The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E34: Reimagining Life After Loss (ft. Osei Daniels)
Welcome to episode 34!
This week, we have the privilege of speaking with Osei Daniels, a devoted youth pastor from Washington DC. Osei and his wife have faced multiple miscarriages, complicated further by her PCOS diagnosis. Osei's candid revelations highlight the often-silent struggle men endure and the necessity of creating spaces where they can express their grief and support their partners through these difficult times.
In this heartfelt conversation, we delve into the complexities of the infertility journey, from the emotional toll of IVF to the silent battles of guilt and shame men experience. Osei shares his unwavering commitment to his marriage, regardless of their ability to have children, underscoring the importance of mutual support and open communication. The discussion extends to cultural pressures that discourage men from showing vulnerability, with a particular focus on the unique challenges faced by Black men. By embracing vulnerability and seeking professional help, Osei illustrates how men can navigate the grief of losing an imagined future and redefine their identities meaningfully.
We explore the profound grief fathers face after a miscarriage, often mourning the loss of their envisioned identity as parents. Through intimate discussions, we emphasize the necessity of processing this grief to avoid emotional stagnation and find new sources of joy and purpose. This episode is a poignant reminder that how we respond to disappointment shapes our growth and resilience. Whether you are a father, a partner, or a supporter, this conversation offers invaluable insights into the emotional journey through miscarriage and the transformative power of vulnerability and emotional honesty.
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
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Emotionally I didn't want to go there. Emotionally I didn't want to go through with her in that process of losing this one, and so I disconnected.
Speaker 3:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Welcome to another episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host.
Speaker 2:My name is Chris and I'm your co-host, and we've got a very special guest with us today. My name is Chris and I'm your co-host, and we've got a very special guest with us today. The person that we have brought on today to share with you all is a very, very good friend of mine, someone that I've worked with for a long time, someone that I've been friends with for a long time, and we were just talking and it's been close to a decade. I say that I've known you man, but this is, I say, daniels, and I say, if you could just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself, and then we're going to get into your story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, again, kelly and Chris Appreciate the invite to come on. My name is Ase Daniels Antone and I have been married. This May will be 18 years. Born and raised in Washington DC, went to Howard and then Masters Masters's, finally finished at Liberty University with my master's in pastoral counseling. Now I'm working as the next generation pastor here in DC and I've been you know, we've been working with young people for going on at least 20 years, probably a little bit more together. Yeah, that's me pretty much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, and I got to say, in working with you, dude, I've said it to you privately, I've said it to you publicly, I've said to other people publicly One of the best youth pastors I've ever seen in my life, and with a lot of the work that you've done, not even just with young people, but even in branching off and working specifically with men, because I know that you were doing that for some time.
Speaker 2:But, of course, the main reason we wanted to bring you on, man, is because we wanted you to share with us your story, because I know that you and Antoinette have gone through your own miscarriages and your own losses, and we wanted to get your perspective and your story, because me and Kelly are here. Of course we have experienced our miscarriages, but we have children. You and Antone are still in that situation where you still haven't had any kids yet, and we just wanted to hear your story. And what we normally do is, as we go along, we'll just ask you some questions and those kinds of things, man, but please and start wherever you want, wherever you feel most comfortable to start with, and just share with us.
Speaker 1:No, again what you guys are talking about. I like it because it's different. I don't think there's any other podcast like this, not even close, especially for men to have a space to emote. Our culture has a way of demonizing us if we care to emote, and especially on something as sensitive as this. I appreciate y'all making a platform and putting this together, putting the investment in, but my story is, I'll be honest, that even to this day, I told Antoinette the whole time that if we have kids or not, I'm good.
Speaker 1:I've heard some marriages split and different. I was never on that. I was never on. You know, if we don't have this child, this child, that's it, we're over, we're through. But when we got married, I found out that she had PCOS and with that is layered with with numerous challenges to get pregnant, and so, you know, we got married.
Speaker 1:I'd say probably after the first five years we were like, ok, let's see, let's see how this goes, let's go ahead and make it official, let's try. And nothing stuck, nothing landed. And so we said OK, we said we're going to you know, you know I had a great job. I was working with the school district. I said, okay, we're gonna go through the um, in vitro fertilization. We're gonna go and invest in ourselves and go that route. And so we go there, um, you know, we jump through all the hoops, do all the tests. I had to get tested samples, this and this and that blood, all that stuff, the whole deal and we come out. We come out, we're like, okay, we're excited. You know, they're giving us pretty good hope. They've seen success with with, especially with women with PCOS. All right, let's go.
Speaker 3:And so Hold on, hold on. I said before, before you keep going. This is something that I learned from Chris and helping me to put my feet on the ground and walk through the story. So I'm going to ask you to do the same thing before we go any further. So I'm going to ask you two questions, one for anyone who may not be familiar with PCOS can you briefly describe what that is?
Speaker 1:Polycystic ovarian syndrome. Yeah, it's a lot of women have it. More women than you realize have this condition. It bothers their hormones and it makes it really challenging for women to get pregnant. There's some weight concerns, some challenges that go along with that. It's not really treatable. You can kind of attack it with diet. You got to kind of be over the top with it, vegan and just like going all in, and so most people don't have that kind of bandwidth to really address it that way. There's medicines that help, but not really so. It's one of those. Once you have it, it's really challenging to address, and so we had that. But we still were hopeful. We talked to the doctors and oh, but let me. I'm going to pause there and let you ask the next question.
Speaker 3:So the next question I wanted to ask you is you tried. Naturally it wasn't happening. How long did you try? For number one, what were some of the challenges that you experienced personally during that time and then afterwards when you went to the IVF route and then you had to do all of those testings if you can speak to the impact of going that route and having to do all of these things on you and your psyche and how you were perceiving your role and this process of trying to have children.
Speaker 1:We tried for the first five, six years to do it naturally and just to see what happens. Yeah, nothing came of that. So we said early on okay, this is something we want to see. We want to put all the options out there and try our best. So we said, okay, we're going to go the medical route, the IVF.
Speaker 1:I thought that you know when I had to start getting tested and all these things, I'm like, okay, is it really me? You don't know. And so I'm there looking at the test results, hearing the doctors. I'm like we kind of know it, more than likely it's her, but I can still play a part as far as it not happening. And so I'm there and I'm struggling with the whole process.
Speaker 1:Like you know, you got to be dedicated. You got to go week after week after week and you got to try this round and you got to do this and then you got to freeze that and it was a whole thing. So I'm sitting there questioning, you know cause? She's ready, she's locked and loaded, she wants to get it done. And I'm sitting there like, okay, could it still be me this whole time? You know cause? You know I wasn't married before, I didn't um, you know I didn't before it's an, it's an. It was the, I think, the third girl I dated it or married her, so I didn't really date a lot coming up it was that was not my thing.
Speaker 2:So once we got married and you know, got married about six years in- no-transcript me to bear children, right, and something that you had kind of said earlier was you had told her hey, I'm not necessarily looking for that, I want kids, but if we don't have, like, I'm not going to leave you. But going through all those motions and going through all those moments, like you were saying, you are questioning yourself and thinking about man, is it me? Am I also the problem? Like am I contributing to this problem? In looking at that and looking at that question, like you were kind of saying that weird moment, how did you feel in terms of your ability to give support to Antoinette during all of this? And I would also ask how did you feel in terms of the support that you might have been getting, Just because sometimes, like you said, we as men don't necessarily always share. Did you share with her? That that's how you were feeling, or?
Speaker 1:I'll be honest, it was all to kind of check that box for Antoinette. Like you said, as a woman. She was determined. She said I want to be a mother. It was a big deal for her and she wanted to have it for me. She wanted me to have that affirmation and that opportunity to be a father and she wanted to have it for me. She wanted me to have that affirmation and that opportunity to be a father. You know, she always affirmed me, she thought I'd be a great father, et cetera. And so in my mind I'm thinking I want to do this for her. You know, I want her to be able to check that box and not feel less than as a woman.
Speaker 1:I was willing to go through it. It was, it was tedious and, like I said, you know, you got to invent at certain times of the month and then, you know, you got to try it. This time. You got to do this. It was so many checkboxes and I said, OK, well, we're here, let's, let's go, let's, let's swing for the fences, kind of thing. But as far as for me, I honestly it was almost like if I, if I could use the gambling analogy I had, I had Because, again, I wasn't going to be devastated if we did or didn't. But as far as how I felt, I didn't really talk about it. I didn't talk to my boys or anything about it. I really kind of put like a, yeah, just house money, oh, okay, if this happens or not. But not really really getting into where I was personally.
Speaker 1:And once, once we started getting down the road and then once you know, one miscarriage occurred. That first miscarriage was hard. Man, it was hard for her. She was. She was that first time. You're sitting there, you're excited. Okay, Boom, she's pregnant. The tech, you know, you do the test and you look at it. You're all excited and we're like okay. And I'm like okay, all this investment, all this time, that worked. Okay, all right, what's next? We did this and that was a big hurdle just to get pregnant. And that first one was hard.
Speaker 1:And I'm watching her and I'm looking at her like man, this really devastating. I never had not being married or anything like that before. I'm looking at her like man, this really devil. I never had, you know. You know not being married or anything like that before. I'm looking at her like this is. It's almost like her identity was tied into motherhood, you know, and she, she just couldn't wrap her head around investing all the time and money and resources that we did and having that first pregnancy, getting pregnant, but then that first miscarriage occurred.
Speaker 1:It was one of the hardest things I had to see her go through, but for the first one, I saw it from her perspective, but my heart never connected to it, I'll be honest. And so now, okay, the doctor said OK, OK, you know, usually doesn't stick the first time around, you know, they're kind of giving us that encouragement, Right. And so they said you know, and you know, in my head I'm thinking, OK, they are they running game? I don't know, I don't like thinking like that about hospitals. Me and hospitals don't have a great relationship.
Speaker 3:But you know what it's interesting? It's interesting that you say that and that you saw it as them trying to give you encouragement, Because so did the doctor actually use those exact terms? Those exact words that the first one usually doesn't say.
Speaker 1:They said you know the percentages, you know they, you know they have, you know this is this is years ago, so I'm trying to remember all details, but I do remember them saying okay, you know they didn't really try to encourage her, but I'm listening and, um, oh, okay, well, it was, it was good that we finally got pregnant. Right, we got there. So let's let's stick it through. You know, IVS is a it's different for each woman, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm like all right, again, this is something I was willing to do for her. I was willing to go through it and it was. It was tough. You know, you see your wife going through that and you can't. You feel like I felt like I couldn't do anything about it and I'm sitting there, but I again, this first one, it didn't land for me emotionally. I saw her, I was emotional for my wife, but for me I didn't. I didn't connect it.
Speaker 3:When did it finally connect for you?
Speaker 1:I'll be honest. I'll be honest, it was the fourth miscarriage Again, I'm kind of playing sideline coach kind of thing through this whole piece and the second, the third miscarriage she didn't really take it like that, but the fourth one was where it was and I'm going to get the timing wrong, but I would say, probably for the first, I guess that first trimester it was extended and we were like, okay, we're here, this is it. We were all. We told the family, we told everybody this was happening. I'll never forget, chris, I got up in church and I was testifying to the Lord and just kind kind of telling everybody like man, we've gone through these three miscarriages, this one is going to be it.
Speaker 1:You know, I had to come to the front. It was a whole deal and you know it was. And then so I mean, everybody's locked in and we're. You know, we're like, okay, we're looking at the dates, okay, baby's going to be born this time, baby's going to be born this time. We were there and I think emotionally I finally said in my mind it clicked, I'm going to be a father, right. And I was like, okay, emotionally, I'm in, I'm connected, I'm vested now. But it got to the point where this fourth miscarriage occurred. For some reason, I forgot why, but she never made it to the hospital to go through this last miscarriage. The other ones were not. They were able to pass without much issue, but this one was long enough of a term that she had to pass it as if it was a. It was an actual um, not a stillbirth.
Speaker 2:I'm actual right, no, yeah, she had to go through a version of labor for it to pass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yeah, I was. I was home. I'm gonna be straight with y'all. I was home and she was in the bathroom and I it was. It didn't register in my head what she was going through. And I'm hearing her in pain, et cetera. And I'm like in my head I didn't. I didn't fathom the idea that she had to still pass it normally without it coming to term, you know, without having to go through a whole bunch of surgery and stuff. And I'm sitting there like is this, this, I'm, I'm? I couldn't connect it. It was, it was like a haze, I'm sitting there and I didn't.
Speaker 1:And then I remember she was, that was the thing that hurt her the most was that I didn't go and be with her right in there. You know, sometimes you know, y'all know what y'all are fathers. So sometimes you got to get in there and be, with all the drama and all the mess. You got to be right there and I wasn't. And I'm just like in my mind I didn't. I think emotionally I didn't want to go there, emotionally I didn't want to go through with her in that process of losing this one, and so I disconnected and I'm going to wrap up here. I realized that and I remember I got to work later on, like maybe a couple of weeks later, and I got there and I stopped in the car before I went in and then it finally boom, it all hit, and that's when the emotions came, that's when the loss experienced. It was like, man, I had a child and it didn't last, it didn't. You know, the process didn't go through and I'm just.
Speaker 1:The emotions finally came, and then I thought, and I wasn't there for her, and so it was like a double whammy for me, and I'm just like we went through all those miscarriages, but this one was the one that actually had viability, and then I wasn't there for her, and then I didn't even know that I needed anybody to be there for me, and so it was just. You know, I've never heard, ever, even before y'all's podcast, anybody talking about the father's perspective, and so I didn't even think I had a platform or a space to even verbalize that. Hey, this was tough for me too, this hurt me too, I feel lost too, and it was a lonely space, bro, it was a lonely space. It was doubly lonely because I wasn't there for her, and I think she was more she. She was hurt by the fact that I didn't I didn't step up to the plate to be there for her.
Speaker 1:Through that Really, really, the hardest one of all of them was the last one, the first one and then the ones in the middle were kind of it wasn't even anything right and as far as medically. So that was, that was my experience y'all, and it still to this day kind of messes with my head when I think I was disappointed in myself, I was disappointed in the situation.
Speaker 3:And then I was disappointed in myself that I couldn't be there in that moment for tapping into what is such a traumatic, such a devastating space, to be carrying that feeling for as long as you've been carrying it and, for the first time, sharing it on a platform and on a forum like this. So we really appreciate you opening up and trusting not just Chris, who you know, myself, who you're just meeting, but the many listeners that we have who may never come across you, but trusting them with your story as well. So thank you for that. I want to say that, first and foremost, there's so much that I want to touch on from what you shared and, I think, big picture, there's something that I'm going to put on the table for us to discuss.
Speaker 3:Chris and I, chris, we've spoken about this aspect of physically right In our physio. We don't experience anything to the degree that our wives or partners experience being pregnant and and you know, having life begin in them and then life ending in them, like we have zero concept of what that even remotely is. So there is this, this luxury I'm going to say the word luxury. There's this luxury that we have due to this detachment, due to the fact that our bodies are not the vessels of life or death. Many a times I don't know how to relate to that luxury that I have because, while it's easy for me to look at her and be like I'm glad it's not me, you know I can go and do things right. I can still keep an active lifestyle, I can still go and play sports, I can still, you know, pop out of bed and not have to worry about anything. I remember when my wife was pregnant, man like second, third trimester she would literally have to wake up like two hours before just so that she could roll out of bed. You know what I'm saying. And it was just like I don't know what that is. I can't understand what that is. So we have that luxury. That luxury affords us the option to either tap in and be right there with them or I'll say to your point just being like yo, I can't be in there with her because it's just too much.
Speaker 3:And I think, if I'm listening to what you didn't say, I'm going to assume that either at the moment or retrospectively, when you think about it, there's a great deal of guilt and shame that's attached to that. Yeah Right, because we have that luxury and they don't. So what I want to put on the table for us to discuss is really that luxury and how we relate to, to that luxury that we have, as well as the, the, the way that we then perceive our actions or inactions in those moments that can lead to shame and guilt. Because Because, while, on the one hand, I don't think anybody would disagree with you and be like, nah, dude, I understand why you didn't want to be in there, there's also a good number of people who would be like, nah, man, if that was me, like I would have gone straight in there because that's my woman and I would have, and I don't know, like, is there a right or wrong? And whichever way you, you decide.
Speaker 3:So, just to be transparent and to actually set the, the, the two paradigms, and not the two paradigms, but the two spectrums on the table, you didn't go with your wife while she was going through all of that, my wife and I. She also went through something like that here in our home and I went in there and I was like right there with her. So here we are two guys, similar experience, different responses. My response is not the right one, your response is not the wrong one, and vice versa. So can we talk about that for a little bit?
Speaker 2:Hmm, man, that's a great point, that's great. You know, for me I feel like it's one of those things, man, you don't know about what you would do until you're in it. Because, also, like you were saying, I say not knowing at that moment, and you know, talking about the fourth one, because she was passing it at this point, not knowing that that was even going to happen, I know when, when amber uh passed hers, I mean I, I was in the bathroom too. It's shocking, because you don't know that's supposed to happen, and that's the point that you have no idea.
Speaker 2:Shocking yes, yes, and you have two responses it's fight or flight, right and um I. Of course we're not talking about, like you know, getting into an actual fighting situation, but now I'm thinking you're thinking of in terms of something unexpected happening and knowing what to do quickly. And you don't. I would even say I say and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just me kind of feeling things out. You know, because you said you had lost three before and, granted, of course, you weren't as emotionally attached, but now it's become real, you know, and all of that suddenly adds up into this one, and where you were able to detach earlier because they happened earlier, you didn't have to see all this. Now, all of a sudden it's all rushing on you. Yeah, you know. So of course you're gonna have that response of like, oh man, I, I don't even think I should, I don't even want to be in there like, I don't want to see that. I don't want to be like, because it's terrifying. Yeah, to know that, like your wife now is going through, when you realize what's going on and realize wait a minute, my wife is in labor and all that comes with it, it suddenly becomes real and it's scary and it's terrifying and you don't know what to do and, like Kelly was saying, it's not about right and what's wrong, it's just about what happens in that moment.
Speaker 2:I think that that's oh, I don't think that's trauma. That's trauma. Whenever something like that happens to you, that's trauma, and we all respond to those traumatic events very differently, you know, and I want to thank you I mean, I know Kelly has already thanked you for coming on but even for sharing that because, like Kelly pointed out and you pointed out as well, there's a lot of shame and guilt that comes with that, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people that are listening that that might've happened with them as well. And it's important to know, because you know, I know you and Anthony, y'all are still together, y as well. And it's important to know because I know you and Anthony, y'all are still together. Y'all have made it that, hey, of course there's still the possibility to move on after that as well, right, but that if you were that one that didn't feel like you weren't there, you're not alone in that.
Speaker 2:That are feeling guilty or shame. And I think this is the thing with men overall that are feeling guilty or shame because and I think this is the thing with men overall, with us and the whole miscarriage thing, I know, even for me there's guilt and shame associated with me, because even for me, when Amber, when we first learned that she had the miscarriage, I wasn't there. She had to go to the doctor's office by herself because it's COVID and all those kinds of things, but still that guilt, I didn't even drive her there. And to realize it wouldn't, and just uh, for you I say to know because I haven't told you about this uh, you know, we live in upper marlborough. The place that she will go to uh is all the way up in rockville oh boy, yeah, so this is a 50 minute.
Speaker 2:She's, oh yeah, an hour away finding this out and now she's got to be by herself. I still feel guilty about it, you know, but that's all a part of this process, this healing process, you know, and it's just so important. Again, it's not about right or wrong, man, it's about getting it out and sharing, being able to look back and understand that, because, boy, does it help, at least knowing what was going on, moving forward.
Speaker 3:I think this is a good time for us to talk in real time about how we've been able to process through our feelings of guilt, so that other people who hear this conversation can also gain a framework to help them process through their own stuff. So can we talk about and I'm going to start with you first. I say how have you been able to process through those deeper feelings of guilt and shame as a result of how devastating that fourth miscarriage was and the way in which you responded or did not respond, and in those moments, you had to get a therapist.
Speaker 1:I had to sit down with a therapist and it was. It was weird because I thought I had a level of emotional intelligence before, but this real just brought me to the realization that I didn't have that. I wasn't tapped into who I was, and then I realized that there was a level that I needed to go deeper in my marriage, and so I had to sit down with a pro and unpack all these things just to start becoming more emotionally aware. That's why, in my pastoral counseling now, that's what I emphasize, especially for my men. That's why in my pastoral counseling now that's what I emphasize, especially for my men we cannot be emotionally disconnected and emotionally unaware, especially in our marriages and dealing with our children. We have to be present, we have to have boots on the ground, be there and be willing to feel and experience what the situation dictates and not find ways to avoid it. So that that's what I had to do and it was. It was um, and I'm thankful I.
Speaker 1:I think everybody on planet earth should go to therapy, especially church folk like me, church boy, and so I'm I'm a big advocate for mental health and you know, for things that we don't really talk about a lot which is grief, especially for men. My culture and my faith experience has been you go to a funeral. It could be your mother or something. Maybe your mother. Maybe your mother. You could shed some tears, maybe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, mother, grandmother, wife would be like the only exception.
Speaker 1:You got a bar and that's the criteria. But as soon as you start going under that, okay, what's going on? Then we start questioning manhood. I mean all these layers and these attacks, these subtle cultural attacks that aren't physical, but you feel that and I've learned that. I've always been an emotional guy. That's always who I've learned, that I've always been an emotional guy. That's always who I've been. And this experience taught me that I don't want to be disconnected anymore, for whatever my wife experiences and what we experience with her and to hear her disappointment and frustration with me that brought us. We had to do that so that we could come even closer together as we are today.
Speaker 3:Man, bro, I am so happy you said that Because Chris remember you and I had a conversation where we were talking about just that, right Cause it's such an uncomfortable conversation to have. So a couple of things from what you said. I'll say you went to therapy, you had that conversation, or you had a series of conversation unpacking those things in therapy. So number one here you are talking to a total stranger about something so intimate and personal and on the one hand, that is so freeing because this person don't know me from a pan of what am I trying to say.
Speaker 3:From a can of paint. There you go. That right there, right. So it's freeing to be able to have that conversation and it's also very frightening because you are now opening yourself up to a total stranger yes, a professional, but it's still an incredibly difficult conversation to have. And then to have worked it out enough in therapy to now go and face directly the person that you are in the most intimate relationship with, man, that is just absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 3:Chris and I we had a conversation several months back where it was like, because of the nature of this whole thing loss and grief and baby lost and what have you to have that conversation as friends is hard.
Speaker 3:And then to turn around with the person who you both had you know you had, you shared this expectation with and to be like, hey, this is my experience, this is my hurt, this is my grief, this is my shame, this is my guilt oh my God. I don't want to sign up for that at all. But the fact that you did do that and what Chris and I proposed in that conversation was the lack of that happening in relationships is a missed opportunity for deeper connection, for deeper intimacy, for taking your relationship to the next level, and it's not that you want to go through these really devastating things. But here we are, you know, especially in in a marriage commitment where we've committed our lives to each other. What a huge missed opportunity to not have or to not be able to share those intimate aspects about your psyche and your emotions with the person who you legitimately say you put your life in their hands it's leg day.
Speaker 2:It's leg day. It's leg day, like you know. You have it's work, it's hard work and it sucks. Yeah, but you got to do it, or you're going to be walking around these streets looking funny, yeah, you know, because you got all these dudes walking around big old chest, big old arms and these skinny little little chicken legs, man, and you're like yo, you don't? You look unbalanced? Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:Like you know fast fast but no one wants to do it because it's out of all the work. Like day is the worst because you're you wake up in the morning, you know your legs are sore, like you do everything with your legs you gotta walk, you gotta sit, you gotta stand up when you, when you lay down, it's the worst. It's the worst to having to go to therapy. It's the worst having to go to therapy. It's the worst having to get into a state of unpacking emotions Because for me, I don't process things. So I know, even for me, like doing this podcast has been so helpful because I've been able to process our miscarriage.
Speaker 2:But when you don't process and untangle, the reason you don't is because you're afraid of the feelings that are going to come out. You're afraid of the fear. Fear hurts, guilt hurts, shame hurts. And then doing the work of talking to your spouse about it. That's an uncomfortable conversation, but if you want your relationship or marriage or whatever to be balanced and actually be proportional, you got to do the work. You got to do the leg day and it, like both of you guys said, pays off. We'll be right back.
Speaker 3:I say you mentioned earlier something about not wanting your wife to feel less than a woman At any point in this process. Was there any part of it that made you feel less than a?
Speaker 1:man, I think. But going into that IVF facility and to talk to the doctors, I mean, you know, you got to talk about everything in there. Again, it's one of those uncomfortable conversations that you've never had in your life with strangers. But you got to sit there and explain and break down and give details and that was as a man. That was difficult for me. That was one of the first experiences that I've had. You know, you have it with your doctor. You had, you know, certain conversations, but this wasn't my doctor. You know what I'm saying. So it was like do I have to be this detailed with you? You know, if you want to, you know, if you want this whole thing to work, you got to let us know the details. We got to try to help you as much as possible. So those details are important, et cetera, et cetera. That was tough, that was uncomfortable for me, but again I was willing to do it because I wanted to have give my wife the best opportunity to experience motherhood possible. So I was willing to have those uncomfortable conversations and to be in that space.
Speaker 1:To me it's like those facilities they were hospitals and they were not really it. To me it's like those facilities were. They were hospitals and they were not really. It was kind of a weird kind of dynamic there and so I'm sitting there and it doesn't. It doesn't feel like a hospital, because my mom was a nurse at, you know, howard University Hospital, for you know my whole life and so I know what hospitals are, but this wasn't you know. So it's like these kind of conversations were happening in a different place. That don't normally happen, and I'm a man and it was. It was not fun, it wasn't.
Speaker 3:Did that amplify or lessen your shame and when you were having those those type of really uncomfortable conversations?
Speaker 1:I think it was the shame was the shame. It that was, was present and that was felt. It was one of those where it was shame that I had nowhere to put, there was no place for it Because, again, the husband of the miscarriage or the father of the miscarriage never gets asked any questions, never gets a space, never gets an opportunity, and so I didn't have anywhere, I didn't even know how to talk to my boys about it. You know what I'm saying? I didn't know, and my dad wasn't the most emotional dude on the planet and so it didn't even cross my mind to call him up. And so I'm sitting there carrying this shame and guilt like this is not cool. And I didn't have any place to place it until I was willing to say you know what that last miscarriage and I've learned about life that you got to get kind of sick and tired of being sick and tired when you get angry enough. That's when you make changes. And so I got angry.
Speaker 1:I was disappointed in my response enough to say I need to do the work so that I can have that comfortable conversation with my wife, so that we can be able to move forward from this thing and become the next best version of ourselves. I think grief has a way of helping people become the next best version of themselves, but a lot of times we don't feel like we have permission to become that next person. We get stuck in the grief and the loss and that loss stifles us and it could be really debilitating if you're not careful. So I'm proud of myself for doing the work, for being uncomfortable, for putting that shame in, finally, a space that I hadn't experienced before. That was the first time I had gone to therapy, but I was glad for it to begin to unload and to unpack it, because I was just so frustrated walking around with this thing and I said there has to be a place for me to do this and I don't want this to be a wall between my wife and I.
Speaker 2:And looking back now, because you said the fourth was, of course, the most devastating, did that change your perspective on how you looked at the first three?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. It did. It did change. It was like the whole roller coaster was at its height and then, before you know it, it just kind of dipped and it just disappeared and the hope never got to that height. On the previous dream, but this one, the hope was all the way there. We were all there, we were bought in, and when the hope went away, it made this one the most difficult, for sure.
Speaker 2:The reason I ask is because, like you said, it's like you look back and you realize wait a minute, this was a whole ride, even with the other three. Something that we have talked about me and Kelly have talked about is looking at the plans and grieving the loss of plans. Grieving the how do we say exactly? Say it, kelly, about what was going on in our minds, the plans of our minds?
Speaker 3:Chris and I, we've developed this, saying that when we find out that we're going to be parents, that we're going to be fathers, the child is not growing in our bodies, like we've spoken about before, but the child is growing in the womb of our imagination.
Speaker 3:Yes, so our imagination becomes this womb, and that's why, when we experience the loss, that happens both on the emotional level for the woman and also on the physio level for the woman. We can only experience it in the psychological, emotional level. If it's as devastating for her, it's also going to be devastating for us as well, but that's the term that Chris and I we developed the womb of our imagination.
Speaker 1:No, and that's good, because you start growing that baby and you start imagining and picturing and just getting excited about the things you're going to be able to do together and the plans that you're going to set forth and the example that you want to be in. It's a powerful motivator for fathers. Once you finally get there, it's again to become that next best version of yourself, to step into this lane of fatherhood. It's like a graduation, almost right, where you don't have to be that young boy anymore. Now you can really be a man, right. This is the definition of manhood.
Speaker 3:It's like a rite of passage right, it's like this ritual.
Speaker 1:It's real, it's tangible. I didn't feel less than a man when we had these miscarriages, but it was just that I didn't get to go through that portal. You know what I'm saying. I never got to see the other end of it and that it's regretful. Right, it's something I regret to this day that I didn't get to experience, but it's like I'm not frozen in that and I'm thankful and God has blessed us.
Speaker 1:It's been where. It's not the same, but we've gotten to work with youth and young people and young adults for so long that we've done it so many times. I call it with these high school generations where they would graduate, and we've done it so that we're at the point where now our young people, who are teens, are now parents and they're calling us to do the baby dedications you know what I'm saying To be present, to invite us there or to actually do it, and so it's indirectly. We get to experience a little piece of that, but it's not the entire family, you know. You make it a big deal for that baby dedication. You make friends and family. It's a celebration, it's a whole deal and I think you know that's. You know one of the questions me and Laura are going to have. Like Laura, you know, I wanted to have this experience too.
Speaker 3:But you know, I'm at this point where I can be honest.
Speaker 1:Y'all, I can be honest. Today I'm at peace because my wife and I are closer than ever and I can speak to other brothers about my experience without that shame, without that guilt, because I've processed it and I've learned through my counseling and just becoming a counselor that unprocessed grief becomes toxic. That toxicity will impact and taint any future relationships that you have moving forward the current and the future. So if you don't unpack and deal with those, it's gonna spill out and it's gonna be ugly and messy and can't touch it because those painful emotions have to go somewhere. And so I'm glad that I did the work and placed those toxic emotions of shame and guilt and regret in the toxic chemical treatment plant so that I can come on the other side and speak from a place where I can remember it, but those painful emotions are not connected to those memories anymore. So I'm truly healed.
Speaker 1:But would I want another brother to experience what I experienced? No, I wouldn't. But I'm thankful because now I get to encourage another brother, and with the kind of platform and kind of podcast that you guys have put together, because now I get to encourage another brother and with the kind of platform and kind of podcast that you guys have put together. It gives credence to that brother's pain and it gives space for him to give his feelings validation, as opposed to minimizing them and kind of trying to brush them under the rug.
Speaker 2:And there's something that I was thinking of while you were talking, something that you've been able to process. I say something that I don't think we've talked about, kelly, but in terms of the wound of our minds, we have grieved the loss of our child, but have we taken the time to grieve the loss of ourselves? Because we do create an image of who we are going to be as fathers and that image is gone. You know, there is a vision of happiness, a vision of being able to teach and pass on to your child, to, to your seed. None of that coming to fruition.
Speaker 2:And it was just in some of the things that you were saying, asi and being able to look at your life now, because you've gone through this and you've gone through therapy, being able to look through your life now and being able to say this is who I am now.
Speaker 2:I have gone through this and I see how I've been able to be fulfilled in other ways.
Speaker 2:But if you haven't been able to grieve that and be able to grieve who you wanted to be, how can you move forward and how can you get out of that place of being stuck? And I think it is a lot easier for those of us who have had kids after miscarriage. But, like with your story, there are plenty of people who have had kids after miscarriage. But, like with your story, there are plenty of people who have had miscarriages and have not had children. And so being able to see life the way you're seeing it now, where you have had the ability to grieve not just your lost children, but being able to have grieved your lost person, your personal person and who you are, your lost vision of what fatherhood looks like in your mind, and being able to accept who you are and where you are now, is so important, and I thank you for bringing that really to the forefront of our mind. I feel like this is the go to therapy episode you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, what you're talking about, chris, is the loss of an identity. That's good, yeah, right. Someone who a previous guest talked about it as having a light turned on in the room when he found out that he was going to be a father and then, after that loss, it's like the electricity got cut out and that light just turned off, right. So it's this loss of an identity, now that I know, now that I have this awakening of my imagination, now that the womb of my imagination has formed as a result of my wife saying I'm pregnant, you know, all of that instantly turns on it's. You can't explain it, like, for as much as I try to explain it, it literally is as instantaneous as turning on and turning off a light in the most exciting and joyous way and in the most devastating way when we experience a miscarriage, when we're watching our wives, our partners, experiencing a miscarriage. But, yeah, so it's not just the loss of the identity of a father, it's also, then, the loss of all of the things that were expanding my imaginative womb, as you were about. I'll say, you know, like all of the things that man I've said this on here before watching the the latest creed movie, at the end of the movie, when he and his daughter are in the ring and they're like play boxing together and whatnot. When my wife and I were watching that movie, I started weeping and she looks over at me and she's like are you, are you crying? And I said yeah, because I'm never going to have that experience. Because the context is, I say, one of the, the losses that my wife had, we got confirmation that that would have been our daughter. Wow. So the fact that I'm never going to get that, you know, like, these are things that continue to pop up in my day-to-day life. So, like you, I'm out of place.
Speaker 3:Now and to Chris's point, it's so much easier to almost turn a blind eye to the need, chris, to grieve that loss of identity, because in many regards I'm a father. So did I really lose anything? And I would argue that yes, at that moment, because of the loss of that pregnancy, who I thought myself to be as a father in direct relation to that pregnancy is not the person who I am now as a father to my living children. So that identity has been lost. I am.
Speaker 3:I don't even know how I would be as a father to a daughter, and that's something that I continuously grieve in these moments where it catches me off guard. You know I've spoken about just being awake several months ago at like two o'clock in the morning and then the thought of not being a girl dad just overwhelmed me and I just started crying in bed. Or this instant, watching a movie with my wife, or watching my cousin with his daughter celebrating his daughter, or watching my niece on camera whenever my sister calls me and just seeing how cute and chewable she is, and I'm just like, oh, I want to just hold her, but I could never do that for myself with my own child, right? So all of these are ways that I continue to experience that particular loss.
Speaker 1:So I would call those shadow losses that are related but peripherally right, but it's still the need to realize, man, I am not going to be who I thought I would have become, which doesn't it's not an indictment on who you are now, obviously that's the growth process, that indictment, that condemnation that you absorb and because, again, if you're not careful, you can have that experience and then drag that forward and keep living the same life experience over and over and over again, where you grow chronologically but mentally, emotionally, spiritually, are stuck. That's what you're talking about. That is, and I think just could you, could we imagine how many men are stuck and they're living the same year of their lives over and over and over again. And I think that's where this podcast shines a light on it and says that we need the bottom line is, we need to learn how to grieve. Well, this, this life, is going to life.
Speaker 1:I heard somebody say that this week that's life is going to life and, yeah, there's no avoiding it, there's no getting around it. But with, with miscarriage, I think, that fatherhood, that identity, when, when people look at you and we don't get this and maybe I'm more of the naive kind of oblivious kind of person, but you know, ok, I say he's 46 and you know he's been married 18 years and he don't have a kid, what's going on? What's wrong with them? This and that I don't, I don't hear that, but I know she does and I'm I'm, I'm sensitive to that, now more than ever, now more than ever, and I want to make sure that she gets to grieve that non-experience with me, as opposed to being on an island, and I'm just kind of standing there with binoculars seeing her do that without being emotionally connected to her.
Speaker 1:And I think that's where the growth occurs as men, to be present emotionally. We don't, you know, this society still is not comfortable with that yet, because we have these hyper and aggressive forms of masculinity. But grief is grief. That part is not. I don't care who you are, it's going to hit you in the chin and it's going to knock you down and we have, we have to learn how to grieve. Well, that's all I can think about.
Speaker 3:As we come to to a conclusion. Once again, I want to reiterate just how grateful I am that you have given us so much of not just your time and your experience and your wisdom to. You know dissect, and I know whether or not this is a fruitful conversation for anybody else who hears it. It has certainly been a fruitful conversation for me, and I can't thank you enough for that. The last question I'm going to ask you and then I'll let Chris ask his last question also, and then we'll give you any final words that you want to say after your responses. The last question I want to ask you is, now that you are on this side of things, you've just said that you are a healed man and the healing is not just a one-time thing. You're continuing to heal and to find, to grow in healing. Now that you are on this side of things, if you could talk to the assay of that fourth miscarriage, what would you say to him?
Speaker 1:I would say this sucks. This is hard. I think again. I'm big on this, especially when my mom passed away in 2021. This has been a recurring theme.
Speaker 1:The chaplain there said something to me that I try to make sure I apply and speak over any other brother or the former version of me when dealing with that fourth miscarriage is that you have permission to become the next version of yourself because after the miscarriage, you're going to be a different person than you were before and it's okay. That part, I know, helped me still continue to grieve but to be able to move forward losing mom. But I think that's what I would want to say to my that version of me when we, when I was, experienced that fourth miscarriage you have permission to become the next best version of yourself and don't don't get stuck in this, because there's better Cause. Now I get to pour into my nieces and my. You know what I'm saying. It's different, but we still get a portion of joy to be able to have. You know, like we just had my niece come from Walla Walla. She's over there at Walla Walla College, chris and theology major Sharper's a razor bro, so I'm already like Potomac Conference. Y'all need to open your eyes because this one right here. Potomac Conference y'all need to open your eyes because this one right here. But when we're able to support her from the hell that she's been going through and she looks up to us as father and mother figures, god has blessed us. It's a blessing that I don't know if we would have the bandwidth if we were already parents to do, to be that support. So God has chosen a different lane for us and we have embraced it and I'm thankful for it. I truly am. I truly am thankful. I am If what I do, we want to have a child. Of course, we would love to have a baby boy, baby girl, like you said, hashtag girl.
Speaker 1:Dad, that was. You know, that's a big, you know, just to, just to get your that awesome term. I'm going to forget it. But that, that womb of your imagination yeah, did I say it? Right, to get that going, that's it. It's um, how do we respond to disappointment? To me is more important than how we deal with success, and I think that's one of the journeys that you're helping brothers go along through, this kind of podcast. And so, yeah, it's. How do we respond to disappointment? That's the identity that we need to embrace, as opposed to fatherhood, not fatherhood. Fatherhood is awesome, but I think if that were, for whatever reason, god forbid that would have changed. Do you lose who you were? And I don't believe so.
Speaker 3:Chris, do you have any final things?
Speaker 2:I don't, I don't, I just I'm glad that you were able to come on, I'll say, and again, just being able to share your story and being genuine and sharing your emotions. Again, it's scary to come on. I mean, obviously we're friends, you know, and Kelly, of course, is an overly amazing, inviting person, you know. So it's easier to talk to us, especially as three black men on a podcast, right Facts.
Speaker 3:But knowing that right, which is a beautiful thing, by the way.
Speaker 2:More of this More of this.
Speaker 3:Yep.
Speaker 2:I don't want to understate that.
Speaker 3:Yep, I don't want to understate that fact. Right there, bro, three black man talking about something so devastating that we've all experienced in in such a powerful way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, let's not understate that in any way, shape or form yep, yep, the three brothers podcast, but, uh, that's a rick and morty joke for anyone out there that knows rick and morty anyway.
Speaker 2:Um, but for us to be able to be here, be able to share these things, talk about these things, of course, is important, but, like I said, I say you coming on and being able to be genuine, because it's hard even to say, yeah, those are the first three miscarriages, didn't really, I wasn't really thinking about them that much. That's huge. To say it's huge and then to admit that and then to admit, yeah, I messed up with the fourth one, like it hurt me and I know that's huge, that's absolutely huge. And then to talk about how you've moved forward, the tools that you use to move forward. Man, like Kelly said for me, that was helpful for me. There were things that I started thinking about that I'd never thought about before, so this is helping me move forward with some different things again. So I just thank you for coming on, man, and, like Kelly said for you, sharing your wisdom with us today, man, that was great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and this, this is a beautiful space, y'all that y'all have created. I affirm and applaud you guys and I've looked through y'all have created. I affirm and applaud you guys and I've looked through y'all. But y'all didn't just start this, y'all have been in this and doing this and I'm hoping a lot of other brothers will catch wind of this and start listening and to hear experience, to hear people's story.
Speaker 1:The last thing I would say is that life is short and I think it's one of the beautiful spaces is to take disappointment as opportunity.
Speaker 1:It's an emotional and mental shift that, I think, is men, especially men of color.
Speaker 1:If we're not careful, we can allow all the trauma and the issues and the societal uncomfort that we experience that we're not really allowed to be ourselves more times than not in this space, because if we do, then we get judged, we get labeled, we get attacked, and so to courageously become the next version of yourself after experiencing a loss or a miscarriage, not being able to check that fatherhood box on these applications and things moving forward, I think, or later on, but to still give yourself space to grieve, I think it's one of the healthiest and I think it's the most emotionally aware thing that we can do, that our spouses or our partners desperately need from us.
Speaker 1:They desperately need that we, that they can connect with us emotionally. Women, our women, our wives, et cetera want to connect with us emotionally. If we can, women, our wives, etc. Want to connect with us emotionally. If we can't do it, we hinder the promise of our families, and the modeling that we need to do for our children, especially for our sons, is incalculable. What that means, and so this to me, is the foundation and the safe space that men of color can process their experience without judgment, without condemnation, but hopefully eventually grieving, until they get to the point where they see it as an opportunity to become the next best version of themselves. You.
