me being sad because of a loss doesn't mean I am not grateful for my son. It's just I missed out on number two. You know what I'm saying. So for me it was. I felt let down by God. I felt like I was a letdown as a man. You know whether it had to do with sperm count or not, right? You still feel like, hey, I'm part of the formula here and and you know, and it just happened to be that it just was. There was no physical reasons why neither of us could have children. It just didn't happen, and so that's the part that I just struggled with. You know, it was tough.
Speaker 1:I do have a bit of a different perspective. I grew up in a different faith. I grew up in the Baha'i faith. It's along the Judeo-Christian line, it's another Abrahamic religion, but I don't have that same type of connection to God, as you know, a single, all-powerful being, as Christianity teaches. And there was a lot to do with individuality in the Baha'i faith. So when that happened I was less thinking like God, let me down and thinking more like you know. I messed this up. This is my fault.
Speaker 1:I took a lot of blame onto myself and the way I felt like the failure was that like I came at the actual miscarriage, scientifically Thinking like, well, you know, like we are animals, our bodies are just physiological, you know. Bags of goo, you know. And thinking like you know. And thinking like you know, like you can get the flu and then die from it or you can get the flu and then have antibodies right. So I was like very much in that headspace. But on the individuality part, I felt like I was the lodestone in our family, you know. I felt like emotionally I was there to support my wife through everything and this pulled the floor out from underneath me. I felt like a building imploding on itself and I was letting you know everyone in the building down, I was letting everyone collapse with me because I couldn't hold it up. So it was hard for me, especially someone who grew up to, you know, a divorced single mother. I was also the lodestone in that situation too. You know, I was holding my mother up for a very long time.
Speaker 1:So when this happened, I felt like I completely failed my wife and I remember when we got back from the ultrasound, I drove us home and I got in the door and I collapsed, you know, I fell to the floor and I couldn't breathe and I felt like she had to support me in that moment. Like, man, this isn't how it's supposed to go, like, that's my job, you know, and I was just like I, yeah, I felt like a cloud of smoke, you know, like I couldn't hold myself up. There was nothing tangible to me whatsoever at that time. Yeah, I mean, it did bring me back to my faith somewhat and you know I did try to pray for some guidance through it.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, but you know, not having clergy and not having a church, I didn't really have a space to go to. You know, talk about these things. So I turned to my community of friends and family which, yeah, I mean, like you know, they're all kind of my age and they're all kind of like man. That's horrible. If you need anything from me, let me know. But they hadn't experienced it yet, and some have now and like I'm kind of glad that I was the one to have experienced it, because, again, I feel like a lodestone. But when it happened to them I was like I got you, like I'm going to call you, I'm going to call you, I'm going to send you Uber Eats, I'm going to you know, you know whatever, and I like I'm there to be the support.
Speaker 3:Uh, you know, I think that that's key. You know the fact that we we all in in in our way own way found the community eventually to support us. Uh, men in general don't typically do that. We like to loan it, we like to be a lone ranger and not admit what's going on. And it happened to me for a while. My wife and I discussed it and we were like she said, you know, you really didn't, you didn't mourn at first, you didn't really feel it. It's almost like you didn't acknowledge it. And I would just encourage us, because our wives were reminded of this every 30 days or so, right, whereas we are ready to move on. Well, I'll speak for myself. I was ready to move on.
Speaker 3:I came up from a childhood that was like I needed to escape the problems. So I got busy. I started doing a lot of things, a lot of them good things, right, but good things with a bad foundation. I got, you know, I left. I was trying to escape something else and here I was in my you know, in my late thirties, doing the same thing, with my wife suffering. I was trying to move on and I was trying to, like, push forward, and I was trying to tell her, like oh, you know, aren't you blessed about what we do have? No, that answer, yeah, sure you're blessed, but we have to be real about our emotions right, and about what we're going through at the moment. And I wasn't willing to do that until, like Jeffrey was saying, he took it to that community of friends and the real time when I started to actually feel it.
Speaker 3:I told a really, really good friend of mine hey, man, we just lost a baby. And he noticed he was like something's up, what's up with you? I see something weighing on you. And I said we just lost a baby. And he came and my wife reminded me of this. But he came and he put his hand on my chest and then she said that was the first time that I really cried about it. It was crazy. We need to trust in our friends and our family and that community Not just anybody, though, because it can't be anybody. There's some people out there that come up with the stupid like oh, why don't you just adopt? Like and that's not. And that's not downplaying the adoption concept. I would love the concept of adopting a child in need, hundred percent, but that's not the answer at that moment that we need to hear you know, or things happen for a reason I will kick you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, all your, all your homeboys ain't the best support system. I ain't even gonna put it to your homeboys all your family ain't even the best support system in the moment. Like it, in that moment, it's like yo, man, you know, like I said, like I for all the folk in church and you know I had to go back and apologize to folks I said, man, look, I look, I know I almost choked you out at insert Church of God, but like what it was like in the moment, like I don't, I don't want to hear your prayers, I don't want to hear your this. You know you go to your partners and your homeboys. It's like, oh, bro, you'll be straight, y'all could just get right back to it. It's like I don't need that right now, bro. Like, like, yeah, I'm out here like NFL linebacker size, but like, right now, bro, I really, I really need to crown your shoulder, I really need a hug because, like this is this hurts, this really hurts and this is that's the.
Speaker 4:I think, even in the moment, like how Jeff, like Jeff said something real, like the, you being the, I'm the cornerstone for this family and that brother going in the house and crying like it. I'm not mad at it Like I wanted. In that moment I'm like all right, I need to go and cry for the three days where I sat up. I look back and I'm like it was so selfish of me, you know, to not be there for my wife. But even in talking to my therapist, when I spoke to him, he was like no, bro, it wasn't selfish. Like in that moment you had to do that. He was like it's bad, but you had to get that you time, even if it wasn't the best. But to be the cornerstone and not feel like the cornerstone, like this goes beyond your religious beliefs and all that, like, just as a man like yo, I need to do this and I'm not doing it and the family right now can't depend on me Like walls crushing in and those three days of crying, that's not selfishness, that's self-preservation.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it took me years to learn that you have a gaping wound. It took years. It took years for me to learn that because, for after it was all man that was so selfish of me and my therapist was like no, he was like, think about, he was like you know, you were almost fighting people who said stuff. He was like for that three days you literally may have like his exact words. You might have kept yourself out of prison.
Speaker 3:I was like yeah you. I said you.
Speaker 4:You may be on to something.
Speaker 3:Well, I would encourage, I mean, I would tell both of you, I would applaud you for the way that you guys mourned, because I'm sure your wife was like, yes, it's real for him too. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:I couldn't help myself. Like I, I just fell apart, like the moment we got in the door. I, I like my knees were gone. Like I, I had no control over my morning process and I don't.
Speaker 3:There's nothing like to me. You're living as a human. We were created, man or not. We're created with these emotions, yeah. So why are we acting, you know, like it's something we have to hide, and that part is really. It really hurts us as men. It hurts us in our relationships with our wives, with our kids, if we're not willing to tie into those emotions. So it's crazy, because vulnerability is a bad word.
Speaker 1:That's what I wanted to say. Augusta was like you know, you're telling your friends like I don't need to hear your prayers, I need a hug. Yeah, bro, I don't need to hear your prayers, I need a hug. Like so many times we heard, like my, my wife, is from Mexico city, so like her family is, is Catholic, you know. And just like so many times, like, oh well, you know it's part of God's plan, and like that's fine, that's part of his plan. But like I need vulnerability right now and you're, you're closing yourself off to me, like have some empathy, get down on the floor with me. You know, like be at eye level, put your arm on me and just like don't even say anything. You know that's almost better. Be Christ-like.
Speaker 3:Be Christ-like, and that's probably a whole separate episode somewhere else, christ like in that moment, and that's a separate it's like probably a whole separate episode somewhere else, but yeah sometimes the advice that we get is just horrific, and even when even people are trying their best to come from a good place and I think we have to show a little bit of like okay, they can only give what they have right. So, and I think the key here is, like I need to watch where I go with my stuff, cause if you go to an empty well, you're not going to get any water out of it. But if you know so, we need to find those people who are really going to support us as men. And and I agree a hundred percent, I don't know how many times I've had like the standard boxed church answer and I wanted to just smack somebody, you know. But again, nothing. I'm not saying anything about anybody who who defaults to that.
Speaker 3:I understand it, but there's times when you just have to like be with someone, hug them, like you said, jeffrey, you know, mourn with them, get on the floor with them. I, you know little things like somebody sending you a plate of food my gosh, that's an action that is so. It means a lot. You know little things like somebody sending you a plate of food my gosh, that's an action that is so. It means a lot. You know you get a little basket or a card from somebody and I know guys don't typically do that stuff, right? But even if it's a handshake, even as a hey brother, let me, let me take you to get a coffee, or let's go hang, or let's go whatever.
Speaker 2:We can learn a lot from those moments, you know. Let's talk about our our ability or inability in that moment for us to open up to people, to let them know what we were feeling and experiencing. Because I can tell you guys from the gate, I did not feel like I could say something to someone, not necessarily because of said person. I just felt like I was betraying some sort of form as a man for me to open my mouth and say something to somebody else. I just didn't know how to begin to do that. So that was my experience. So let's talk about what your experience was or what your thoughts are in the moment. If you can go back and place yourself back in that moment, feet on the ground, looking around from the outside, in what was it about that moment that either made you feel comfortable with sharing with people versus not comfortable with sharing with people, the tragedy that you were experiencing. It took me a while.
Speaker 1:It took me a few days to go back to work. I think we told my wife's family first because I felt close to them. I think, like, the last person I found out was my own mother actually, because, like I said, I was the lodestone for her growing up. I was her emotional support. Because, like, like I said, I was the lodestone for her growing up, I was her emotional support. So I I didn't feel like she could emotionally support me when I knew what I was doing my entire life.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it took me several days of being at home with my wife, not talking to anybody, before I started to open up or even went back to work. And and when I did, I chose one person that I felt comfortable with and kind of like in in a secluded area, talked about it, opened up and and kind of like practiced talking about it to see, like, how am I like? Am I gonna just break down crying? Am I? Am I going to uh, you know, get angry? Am I gonna swear to swear? What am I going to do? Because I had no idea. I had no idea how I'd act.
Speaker 1:So I chose one coworker that I was close with and opened up to her and, yeah, she was very supportive. And then other people asked me if I'm OK, what's going on, and I let things out little by little. You know it was like a trickle and I I think that was the easiest way for me to talk about it. But at some point, um, I was telling everybody because I was like there's such a stigma around this. How come nobody told me? I'm gonna tell everybody that, like you know, one, one out of five pregnancies can end in this garage. Just so y'all know it really sucks and if it ever happens to you come to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, walk down the street. Hey, one in five pregnancies.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And also, obviously, some humor. It really helped me get through it too and at some point I was able to, you know, disconnect my feelings about it and talk about how, like the stigma is a real issue, but at the beginning, like I was almost a week before I talked to anyone outside of my tight circle- hard for me to share.
Speaker 3:So, as I described earlier my upbringing, I tried to escape all sort of problems. I left my house, I left bad situations, I kind of ran from them and I got busy. So, believe it or not, I literally did go to work the next available day and I felt like I had to continue pushing forward. I had this kind of like I've got to fight through this while my wife is, you know, suffering. I got to continue to push the family forward. I got to continue, and it was this really distorted view of my role, right, and I regret it. I regret it Because of that I missed out on an opportunity to mourn properly, you know, and, um, to be a better support as a husband and to be a better father for my son, you know.
Speaker 3:So I feel like I kind of ran from it and it took me a while to. I don't know. Certain things just made it suddenly hit home. I don't know how to describe it, but there were just moments where it was like, holy crap, I just we lost a baby, and this may have been weeks or months later, and so I think eventually it just started with me. You know, when that happened, then I was desperate looking for someone to kind of share with and at the time I was, you know, fortunate enough to have, you know, my dad as a, as someone I could talk to. My um, you know, a couple of close friends guys that I trusted. You know you just started to kind of explore more of my feelings then at that point.
Speaker 4:Initially to speaking to people. It wasn't even organic. Uh, I think there were a lot of people around on both my side of the family and my ex-wife's side of the family at the time who just were mentally. All of them were on that. Just get back to it, you'll be good, just get back to it. And even the three days coming out after that, three days like all right, man, I'm in a haze, I just want to relax. But it was a lot of forced conversations. You know, what do y'all think happened? How was this? Are you okay? And it wasn't as much as support. So initially it wasn't organic. Like I think I was like Alex. It took, it took a little while.
Speaker 4:Like I went back to work, took some FMLA time off, about like three weeks to make sure after the DNC that you know, like my wife was good and relaxed and all right, cool, I can leave the house. And I remember going back to work and one of my partners who I was real tight with I and he, you know, hadn't texted him or nothing and he's like hey, bro, like you good, everything all right, and I was, you know, kind of hesitating at the lunch table you good, everything all right, and I was, you know, kind of hesitating at the lunch table. You know, we're going to the break room and he comes in and he just goes. He looks at me and he goes, so is there still a baby shower? And I just was, you know, just, it's all dudes in the room, you know, it's everybody, you know former military and all of that, and I just I put my head on the table and I'm just sobbing on the table and he, he literally just, you know, and we're two totally different backgrounds. You know, this is like a white brother from Orange County, california, whose father was a firefighter and whose mother was a doctor, like he doesn't know struggle or anything like that. Like he's like, oh, all my kids have been successful. And him, with this totally different everything background, he just kind of just leaned in, just put his hand on my shoulder and I just bawled and I could feel it's still to this day one of the oddest moments.
Speaker 4:I could feel like four or five hands just on my back, like nah, bro, it's good, you're going to be all right. That was the first time that was like three weeks after where I had a real organic, natural conversation about it, because everything before that was forced, forced to give answers to family, you know, to who wanted to know what was I going to do, what was the next move. And it took me to be like in a room of former hard-charging, like infantrymen and nutjob military vets who I worked with, to be like no dog, it's going to be all right, you're going to be cool man. What you need, I can help you. You want to talk about it? So it took three weeks to have a real combo and it was with one dude who I'm still tight with to this day and five guys who I just worked with, who low-key, were almost strangers.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Tune in next week for the conclusion of this conversation. You can find us on YouTube as the Miscarriage Dads, which is soon to become Miscarriage Support for Dads. Thank you, thank you.
