The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
E36: Still Parents: Grief, Identity, & Purpose (ft. Still Parents Podcast)
Welcome to episode 36!
This episode shines a spotlight on the brave voices behind the UK-based Still Parents Podcast, as they share their endeavors to create a space for fathers grappling with the grief of miscarriage, stillbirth, and neonatal loss. From the profound silence of grief to the audible laughter that helps heal, we discuss the unbroken bond of parenthood despite the silence of loss.
Ryan, Matt, and Dan candidly discuss the challenges men face when expressing grief. We explore the shifting landscape of support for bereaved fathers, shedding light on the essential role of humor in addressing such profound pain. The Lily Mae Foundation's heartfelt mission, born from tragedy, is highlighted, illustrating how collective experiences strengthen communities of support for grieving parents.
We also reflect on the impact of Pregnancy and Infant Loss Awareness Month, sharing real stories that underline the importance of empathy and understanding. This episode promises to offer insights and strength for anyone supporting or experiencing such profound loss. Celebrate with us the resilience and dedication of those who turn their grief into a beacon of hope, fostering connections that transcend borders and time.
Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
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@miscarriage_support_for_dads
Email: themiscarriagedad@gmail.com
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I remember very, very specifically holding Callie in the room with us and bursting into tears because I said all I wanted to do was be a dad. And one of my friends was in the room at the time and said but you are a dad.
Speaker 2:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. All right, welcome to another episode of the Miscarriage Dads podcast. My name is Kelly and I am your host, and today I am super excited, delighted, actually to be joined by three people who, in all actuality, we've never met physically in person we've done so virtually but they have played such a crucial role in not just the creation of this podcast but in helping me along my own grief journey after my wife and I experienced our multiple miscarriages. And they are the DJ host and the two gentlemen who make the podcast what it is. Actually all three of them do, and so I'm going to ask them to introduce themselves. We have the representatives of the Still Parents podcast out in the UK. So, gentlemen, I don't know how you guys want to do this, but I guess we'll go from the baldest to the most.
Speaker 3:What was that? From the boldest, from the boldest. I'm the boldest, my name is Dan and I work with these two knobheads.
Speaker 1:You're next Paul. Yes, hi, I'm Matt from Lily May Foundation and, yeah, delighted to be here. Kelly, delighted to be here.
Speaker 4:Hi everybody, my name's Ryan. I'm the funny one on the podcast and the one that basically puts it all together along with Dan, so, yeah, I'm quite important really.
Speaker 2:So what I hope people are noticing right off the bat is that, even though this is a serious subject matter and we obviously have really painful experiences, one thing that I've picked up from your podcast is that we don't have to always treat this matter as if there isn't any room for fun, for joking, for some kind of levity, because otherwise it just gets really heavy and really depressing very quickly. And that's one of the things that jumped out at me when I first discovered your podcast, the Still Parents podcast. So before we dive into your collective stories, if you can just give us a sense of how did this idea come up?
Speaker 4:in the UK, the second lockdown in 2020 that we had to abide by. So it was from when? Was it? November 2020,.
Speaker 4:I came up with the idea of just doing a sort of online Facebook live with a group of dads where we could show that it was okay to to talk and to try and take away the the sort of pain of being locked up. Basically, wasn't it? And? And we sort of said, let's give it a whirl, see how many episodes we could do, and we sort of set a limit of about six, didn't we? And then a hundred, and however many later, we're still. We're still obviously powering along.
Speaker 4:But I think that the main thing at the start was to really give a platform to males to be able to speak um where they were, where they were isolated, basically, and and what I call forced isolation, because it wasn't um, they weren't isolating themselves, we were forced to be isolated by the government over here. So it was giving people an option to do something on what was a Sunday evening and giving them a platform to be able to talk and to be able to express their sort of feelings, not just to us, but to whoever was going to be watching at that time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think because everyone was bored, weren't they? By the time the second lockdown came along and we're in our rooms.
Speaker 3:I hadn't known, right, I think I'd known ryan for about yeah, about two or three years at that point and it simply just came across in a conversation let's, why don't we just have these chats, but put them online so that more people can hear about them? And pretty much what ryan said in it. So it started off with a few episodes on Zoom. The episodes are still live. We haven't taken them down because obviously the content remains the same and just as important, even though those first few episodes sounded like we're all doing it from our individual toilets in our little houses in the UK.
Speaker 1:I used to wash up a lot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, matt used to do his washing up at the same time as the podcast, so it's meant all we could hear was like a couple of sentences, then some dishes clinking, then his wife telling him off and then he'd do his next sentence yeah, so that's basically the story of how the podcast started and then we decided we needed a third person.
Speaker 4:So Matt sort of fell into no, I'm joking. So because of my sort of I knew matt anyway, um, through the charity and a lot of the support that we had provided to matt as a charity over the years as well, it just seemed quite fitting to be able to have somebody on um the podcast as a host on the podcast who who had had the support through the charity, through his own individual journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's talk about the charity a little bit. So obviously, the Still Parents podcast is an arm, an extension, if you will, of the Lily Mae Foundation. So give me a sense of what the Lily Mae Foundation does and use that as a launch pad to dive into the namesake of the foundation.
Speaker 4:Okay, so the Lily Mae Foundation is a UK registered charity that supports parents and families who have suffered the loss of a baby, whether that be through stillbirth, neonatal death, miscarriage or a termination for medical reasons. The name of the foundation came about because my wife and I we lost our little girl in 2010 to stillbirth. My wife was 37 weeks pregnant and we always knew we were going to call if it was a little girl, that she was going to be called Lily May, so it seemed very fitting that we started a support organisation at the start to support parents and families who, inevitably, were going to experience the same devastating loss that we had experienced ourselves.
Speaker 2:And so Matt comes through the foundation. Matt, what were the circumstances that led you to uh teaming up with, or to seeking support through the lily may foundation?
Speaker 1:yeah, we. We lost callie in 2016 at 38 weeks and five days. She was a neonatal death because she lived for 27 minutes. Um, and then, um, I basically become I, and then I approached Ryan to basically want to do more and Ryan just said, look, probably best thing to do is come on board as a trustee, on the board of the charity. So I did that and then I just never went away, did I really?
Speaker 4:No, it's like one of those farts in a lift the smell just lingers. We just couldn't get rid of you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's silent, but you know what he's about. I'm so poor.
Speaker 1:And no, I actually didn't have one-to-one support from the Lily May, but me and Crystal, my wife, came to the support groups fairly regularly and I just wanted to volunteer and get involved as much as I could and just do as much as I could in Callie's name as well, really. And then a couple of years ago it came about that I got a job with the foundation and then I really didn't go away. I love what I do and I love being involved with it. And same with the podcast. When we did the first one I said to Ryan and Dan that I wanted to just carry on with it and I wanted to be involved with it. So, yeah, it's been really good.
Speaker 2:Now for both of you, gentlemen, who have experienced the loss of your children. What was the environment like at that time? Did you know of any other organizations? Were there any other resources available to you at the time of the losses? If so, what were they? And if not, how? Did that complicate how you were feeling and processing the loss of your child at that time?
Speaker 4:So in 2010, when we lost Lily, there was limited support within the UK. There were obviously charities bigger, national sort of charities and the odd smaller charity as well but a lot of the smaller ones were focused solely on sort of area of where they're based within the country. So, because we're based in the midlands, which is a few hours north of london, the only real charity was a charity called national sands and they're the still stillbirth and neonatal death society and they had sort of little branches around the country and we saw help from Solly Hall Sands and when we lost Lily, we were given a memory box in hospital and whilst the sentiment was there, there wasn't really much within the memory box to build memories. Really, it was more of a box with things like a candle in or there was a blanket in there, um, whereas I think what amy was looking for was things to be able to, you know, get a handprint, get a footprint, locks of hair, uh, the ability to potentially get pieces of jewelry and things like that.
Speaker 4:So we found very quickly that there was and I don't like using this word, but it it probably explains it better than anything is that there was very much a niche at that time for a charity locally within the midlands, that was going to be able to provide that type of memory box to give parents and families the opportunity to be able to build memories of their baby, because obviously you, you only have a limited amount of time with with your baby. Giving them the option and almost validating and giving them the telling them that it's okay to be able to take a handprint or a footprint or a clay cast or, and giving them permission was sort of our very start point, if you like, from the charity to to really start helping support parents and families who were experiencing the same as us.
Speaker 2:What about you, Matt? How did you experience the what was available or not available to you at the time?
Speaker 1:what was available or not available to you at the time. Yeah, I mean very similar to Ryan, really. We basically almost stumbled across Lily May, because we live half an hour away from where the charity's based, which is a long way in England. It is a long way in England to be fair.
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm thinking about that and I'm like yeah, no, that's not that far from from you, know you like walk half an hour to the park and like like, yeah, it's fine, yeah, we'll fly, yeah, literally yeah, like um. And so I said this quite a lot before, but crystal's I'm not really on instagram or anything, but Crystal's friends kind of changed overnight. As far as her friends on Instagram were concerned, things like this she was able to find other moms to talk to and stuff like that, and then we basically ended up doing the fun run in the September for Lily, may, and then Amy got in touch on Facebook directly to me and said because we all wore t-shirts with Callie's face on, and she got in touch and said the support group's here on a Tuesday if you want it. So we ended up going a couple of months later and that was the first bereaved dad that I'd spoken to since we lost. So we lost in the June.
Speaker 1:Probably around November time was the first time that I spoke to someone who had lost. So we lost in the June. Probably around November time was the first time that I spoke to someone who had lost, and that was, like I said, eight years ago and since then I know I'm part of this world now, but it's become a lot more accessible. We like to think that there's a lot more out there for dads, and yeah, so that's how I found it. So, yeah, it evolved massively, but at that time there wasn't really a huge amount around.
Speaker 2:What was the value of connecting with another bereaved dad and talking to him at the time for you personally?
Speaker 1:I don't want to use the word amazing, but that's basically what it was, because I uh, my, you know, in general, my friends were fantastic, they really helped, they did, you know, they did the best they could. But, like we said many times on this podcast, there is a, there is a certain understanding around when you lose it, lose it, lose a baby, and and um, yeah, so I, when I, when I met um, met people who I could relate to and it was that word relate, that was the most important thing and and and when we, like, when we left the group for the first time, I said to crystal how did you find it? And she said it's the first time I'd felt normal and I think that's a big, that's a big expression, really, and big thing to say because, bear in mind, we'd lost four or five months before and yeah. So, yeah, I think it was just normalizing it and also, I think, as well, it gave me validation around what I was feeling, because up until then, I didn't know whether it was normal to feel and I sound really weird to say, but normal to feel bad around losing a child.
Speaker 1:Should I just be moving on? Should I? Should I be showing emotions. Should I be caring that much? You know, I knew it hurt well more than hurt, but I didn't. I didn't know, was it not having?
Speaker 3:those reference because you didn't have the reference points from from being around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely and and, and, and you know, and it was that whole yeah, it's that whole normalization of the conversation and knowing that other people have. And also I say and again, I say this a lot and this is what I like to think that me and Ryan and other people who have gone through it a while back now I met people who were further on down their journey and it gave me hope that I would, hopefully I would probably feel better at some point, because when you're in it, as you know, you don't know whether you're going to feel better or not. All you can do is live that moment, and it's awful.
Speaker 4:I also think as well is that, following the sort of inception of the charity, if you like, I mean Matt's experience there of speaking to other bereaved dads is the polar opposite to probably mine, in the respect that I could probably count on one hand how many bereaved dads I met after we'd lost Lily, whereas because the charity is so far down the line now and not just the charity but the podcast as well is that any bereaved dad who does gain support through us or through the podcast or through the charity has access to so many more bereaved dads and it's almost.
Speaker 4:You can see the difference over that time period where you're not just reliant upon maybe one person who has previously lost a baby to get the support and to get the advice from them. They lost a baby to get the support and to get the advice from them. There's an opportunity now that there are so many more that have been given a voice and the opportunity to be able to support others all the time. So it's an, it's a, it's an evolution. Really it's an ongoing um support mechanism where, let's say, 10-15 years ago it wasn't that apparent and that parent.
Speaker 2:I want to talk a little bit about the word still in the title of the podcast, the Still Parents podcast, because I have to say that that was the word, and you guys know what I do. Where parents who lose their children or their child, there is almost like this internal conflict because there is nothing that can prepare you for not just the loss but then now how you relate to that loss moving forward. And I think the word still in the title of the podcast is what illuminates this whole universe of grief and how we relate to grief and how do we relate to loss and all of that. So walk me through. I don't know if there was like some deep process when you guys were thinking about what name do we give this? But how did? How did the title? How did you land on the title, specifically the word still?
Speaker 3:that's a really good question. We went into a brainstorming session lasted about um six, seven weeks, um intense daily sessions. We had that, I think, um do you know what? It's a really good question.
Speaker 4:I can't actually remember how we came up with the name of the podcast, but I suppose if you look at it in.
Speaker 3:I think there's an element of what Kelly just said.
Speaker 4:It is the existence carries on isn't it you're still a parent and I think that's where the thinking sort of came around is the still as in. You are still a parent Even though your child is not there, you are still a parent. But then I also think when I know.
Speaker 4:There's the obvious tie-in with stillbirth, the tie-in with stillbirth, but I don't ever think stillbirth has such made, you know, get swayed us in any way. But I think if you look at the, you know the description of what still is and you know, not moving or making a sound. Well, that sort of links into the fact that everything that we've experienced, we've experienced that they're not moving, not making a sound, because your baby's died. So therefore, you've got that. And I suppose that there are lots of different descriptors that you could effectively look at the name and say is it about this or is it about this or is it about this, which then draws the listener in? Is it about this or is it about this or is it about this, which then draws the listener in? And I think that the whole emphasis really was around using that. It's almost like a play on words, isn't it? And sort of saying that you know you are still a parent, but also that word still relates to what you've experienced.
Speaker 1:At the same time, Because I also think as well that um, the word still is very important, because I again I don't know whether ryan felt this, but I certainly did um, you like it's like you lose an identity, like I was. I was all, I was ready to be a dad. I remember very, very specifically holding callie in the room with us and bursting into tears because I said all I wanted to do was be a dad. And one of my friends was in the room at the time and said but you are a dad and that's all I needed to hear.
Speaker 3:That's it, right, that's it.
Speaker 1:But you lose it. But I still, I still in my head, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't get the identity of it because I felt I'd lost that, because I'd lost Callie and I. You know, I didn't know whether I was a parent or not, but until sorry, until I came across the Lily May and spoke to said there, because a lot of what I've noticed, with the guests that we've had on.
Speaker 3:I'm sure you've had with the guests you've had on your show as well. Kelly, is that pretty much what Matt said? There is this little bit of, I suppose, ambiguity over someone who might be new to loss and they still don't know if that is a valid word for them. We've had people who've come on the show, they've lost but maybe they haven't gone on to go and have other children yet, but that doesn't mean that they're not still a parent and I think that possibly, you know, that's where, that's where the weight of the title you know, resonates through that always remember when, when lily was born and I've said this a few times on various promotional videos, interviews and things like that is that you, when, when a baby is born, you naturally feel like sorry.
Speaker 4:You, you naturally almost anticipate that that baby's going to cry. I almost, I think I think I've explained it this way before as well is and I know you guys do they call it an elevator in America, the escalators. It's an elevator An elevator and if you've ever tried walking up an elevator when it's not working and you get on and you feel like oh no, that would be an escalator, yeah, yeah. I don't know what that means and you feel like you're going to move anyway.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost like the anticipation that you're going to get that quiet.
Speaker 3:It's like when you step off, isn't it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that movement, there was a stillness and, as devastating as it was, there was also a calmness at the same time within the room because there was no scream, no cry sort of thing, and I think, like I say, there's a lot of, I like to think, that the name, there's lots of ways that you can look at it and there's no one right sort of reason why we called it Still Parents Podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's what I found so rich about that word right, because what you're talking about is the stillness in relation to the experience of a stillborn. There's also the stillness in terms of the nature of the room, and I've been in those rooms when you're expecting for the child to be doing the things that the child should be doing and it's not happening and just the the, the quietness it's like. It's a very eerie sense of peace and stillness that it's very uncomfortable to exist in and it's also the experience like this is the richness of, of the word. It's also what you experience as a person because your world has just come to a screeching halt. There is no movement after that.
Speaker 2:And I remember several years ago, when I was in my chaplaincy training, I had just left a bereavement and I was called to another building of the hospital en route to another bereavement, and right in between the two buildings there is this corner restaurant right outside the hospital, and I'm walking past the restaurant and I just happened to look inside and it was so jarring to see people enjoying, having a good time, drinking wine, eating pizza, laughing. I mean, there was so much activity going on in that restaurant and that moment just kind of froze in my mind and I was like, wow, here are these two families, their worlds have just stopped and everybody else's world just keeps on moving when I, when I, and that juxtaposition of life right there, isn't it on your journey from one right there, another, and yeah, yeah in between, yeah that's crazy.
Speaker 1:when I carried callie across to the chapel of rest, I took her out, I walked out of the hospital with her and, um and uh, walked past a parent with a car chair with a pink balloon on it, and it was a lovely sunny day and, as you said, everyone was laughing, smiling, joking. It's like why aren't you feeling like me? But then it's not logical, because they're not going through what you're going through, you know. So yeah, it is. There was another one you saw as well.
Speaker 3:Um, didn't you see there was someone? And it compounded at the moment in that that extreme emotion when it was in in the the hours and moments after your loss, and you go outside and you see pregnant people and they're all having cigarettes outside, and that's something else. It's almost when your emotions are heightened you just then notice every other thing which is going to uh, exacerbate where you're already at isn't it?
Speaker 1:you want to shake them. It's like what you don't realize. How look, yeah, how lucky you are. You know, yeah, and that's a big theme that's come out with our guests, isn't it a lot?
Speaker 2:you know, a lot of our guests have said exactly the same thing so this morning I woke up to a comment on the most recent video that I posted on YouTube, the most recent short that I posted on YouTube and the video itself. The content is talking about how, in the United States, every year, about a million pregnancies end in miscarriage. And so my co-host and I, chris, we were talking and I said to him you know, if we just assume that these million women were all together with their male partners, that would mean that every year about a million men are impacted by miscarriage. And this person wrote a comment this morning and said I think I understand what you're trying to say.
Speaker 2:Matter of fact, let me where's my phone. Let me read the comment, because I don't want to misrepresent what she said. I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm so weary of things only counting if they impact men. Men may grieve, but at the end of the day, this is a woman's issue. And I didn't respond immediately because, literally, my son kicked me. I woke up and I was like, oh man, I'm awake now. I turned, I grabbed my phone and that was the first thing that I saw, so I didn't respond to it immediately.
Speaker 3:What was your gut feeling?
Speaker 2:Well, I laid in bed after the pain of my son's kick subsided. I laid in bed and and I thought about it, I thought very deeply about it, as deeply as I could think at five thirty in the morning, and I ultimately responded, and this is my response. I said I appreciate your comment. You're misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I am saying. At no point have we ever implied that things only count if they impact men. I'd be weary of that myself as a man. Men grieve as profoundly as women when a loss to miscarriage occurs. My stated position is that the physiological impact of miscarriage on women is not the sole reason why women's grief should be seen as more legitimate than that of her male partner. While the woman and the man's physiological experience of the loss differs, there's no denying that the emotional, psychological and spiritual devastation and impact is mutually felt by both.
Speaker 4:I think it's a brilliant answer. And then I also think you could even add on to the top of that you look about male mental health, increased suicides in males. It's a non-ending roller coaster. Because that to me spells of somebody who potentially has had a bad experience in a relationship and maybe, quite possibly, hasn't experienced miscarriage in one way, or has experienced miscarriage but has had a bad relationship or been in some form of unhealthy relationship, because I don't believe for one minute any sane individual who has an understanding of grief, whether that be through females, males, whether that be through children, grandparents, whatever it may be. I don't believe that any sane person can honestly sit there and say something like that.
Speaker 3:I think it's a very sweeping statement, isn't it? And I think sometimes, uh, and an intention intentionally being divisive, I think, by saying something of, um, I can't remember exactly verbatim how you said it, but the it's a women issue not anything to do with, say, could you imagine being her boyfriend? That, just, I think that just sums up a lot of it. There's just, there is no, this is already made a mind up, yeah, that this is nothing to do with that entire gender or species or whatever the word today to reference that correctly is do you understand the point, which is ironic because it takes male and female to make a baby yeah, and I and I don't know.
Speaker 3:That's the point, isn't it? I think that is the point.
Speaker 2:That's the point. I think my discomfort was not even with the person, because obviously I don't know who this person is. This is someone who's reflecting their thoughts on a short 50-something clip that they saw on on YouTube, so that you know, taking all of that into context, like that's. That's fine, that it is what it is, but I think it is reflective, though, of this deeper, deeply rooted, underlying thought, belief, assumption I don't know what the right word is that when, when the loss of a child is experienced whether it's stillbirth, neonatal birth, a miscarriage, whatever the case is that when that loss occurs, it is the woman whose grief is more legitimate than that of the man. And in some way, we've taken, as a society, culture and I don't know where this came from or stems from we've taken grief and we've attached it to a specific gender.
Speaker 3:Right and like you, said it doesn't discriminate.
Speaker 2:It doesn't discriminate at all, in fact, to that point.
Speaker 2:Earlier in the week I posted another video online where my co-hosts and I were making that same point in light of the United States presidential, upcoming presidential election, and all of that stuff is here and what's at stake, and you know, the basic point was these are whatever policies has to take into account people, that people's lives are at stake.
Speaker 2:When there is the possibility that policies make it impossible and even illegal for certain life-saving measures to be had, when a woman experiences some kind of loss, that's putting her health and her life at risk, and the greater context of that is, while that is the woman's experience, let's also be mindful of the male partner who will have to inevitably, if that's the case, deal with the fallout and the aftermath of a female partner who is either deceased and now he has to pick up the pieces if they have other children or, whatever the case is, his own pieces to try to make sense of his own life experience, and what have you? His own pieces to try to make sense of his own life experience, and what have you? Or if she ends up incapable of being herself, right, and so she's, she is in rehab or she's in. Whatever the circumstances are, there is a male partner who will also inevitably be impacted by all of that, and so it's not a this political party versus that political party. The issue it's people, it's people.
Speaker 3:I think, um, I think I think, kelly, if you don't mind me saying, I think he hit the nail on the head with that when he said about it's about being mindful, isn't it? Because obviously you know it's, it's. It's the girl who is the woman who goes through all the physical. No part of what we've ever done on this show has ever been about trying to take away from the grief of the woman's anger or dismiss it. It was just offering a platform for men because they don't talk enough to open up, to encourage them to talk if they they want to or, if not, to to just listen. And I think, like we, like I mentioned a moment ago, statements like that from my are quite sweeping and I find those difficult to take seriously because sometimes I think they're doing it just to be on the wind up.
Speaker 3:What I will say, to be balanced, um and uh, to defend her slightly is I also I'm a firm believer in. You can completely lose any intonation of what you're meaning to get across when a conversation is taking place only using words written down, as opposed to having a conversation like we are now. The whole thing might come across differently if you can just get on, you know, have a, have a little dialogue, isn't it? Because I see it with my friends. I think of myself myself. You're almost like a different person the way you write, as opposed to how you speak. Maybe not for everybody, but I do believe that happens a lot. So what I'm trying to say, kelly, is you should get her on your show.
Speaker 4:With us Agreed, say the thing I would also look in another direction as well is if you've got a same-sex couple that have had, let's say, ivf or something like that, and it's two females and the one that's carrying the baby has a miscarriage or loses the baby, does that mean that the other part, that sorry that the other female partner is it's not. You know, the grief is not around there, because they're mirroring what would be the male female relationship. So you know, I agree with Dan that sometimes it's well when people write things you can't. It's difficult to unless you're very well educated. It's very, very difficult to write in terms of what.
Speaker 3:When I read something, I read it in my own voice at me. Yeah, so it's not. The whole tone of it can be different.
Speaker 4:But it would be interesting to see her views if it was two females in a same-sex relationship whereby they'd had IVF, and see what the response would be if it was that way around, because I'm damn sure it wouldn't be the same response as if it was male-female, which makes me think that maybe there is an underlying poor relationship or something like that.
Speaker 3:While I'm finally from me on this, I still still think it's absolutely, it's bloody brilliant that she has felt strong enough to leave that comment, because it's prompted a reaction which in turn will then push, you know, make hopefully the page easier to see. I think in this world I was saying to Ryan earlier like in this world of negativity that we live in and a funny way in which, like algorithms, especially on YouTube, work, the more negative people are, the more chance it is it's going to get pushed up and more people are going to see it. So if it is used as a catalyst to promote a conversation yeah, a sensible one, and one which is not just fueled by ego and the need to be dramatic, then that's actually a good thing.
Speaker 2:Dan, this question is specifically for you because, out of the three of you you have, you do not share this experience, as far as I'm concerned, of having lost a child. Yet you are fully immersed in in this world. You've been doing this with these guys for quite a number of years now, number of years now, and I'm wondering what the vicarious impact of constantly being exposed to not just their stories, but the stories of the guests who you interview. What is that vicarious impact on you and how has that shaped who you are as a person today? Good?
Speaker 3:question. Thank you, man. I think it is a great question. Yeah, so I.
Speaker 3:The reason I got involved in the first place, like I said, because Ryan and Matt are friends of mine. They have been through loss. I haven't, but I do find that I talk for a living. I like to listen and I find these stories I think it's always good to. It was a conversation that I wanted to be part of. I wanted to understand it more. I wanted to be in a position where other friends who had family members or friends who had been in a situation where they knew someone had lost how do they approach it? When is the right time to speak, when's not? And there's still no definitive, correct answer for that. But being part of that conversation I think was really important. I haven't lost myself. I did. My mom went through I think it was two miscarriages before I was born and my sister, who lives in Australia, she's currently going through IVF. She and her partner have had like three or four miscarriages, I think it's three. So it is although it's not directly affecting my world personally, it has in other areas of my family. So the interest comes through that.
Speaker 3:As to the question of how it makes me feel and, without trying to use platitudes and cliche cliches, it is.
Speaker 3:It is very humbling.
Speaker 3:I've mentioned it plenty of times to the guys on the show that I find it's, it's, um, and this is a purely selfish way of looking at it, but I find it very difficult for me to not feel good about, and lucky about, where I am in life.
Speaker 3:Um, after spending time with people who have been through shit that I can't even begin to imagine, and then see how they're handling and how quite often they're still doing way better in their life and in a better place, it would seem, sometimes than I might be in a particular moment. So I've learned that it's it's. It's just made me appreciate what I've got more and again, I'm wary of using cliches, but that really is the the point that resonated with me. It's just, um, appreciate what I've got and not what I don't have. Um, and all of that. I mean you could, you know all the lessons that you hear throughout life, and but it's really made that a much more tangible and real emotion, rather than just words that you hear every now and again that you know you're supposed to believe in.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had anyone approach you specifically you because they've either heard the podcast or they know that you're involved in it in this way, and even though they know that you have not had that personal experience, but they see you now as a safe person to open up to and talk about their own experience?
Speaker 3:As a matter of fact, it has. It was, there was one time which was quite, it was quite surreal actually because you know what I'm going to say here.
Speaker 3:I'm going to have to try and dig out a picture to show you of him as well. I just finished DJing. So the radio station that I work for in the UK, which is called Enderman Radio, so we're in Birmingham, the studios are based up in Liverpool, so I'm up and down, I do my show most of the time remotely from Birmingham, but I was DJing at our festival and there's about 20, 25,000 people who go to this festival. It's called the Reminisce Festival, happens every single year. We just had our 10th anniversary and at the end of it so it's like one.
Speaker 3:In the morning I was walking back to one of the tents because I'd left my bag in there with my laptop for and I was DJing earlier and I went to go and grab it from security. Everyone was clearing out and there's this guy who started approaching me. He was sweating everywhere. He had uh, it was as bold as me, but he was sweating everywhere. He didn't have his top on, he wasn't even carrying it. I don't know where he'd left that. He had face paint on one side. He had just like shit and piss on the other side of him and I just thought, oh, he's coming to, he's coming to rob me that time of night. You know, I was getting ready to say listen, I've got nothing on me apart from a drinks token and half a hot dog, if you want that. And he came over and he just goes and I won't do it. He wasn't, he was slurring a bit but with respect to him. He came over and he said oh, are you, dan? You're the guy who does the elephant in the room podcast. And I said you are. And then I realized he was referring to the name of our first ever episode and I said you mean, there's still parent. He went, yeah, yeah, there's still. He goes. I wanted to say how much that's really helped me because I've only lost. I think at the time this is um in september, so he'd he'd lost about six or five months previously.
Speaker 3:So I got into a chat with him about it because obviously he saw me and I was the person that he was ready to open up to, especially after 12 hours of him drinking. He was quite, you know, lubricated and had a lot to get off his chest and I was completely there for that. But the part that surprised me was that he, he, he clearly heard the podcast and it affected him and he'd made a decision to come to that festival. And I said to him cool, where are your people? And he goes. I'm here on my own. My family's at home, I just needed a day by myself to just take care of what I need to take care. Over here we call it having a blowout, I'm not sure what you refer to it to is over there and, just you know, have a few drinks, dance his whole day away, take off his top, put some face, whatever he needed to do and at the end of that he saw me and he wanted to come over and tell me that's what he'd done and it had helped him. And I found that fascinating.
Speaker 3:So we got a little picture, we did a video. We did a video I'll send it. It's on my phone somewhere and it always stuck with me. I couldn't wait to tell the guys because it's like we just left. Yeah, we just left, they just left. So I mean, obviously I'd gone from one moment shit in my pants that I was about to get robbed to actually this guy was coming over to show a bit of love, despite the fact he was the one going through so much pain, and that that's always stuck with me. So it's um. Yeah, it's, and we got the. Obviously you're wearing our um. I'm glad someone's wearing the still parents podcast hoodie today.
Speaker 3:Oh God, yeah, I mean, I figured you know this was the perfect occasion, so yeah, brilliant, and we, sometimes, when I'm wearing it and you walk into a shop, you can. I've had a couple of people ask um about oh, what's that? What do you do? Um, and then Matt even had it with somebody. Uh, a parent came over. In fact, you might as well take over from it we.
Speaker 1:We were out in Birmingham, uh, in in the city center, last year, um, or maybe earlier this year, I can't remember when it was anyway and we'd had, we'd had a. We, the three of us me, chris Lynett had been out for some food and we were sat in, um in the restaurant and then, um, there was a family behind us and like they had a little baby with them and like etta interacted a little bit with the little baby and stuff and that kind of thing, and I had my hoodie. I had my hoodie on cut seen, as I've got absolutely no star star watch and I wear my hoodie pretty much everywhere I go, so that's the only thing I normally wear. And I went to the toilet, came back and Crystal said our meal's been paid for and I went what? And she went.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the waiter came over and told us the family behind us had noticed my hoodie and they didn't make a scene. They literally just went onto the waiter and said when they finish and get your bill, we will, we will foot their bill. So just tell us what it is and we'll pay it. And it was like I mean, I just say I was blown away, it's just unbelievable. And then we took, we spent the next. He'd only had a portion of chips.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he went straight back in and ordered a mixed group.
Speaker 1:We spent like the next kind of 15 minutes walking around town trying to find them, but like we couldn't, yeah, just to thank them really, but it was. It was an incredible, yeah, incredible moment. You know, it wasn't a small bill and they literally just said they'd said you paid for because they know. Then the words the way to us. They noticed your hoodie and what you're wearing that way, so, yeah, wow yeah, what's fascinating about that.
Speaker 3:It just, it was just yeah it was just it just took my breath away that he came over for that and um, yeah, because he obviously didn't need to and he was in an emotional position anyway. But um, yeah, that was it.
Speaker 2:I don't think he remembered the next day, but but that's, but that's, that's okay, right, because what I? Think is fascinating about about your presence in as part of of this podcast. Is you represent an entire demographic of people, right? Because? So bigger context of when this conversation is happening, this is in October, and October is pregnancy and infant loss awareness month, and you guys just came off of releasing a series of mini episodes for a baby loss awareness week, which is not a thing here in the U?
Speaker 2:S but it is Right and I was week, which is not a thing here in the US, but it is in the UK, right, and I was. I had the pleasure of chatting with you guys for for a while during that miniseries and one of the questions that you know you raised during this past week is who is the awareness for? Because, for Ryan, for Matt, for myself, for you, dan, who's immersed in this world now, not by personal experience, but vicariously, this is something that we live every single day of our lives, right Like, our lives are never again the same, because there's never a moment after the loss of a pregnancy or the loss of a child that we're not thinking about or being, you know, reminded of in some way, shape or form our loss. So the awareness is clearly not for us, but you, dan, you represent an entire demographic, literally everybody else who has not had that experience and the interest that you show in wanting to understand people's experiences, who've been through that, wanting to be more sensitive to how to talk to them, how to relate to them, identifying yourself, whether you know explicitly or implicitly, whether you know explicitly or implicitly, that's what this is all about.
Speaker 2:Right Like. That is the reason why having your platform and podcast and charity, having this platform and podcast and so many others like. That's why it's so needed and so necessary, because there are so many people walking around and they're hurting and they just need somebody to talk to. And who knows who I can talk to, because, you know, you can have comments where people say some really stupid and hurtful things and that's not what that person needs, right? That's not what that person needs, right? That person needs someone who is sophisticated enough to acknowledge their experience and to just be like yeah, I'm going to listen to you in a different way, in a way that you know, as you know yourself doing yours with the content that it is.
Speaker 3:It's quite a tough sell to get people to. You know why in the first place would someone who's lost a baby, lost their child, want to listen to a podcast which is going to remind them straight away about the worst thing that's happened in their life? If you haven't lost a child, if you haven't lost your baby, why are you going to listen to a podcast which has got absolutely no reference or relatability to you and your world? So hopefully, um, the some of the value that I can add by being on with and we're not a manufactured team. We are a bunch of friends who've decided to do a podcast which has gained a bit of traction. So hopefully, the the uh, the chemistry between us and making it as honest and as real and as raw as we can. You know we can be a bit rough around the edges, but we are reflecting real life. We might get a bit potty mouth at times, but if I can bring in people such as myself to go, actually, this podcast is for you too. Hopefully there will be a bit of humor in there.
Speaker 3:It's not just going to be completely. You know you need to have some light with the shade, because that's real conversations and we'd like to use, you know some stereotypical, I suppose, guy chat or banter as a way to make guests feel comfortable and and as a result of doing that, they feel more, um, likely. Or it's easier then to open up and use the, the vehicle of men, chat, bollocks, as a way to get that conversation going, all of those elements. If I just came in with someone I'd never met in my life and said, hi, this person's uh, hi, this is uh, this is kelly, um, hi, kelly, nice to meet you.
Speaker 3:Thanks, coming on the show, tell us about your baby loss, it's not, you're not going to get that effect, and so for me, coming at it from the angle of, I don't know what it's like either, but this is what I've learned and I know the nuances of your situation is going to be different from Matt and from Ryan's. So I think that's where we can cover a lot of the same points. But obviously there are millions and millions of different ways a loss can happen in a similar way. So be able to have those conversations and you teach me about it Because. So, being able to have those conversations and you teach me about it because, look, like I said, my sister and her partner Renette. They live in Australia and they're going through IVF and so she feels, like you know well, she has, she's already lost children and she's my sister better prepared to be able to talk to her or, more importantly, listen to her, armed with the knowledge that I am now armed with, compared to three years ago when I was very naive to the whole topic.
Speaker 2:As we try to land the plane. First and foremost, thank you again for making the time to finally come on the podcast. It's been incredible to have you guys on.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having us on. Sorry, it took so long. It was these two fault. I was always ready for it. Yeah it's a.
Speaker 2:Kelly, thing we are a lot more flexible than Max and. Ryan's yeah, absolutely yeah, ryan, I saw recently that you had you got a a special recognition well, firstly, thank you very much.
Speaker 4:Um um, we were talking about this actually on the last podcast, weren't we? Yeah one of these people. I I hate accepting, like let's say, a present. For instance, at christmas on one of these I have to go to another room to open my presents away from everybody else, cause I just don't like doing it in front of other people.
Speaker 1:It's so awkward.
Speaker 4:It's awkward because I'm as chuffed as I am that I've obviously been recognized and I've I've got an award. I'm I'm I'm slightly embarrassed by it as well, because I'm not that sort of person. But yeah, I've been. My wife and I, amy, we've both been awarded honorary doctorates by Coventry University for our work sort of around the charity sector and specifically within baby loss and the support that we offer to bereaved parents, and medical research and so forth.
Speaker 4:So, yes, it's absolutely nice to be rewarded and to be acknowledged for the work that we do, even though you know we don't do what we do for reward at the same time, because reward enough is knowing that the support that both myself, amy, and other people that work for the charity are offering and providing to bereaved parents is reward enough within itself where you can see them come in as one person and leave in a completely better place. So in terms of reward, you know that eclipses anything. But yeah, it's certainly nice to be acknowledged. And yeah, I've got to go to a graduation on the 22nd of November, so I actually graduated back in. When did I graduate? I graduated from my own degree, which I did in in 2005, so it'll be nice to go back to exactly the same university 20 years later and accept this award.
Speaker 3:Do you have to wear one of those gowns and throw your hat in the air? Yes, I'm coming.
Speaker 2:So here's the real question. Here's the real question If you're on a plane and someone says we need a doctor, do you step up?
Speaker 4:Don't get Ryan because he's not a real one. My response would be doctor who? No, I'm not one of those doctors. I'm sadly not medically trained, although actually that was my dream job when I was younger. I would like to have been a doctor, but it's like on the hangover, isn't it?
Speaker 1:when he says you said that several times, but you're actually a dentist, you're not a doctor, so you should're not a doctor.
Speaker 3:Yeah that's true, so you should still call a doctor.
Speaker 4:No, so I'm not a real doctor. No, I'm a what I can't think of what the word is.
Speaker 3:So if I gave you a prescription, could you sort me out?
Speaker 4:Yeah, right Prescribe you some.
Speaker 1:Yeah right.
Speaker 2:All right, really quickly, the reason why I wanted you to talk about that, ryan, and really the reason why I wanted to talk to you guys, it's because, big picture, like the macro perspective, the loss of a child, however it happens, is the most painful thing any human being could ever endure under any circumstance Like there's nothing quite like it, and it's crippling, it is paralyzing, it is disorienting, it just completely throws everything out of order, out of whack, out of balance, and it can lead you and I'm sure both of you have experienced this, you've said this yourselves it can lead you into a very dark place internally, and also it can it doesn't have to stay that right. There are ways that people who men in in particular who experience the loss of a child, for, as painful as it is, it's not a matter of getting over it, it's not a matter of pretending like it doesn't exist or it didn't happen or any of that stuff. It's a matter of how then do you take that pain and what do you do with it now? What is your response to it?
Speaker 2:And I think you know receiving that honorary degree, that recognition, was such a and I've only known you guys virtually number one, but only for a couple of years and even seeing that I was like, oh man, I'm so proud of Ryan, you know for for for such a great, uh, distinguished honor that's been bestowed on you by this university and and.
Speaker 2:And it speaks to not just the charity work and not just the podcast work, but it speaks to the internal work that you have done and you continue to do, to get up every morning and continue to do the charity and the podcast work. And I think that's the the major thing and I know you guys would agree. I think that's the major thing that I would want anyone who's experienced the loss of a child to at least plant that seed in the back of their mind. Like, in the moment you're not trying to hear that and I'm not trying to tell you that, but as the journey unfolds, the possibilities are endless as to how that grief can can can go from being the most devastating thing to actually being the most beautiful gift that one could receive and do something with.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, I absolutely agree, I do.
Speaker 4:I agree, when they first come in in such a devastated psychological state or even in physical, you know, not taking care of themselves or something like that to then seeing them further down the line is definitely reward within itself.
Speaker 4:But, yeah, you're absolutely right, I think that if anybody let's just put it like this, if I can do it, anybody can do it. And that's the way I sort of look at it is that you know, yes, it's hard at the very beginning to get out of bed and put one foot one foot sorry in front of the other every single day and do the same thing every single day. But the reward is seeing the, the, that, the charity, that the podcast such as ours, but yours as well, and other podcasts that are around the benefit that that is having on so many bereaved parents and I don't use the term men now, I mean parents in general, because it's not just an individual journey, it's a journey that is both carried within partnership or within family, within friendship groups. So it's, yeah, absolutely, it is nice to be rewarded, um, and you know, I dedicate that reward to, to lily, and and everything that she's instilled in me to be able to do with this charity and with the podcast.
Speaker 3:I know we banter and joke around a lot, but I will say, on a serious note to back up, that I see how hard Ryan works and how much of a man of action both of these gents are, and it's fully deserved, with what they've been through and the fact that not only do they still deal such as yourself, kelly, with your job and also doing this podcast you live it every single day, not only your own groove, but other people's. So, to keep coming back and stepping up to the plate and going through what you go through and also helping other people and seeing the energy because it is their life, from the moment they wake up every day to when I'm sending them voice notes at two in the morning, this is and they're absolutely phenomenal. And that also links back to the the question you asked me earlier on if to to just see how much they put themselves through every day. Um, it's quite, it's quite inspiring, and ryan hates it.
Speaker 3:When I get mushy, he sends me um offensive voice he sent me offensive voice notes back, but I bloody mean it, you know. So they are to the most. I've mentioned this in the podcast. I'm 46 years old now and I always thought there was a rumor like, once you get to a certain age, especially as a man, you can't make new friends, and I've been very happy to find out that that's actually not entirely true, because these are two of the greatest people I've ever met in my life. The only bad part about that is, if they hadn't lost their children, we we probably would never admit. So that's the, that's the paradox of it all. But yeah, they're very special people and I think they're brilliant I actually received it.
Speaker 4:I got an email um a few weeks back and I think this just sort of sums it up, really, and what dan's just said there and what we all do, both on podcasts and things like that, is that this couple had one.
Speaker 4:So the email says we um, we've had one-to-one support from ryan and amy and listened to all of the podcasts and, being a guest and this was really the first time I've heard the detail of their story, seeing them as a support network it is so easy to miss seeing them as bereaved parents, even though the fact they're bereaved is key, and it was so nice to have this presented to me and I think that's where some people can quite often get lost is that, yes, they see what we do, but also we do we carry it every day because we are still brave parents ultimately, aren't we? We? We have we. We have the same needs as everybody else. We're just a little bit further down the road and all we're able to do is offer our experience and our lived experience to those people that are in their hour of need all right.
Speaker 2:Then you say you wanted to play something right quick, so send us off with.
Speaker 3:Uh, I've also sent it to your um, your instagram, so you can see it later in case this doesn't come out very well. But you know the guy I referred to at that festival yes there's a hit. I found it. Yeah see, if you, if you can't hear it, you can play it yourself. All right, matt. So this lad his name's chris. There he is, he just. He just came over and said I said I'm going for the word you do every podcast elephant in the room and that we're going to get him on.
Speaker 3:We're going to get him on, maybe, maybe. Not sure if you understood a word he said.
Speaker 3:I didn't understand a word he said Because he's from Liverpool, so he's a scouser and he was off his face. But you can see what I mean and he was a lovely bloke. When I look back at the video and you look into his eyes, you could kind of like see the pain there, Um, and how like he was got. He got emotional coming over, Um, but yeah, he, he, he was amazing and it really stuck out. So I thought after um, yeah, I just wanted to add some context to the story. So there you go.
Speaker 2:Nah, that's beautiful. That is beautiful. Gentlemen, I can't thank you enough for not just coming on to the podcast today, but again for and I've conveyed this to all three of you before and the content that you put out around this very sensitive topic. Like you said, then, the energy that all three of you combine to make the Still Parents podcast what it is, and I'm sure your work also for the Lily Mae Foundation is inspirational to me. So I look at you all and I see you all as models, as heroes, as the template.
Speaker 4:Thank you. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Right back at you, Kelly. The feeling's mutual. So unfortunately, like you said, unfortunately we all meet this way, but the fact that we're in different countries and part of the reason we're doing this is to bring that awareness out so let's see where we are in another six months, 12 months from now.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thanks for watching.
