The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
A podcast dedicated to humanizing the experience of miscarriage, and normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers.
The Miscarriage Dads Podcast
The Unspoken Agony of Life after Multiple Miscarriages (Re-released)
Hello!
This week's episode recalls the conversation we had in episode 14 with Sophie, founder of Miscarriage Mumma Support, in March 3, 2024. We hope you find listening to this episode again as helpful as we've experienced it to be for us.
For more information visit www.miscarriagemumma.com.
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Sincerely,
Kelly & Chris
And I remember people saying to me oh, you're never. You know, if you have a kid you'll be really tired. And I have never felt tiredness like I did when I was trying to conceive, and that feeling of every month. You desperately want to be pregnant but at the same time you're so scared to be pregnant that you almost hope that you don't and you just live in this kind of weird place of hope and complete fear. Place of hope and complete fear. So, yeah, we, after the first loss a hundred percent, I think I probably did become obsessed with just wanting to have a baby at that point. And then, after every loss, I kind of thought this isn't going to happen and we went for private through private um medical care to try and get answers and they just kept saying it's just bad luck, there's nothing we can see or can do to help, and then you just feel like you're like battling everything.
Speaker 3:This is the Miscarriage Dads podcast, a podcast humanizing the experience of miscarriage by normalizing dads openly talking about its impact on us as men and fathers. Thank you for joining us for another episode of the miscarriage dad podcast. My name is Kelly and I'm your host, and I am your co-host, chris, and Chris and I are very excited to be joined by two guests. One of them was fully scheduled, the other one decided to make a spontaneous cameo appearance, so the little cough that you're hearing in the background is my son, eden.
Speaker 3:Last episode, chris, I told you he was turning one and he turned a year old. We had a good birthday party for him with some friends and family that showed up, and then this past week we were in the hospital with him because I guess my little guy is a party animal. We're in the hospital with them because I guess my little guy is a party animal and he partied a little too hard. So that's Eden, but we are. Thank you, edie, but we are more excited to have another guest with us all the way from across the pond. So I'm going to go ahead and ask you to please introduce yourself.
Speaker 1:Okay, so my name is Sophie. I'm not sure that I can do quite a good introduction, as Eden did, but my name is Sophie, I live in England and I run Miscarriage. Mama Supports.
Speaker 3:Sophie and I, chris, we connected on Instagram a while back and once we started having this series of conversations, you and I both agreed that it would be important and also would add a lot of value to bring in a woman's perspective, as well as a feminine voice, to the podcast. Right, and I reached out to Sophie and she was gracious enough to give me a couple of dates, and so we're excited to have you here, sophie. Thank you so much for staying up late your time, because what it's about? 9, 9.20 your time right now, pm.
Speaker 1:Yeah, 9.20. Past my bedtime, but yeah, I'm excited to be here, thank you time, but, yeah, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3:Thank you, uh, chris and I have been talking about the topic of trying again after a miscarriage and we've had several conversations where we've highlighted aspects of our experience. Because you are a new guest to the podcast, I'm gonna ask you to give us in in summary form but it doesn't have to be you to give us in summary form, but it doesn't have to be brief. But give us in summary form sort of what your story is and you know, just to kind of lead us into the topic of life post a miscarriage.
Speaker 1:So I am a miscarriage member. Basically, following my experience with four losses, we weren't really trying for too long, I guess maybe nine months before I fell pregnant, and naively, obviously we were very excited. We told people close to us. And then the day before my husband's birthday I woke up in excruciating pain, heavy bleeding. Went to the A&E who kind of said, oh, you might be miscarrying, you might not be, we don't know. So just go home, um. But then obviously go on Dr Google, don't you, which is not your best friend.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it just kind of went downhill from there and I felt I feel like now looking back, that for me that was kind of the end of who I was and the start of who I am now, and I think my losses after that, the more I had, they kind of just became my norm, if that makes sense, um. So then I went on to fall pregnant again, went to my 12-week scan, um, just after, but on Christmas Eve I experienced some bleeding, so I kind of knew what path we were going down. Anyway, went to my 12 week scan where they said that someone would call me and handed me a leaflet on miscarriage and that was kind of it for the next 48 hours, would call me and handed me a leaflet on miscarriage and that was kind of it for the next 48 hours, um. And then I went into hospital to have um, a medically managed miscarriage, and then, um, I went on to fall pregnant again pretty soon. I think that was probably about three months later.
Speaker 1:And then I was actually in um Florida, because my in-laws lived in Florida at the time and had another miscarriage. And then in the following October I was in Florida again, um, and had another miscarriage then. And then in the UK we've got a policy where you have to have three losses before they do any testing, um. So I just felt really alone before that and we didn't really have any support or any direction. I didn't really know where to go. So, which is where Miscourage Mama came from, and yeah, I've just kind of built from there really on with that. But I did go on to have um, a little girl who's now three, which feels like an absolute miracle. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell.
Speaker 4:So I've had. I mean, it's not the same as yours, right, but I've experienced one with my wife. Of course, you know Kelly's story and just hearing you say you know that you've been through so many losses in that way I mean how? Because we're talking about the idea of trying again I heard you say when you started, um, that you weren't even really trying like that. Did that change after that? Because you have the one miscarriage was there. Were you trying the second time? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So this is a topic that I talk with people a lot and I think once you've had a loss because I've never had that desire really to die desperately wanted to have kids it was kind of something that I thought would be a nice idea. I quite like the idea of fostering at some point, but I never had that extreme kind of drive to have a child. But the minute I had that loss it was like something completely changed in me and that's all I wanted. So nothing else in my life really mattered. I was just almost obsessed with it and I remember people saying to me oh, you're never. You know, if you have a kid you'll be really tired.
Speaker 1:And I have never felt tiredness like I did when I was trying to conceive and that feeling of every month you desperately want to be pregnant but at the same time you're so scared to be pregnant that you almost hope that you don't and you just live in this kind of weird place of hope and complete fear. So, yeah, we, after the first loss a hundred percent, I think I probably did become obsessed with just wanting to have a baby at that point and then after every loss, I kind of thought this isn't going to happen and we went for private through private medical care to try and get answers and they just kept saying it's just bad luck, there's nothing we can see or can do to help, and then you just feel like you're like battling everything can we, can we talk about that obsessed part?
Speaker 3:can can we spend some time really unpacking that and exploring that?
Speaker 3:because, I appreciate you, I appreciate this level of transparency already just saying that and admitting that, because that was so what it felt like for me as well. To the point that you know, chris, like I've said to you before, I started asking myself the question why do I want to have a kid so bad, especially because we had my oldest one already, right? So we had my wife and I experienced two losses first, and then we had a successful full-term pregnancy and then afterwards we had another two miscarriages and it was like why are we at both sides of this? Before we even had a successful pregnancy and even after, the question remained why were we? Why was I forget my wife? Why was I so obsessed with wanting to have another child? So can we explore that obsession piece a little bit? What? What is your now that you look back at your story? Yeah, and you're, and you you've had this conversation before. Talk me through, talk us through that obsession piece.
Speaker 1:I ended up giving up my business completely because I could not focus my. I got to a really dark place and, um, I remember one summer I was just looking for places to call just to get help, because I was like this just isn't normal, it's all I can think about, and I wasn't really seeing anyone or going out anywhere or doing anything. I was just obsessing about was I going to be pregnant? And then any kind of symptom that I could read into which you know hundreds of symptoms, isn't there. That could possibly be pregnancy. I'd be like, right, this is it, this is it, I'm okay, now I feel good. And then you, it wouldn't be that month or, and I remember going to the doctors and just saying I am losing my mind, I'm not doing my business anymore, I don't go anywhere, I don't do anything. And they I mean the doctors weren't particularly great but they just said well, you need to go on the contraceptive pill because that's the only way to stop this obsession, which obviously wasn't an option for me at all because I wanted to have a child.
Speaker 1:Um, but I got to a really dark place where I that's all I focused on, and I remember my uncle called me and he was just talking about my mental health and I was saying, you know, I can't focus or give energy to anything else in my life. I'd had really, really dark thoughts and then two weeks later, my uncle actually died by suicide and that for me I was like right, I've got to stop obsessing about this, because at the time, I was pregnant actually. So, yeah, sorry, I was pregnant with my rainbow child then, but I was like, well, she's not going to last, it's not going to stick, this pregnancy isn't going to be come of anything, and it was just like it just ruins my mental health, like I can't even explain it. It just ruined everything in my life, I think, because that's all I could focus on.
Speaker 1:It's funny you should say you thought about why do I even want a child? Because I remember reading something on Instagram and it said oh, before you try for a child, you should always say why or ask yourself why is it you want a baby? And I was like I don't even know anymore. It's just because now I feel like I'm fighting this battle and I've got a challenge that I want to win ultimately. So, yeah, it was just that part right. I just don't think there's even there's no tiredness like trying to conceive after loss. I don't think like it's so, so draining.
Speaker 4:And it sounds like, and maybe I should ask does that drainage come from trying again with the knowledge that things could go wrong? Just because one of the things that me and Kelly were kind of exploring was the increase in knowledge of things going wrong as you go further and further and the more miscarriages you have.
Speaker 4:Um just because I know, for me, a loss was never something that entered my mind. I never thought that, um, my wife could lose another child. I mean, like I said, uh, we've only experienced one. I've only experienced one, um, but I had my oldest son, chris, first, and then my wife uh had that miscarriage, um, so because she had it first and had chris first, you know, I'm cool, the second one comes, I'm excited, everything's great because we're gonna have another child.
Speaker 4:Then all of a sudden, it's all gone yeah so in your mind, I mean, is it because you're trying and it's not working? And you're trying and it's not working? If you could walk through that just a little bit for me, those feelings, because again you're pushing and pushing, but, like you're saying, it's pushing you further into this dark place where this is your only focus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, focus, yeah, yeah. So I think I was just really naive originally in the fact that it never crossed my mind once about having a loss. And you hear all the time, don't you, the statistics. And after our first one, the doctor said, oh, you know, statistically you'll go on to have a successful pregnancy. And then after the second, it was like, well, statistically it's only going to be like one in however many.
Speaker 1:And then after the third one, it was like, oh, well, statistically, and it like, I don't know, it was just, it just didn't cross my mind. And then I just became this statistic that statistically shouldn't be happening. And, um, yeah, it was just. I was just very naive to start. And then after each one, I think you don't have the almost luxury of that naivety, do you? Because you know the harsh realities of pregnant and you know what can go wrong. And we had a scan, we saw a heartbeat. So, even after every scan, then it became the scans are just irrelevant to me at this point, because I had a scan before and it still went wrong. And yeah, it's just really difficult because you are just more exposed to things you don't want to be exposed to.
Speaker 4:And it sounds like what you're saying too is those signs which would seem like good markers for other people. Like you said, uh, you're completely discarding because you've been to those markers before and yet you've still ended up in what will, what, what I want to call failure. You know of course it's more.
Speaker 4:It's more than what we call failure, just a failure, but um, wow it. It's just so interesting to hear, um, because, like you were saying, with your focus being solely on this thing and losing focus on some of the other things, and I think that's an aspect of this entire thing that I've never even really thought about or explored myself. Um, now, of course, like I said, I've only experienced one. So, in my case, yes, I was focused on it, but after we had our miscarriage, amber became pregnant again, and that one was successful. Now, we haven't tried since, but I could only imagine that if we had tried again and it failed, now again those questions come in your mind.
Speaker 4:Why do I want to have kids? Why do I want to try again? But I know deep down inside, if Amber said I want to try again and we just lost one, I would have said, yes, no problem. But how does it feel opening yourself up again to that, opening yourself up to that possibility of failure, especially after you've been through failure before and failure before and failure before? How do you get to that place of saying I've experienced this before, but I'm still going to try again?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I'm quite fortunate that my husband's really positive, so his outlook on everything's really positive, and he was just like you know, there's nothing. There's nothing that's causing it. There's no reason that we're not going to have a child. Yes, it's really hard, but there's not a reason to stop us. But I think I think if I didn't have his positivity I probably would have not bothered trying again.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't really know the point that it was like it was just I was just scared all the time, I think, and it was just that dog with a bone kind of attitude of now I just want to have a baby. So if this is just going to keep being the way it is, the more losses I had, the more numb I was becoming emotionally. Anyway. But like we've had our little girl now and I've said there's absolutely no way that I want to try again, um, ultimately we wanted to have a baby. We've got a child, but I know full well that I could not mentally put myself in a place to try again what were those conversations with your husband?
Speaker 3:like, um, if you, whatever you feel comfortable disclosing, take us into those conversations with your husband, because you just said he's a very optimistic person and you are, you're obviously the one experiencing this in a way that Chris and I and your husband will never and have never experienced. So what kind of things were you saying to him? What kind of things were he respond? How was he responding to to the things that you were saying to him? Take us into the, the heartbeat of those conversations he was really keen to continue trying.
Speaker 1:He was always wanted to be a dad. He was very honest about that from early in our relationship. It would be I would be like, no, I'm done, I'm absolutely done, and then the next day obviously your emotions completely changed. So then I'd be like, right, I think I'm ready to try again. It was just to be honest. I think it was just. Every day was different, but he was always very respectful and had I said, no, I'm done, I don't want to try, he would have been completely fine.
Speaker 1:And after the first loss we waited probably six months before trying again or even having conversations about it. So, yeah, it varied because then after the second and third, we probably only waited about two months before trying again, and then after the fourth we probably waited about six months. Because that was when I was like, oh, I really don't know if I want to keep going for this. And then luckily we did because we had our little girl, but I don't know if there was really set conversations. I kind of it just really depended on my mental health and where I was, which is pretty sad to say actually, because obviously he was experiencing a really tough time as well, like he's obviously lost a baby. He's watching his partner all over the place and kind of not really dealing very well with life and yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty brutal process.
Speaker 3:So so here you guys are going through this together, right, and to the point that you just mentioned, he's having to watch you, I mean just in a really bad place in your life, because you want this thing and also because he wants this too. It seems to me from what you said that he's also. He also joined you in in this quest to become a father. And do you think, unspoken between the two of you, there was the sense of I want to make him a dad and from his part, I want to make her a mom and from his part I want to make her a mom, and sort of that being the driving force that kept you two going until you were able to have your baby girl?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I think he used to always say to me because I get really frustrated and say oh, you know, you're not struggling and I'm really, I'm finding this really hard and you're just positive all the time. You're going through life and, um, we have a joke about it. And we were running peer groups, um, and it became a bit of a standing joke that he so my husband works in IT or technology and, um, he's really not into DIY, but he built this fence.
Speaker 1:He was like painting stuff, he was doing loads of different things and I was like how is he just taking up all these like hobbies and doing all this stuff? And then when we spoke about it, he said, oh, you know, one of us has to be up here so the other one can be down here and we'll swap at different points in life. But my distraction was trying to build a fence or and you know, I could take my anger out on if my fence fell down and things like that. So, um, yeah, it was pretty lucky that he kind of just held us up for a bit, but then was obviously struggling himself, which I didn't see and didn't appreciate at the time when did you see it?
Speaker 1:I think it was probably after our daughter was born and we set up miscarriage mama and we're running the peer groups. I think that's when I sat and I was obviously listening to him talk to other people and I think that was the point. I just thought that he's not even had the space to grieve how he needs and and then I kind of was okay with life and I was kind of rebuilding. Then he really had a massive drop then and it was like, oh, he's like really not had the space to deal with this.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of times because it physically happens to women and obviously we our hormones all over the place, I think we kind of take a lot from our partners and people around us, but we really don't sometimes we just need to take a bit of a step back, I think, and realize that you know you have to work as a team and you both have to have space to grieve in this.
Speaker 1:And I think, um, before I commented on one of your posts saying about being present, and you know you both need to take that time to be present to kind of think about it and acknowledge how you're feeling as well, as I think there's an expectation on men just to carry on and women are allowed to just sit in this kind of emotional pit for a little bit. And yeah, it's bad to say but there's, there's a lot. We spoke to quite a few couples and we've got quite a few people who we speak to just female-wise and yeah, they were like oh, actually I don't think we even gave our partners a chance to grieve. Yeah, sadly it wasn't until our daughter was born. So yeah, it's a bit of a regret of mine, I think.
Speaker 4:Coming from the male side of this, first of all, it's completely understandable. Like you said, as a woman, you're physically going through this. You've got hormones and all sorts of things that are going on. I remember when my wife had to pass the baby. I mean the baby did make it past three months, so I think she passed it at about four. I didn't know it was going to be like that.
Speaker 4:So, I was just trying to give her all the support that I could as a man, I should say as a man that is wanting to support his spouse, his wife, you know, because there are those physical things that you go through, it does feel like as, like the man, as the husband, you've got to be there to help because you're the one who's going through it right now, you know. But, like you said, I do think it's important, when that is done, to be able to create that space. But you know, the thing is and I try to tell this to myself, looking back on things, you know, is I'm trying to do my best to not feel guilty about those times.
Speaker 4:Because, of course I have guilt and everything too, but when you're going through it it's messy and I think you know that's one of the reasons why Kelly wanted to start this on this podcast, especially talking about for men and everything, but just realizing how messy it is on both sides. I'm sure your husband he might have already said the same thing, because it sounds like he's pretty awesome.
Speaker 4:So he might have already said this to you, you know, but just allowing the space for grace for yourself. You know you're always going to regret, um, and you always look back with a little bit of guilt, of course, um, but just understanding that, okay, yeah, you could have done more. But at the same time, he understood, yeah, um, because if he didn't, he wouldn't be with with you now or there would be something, um that you guys would probably be fighting with now. But it sounds like, from what you said, he. He even told you hey, I was just trying to hold you up because my time's going to come and I'm going to need you to hold me up, and I think that's.
Speaker 4:It's an oddly beautiful thing that can happen. That when, when these things happen you know and of course I'm not, I'm not trying to disparage our single people that might be listening Maybe you don't have that significant other, but that bond that is created when you do have someone that's going through it with you, whether you're married or not, having that other person that's going through it with you, that other person that has parented that child or is fathered that child, it's really important. It's really important and, like Kelly said already, I mean I thank you for your transparency in those moments and just being able to share with us those things.
Speaker 3:What is the toll that these losses have had on you from your experience and your perspective as a woman, and what I mean by that is for me? I started asking myself all sorts of questions about the quality of my manhood and masculinity and the times that we couldn't carry any of our four losses to full term. Yeah, so I'm talking about that. What is the impact? What is the toll? What is the? How did Sophie look at herself in the mirror during those moments and beat the crap out of herself as a result of those losses?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really good one and I think a lot of people would relate to this, but maybe not talk about it. But I think my relationship with my body is, I mean, I've never been particularly confident, but I just felt like my body's failed me and the one thing that we should you know, everyone goes on about how natural pregnancy is and this, that and the other and I just felt like my body failed me and I think then I lost any interest really in eating, well, exercising, so you're almost like it's like self-harm, isn't it? You're like punishing yourself because you're like my body doesn't work anyway. So what's the point? The small relationship maybe I had with my body now? And I'm, I am getting better. I eat a lot better and I, you know, do yoga and try and exercise as much as time allows.
Speaker 1:But I was just, I just hated everything physical about myself. I was like you just failed me, like you've let me down the one job you're supposed to do, when in reality, our bodies work hard all the time. And I remember one of the nurses saying your body is doing everything right to keep this pregnancy. Um, I had a baby bump and, like she said, your body's doing everything right, it's just the baby wasn't viable, so just don't punish yourself. But looking back, it's obviously nice that she said that, but at the time I was like no, my body's failing me and yeah, it's really hard. It's a hard place to be when you've got no control over something or anything really to do with your body. Have you? You've got very little control.
Speaker 4:So, yes, um, it was really damaging, really damaging and you know, um, to hear you say that that's something I never thought about, um, you know it's funny because, uh, my wife, you know, and and talking about it, you know, just uh feeling like in her words, more, like a less of a woman, like that's like your womanly, that's what makes your woman being able to have a child, um, but here you even say, like that I've never considered that, um, and that might help someone, um, who has, uh, their spouse or their girlfriend, whoever who they're trying to help through this time, something to let them say, hey, that your body did not fail you um because it's and I I can understand how you would get to that place.
Speaker 4:You know, uh, for me and kelly, as men, these are things in our mind. You know, we talk about the wombs of our mind you know, um, and whereas for a woman, yes, you have the womb of the mind, but you, you also have that physical womb, like you said, your physical body, the physical things that your body is supposed to do. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it makes sense, at least from hearing that, as to why you then would have been so focused on being able to have a child, because now that's tied up to success in your entire being, both mentally and physically.
Speaker 4:And it's almost as if this goal is not achieved, then and I don't mean to be insensitive when I say this, but it's almost like what is the point of living, because mentally I want to do the things I want to do but I can't, and physically nothing that I want to do is happening.
Speaker 4:So it makes sense that you would have gotten to that dark place. But, like I said, just by you saying that, just those few words can give someone else something to help their partner with, to say, hey, like you said, the nurse tried to say it to you. You know, okay, you weren't. Of course you weren't hearing at the time, and I think for a lot of the guys out there, maybe their spouses or significant others won't hear it at the time too. But that doesn't mean it's not important to say you know, just because, hey, you were able to recall that that moment, you know, and then come back, be able to come back to that and say, oh yeah, someone did just say that to me and how much would it mean for those of us who are trying to support to be able?
Speaker 3:to say that. So, Sophie, what is, or what are some of the most ridiculously harmful things that people said to you during the time that you were going through all of these losses? All of these losses From medical providers to what Eden just said? To family and friends. That was harsh. That was uncalled for. He's cutting deep, he's cutting deep.
Speaker 1:He's the clown there, do you know? I laugh about it now because I just think I just can't get my head around how insensitive people can be. But then I have to just kind of check myself and remember that at one point in my life I didn't understand it either, so I probably would have said very similar things. But yeah, I've had um, obviously the just go on on the pill. If you can't handle a few losses, you're not going to handle a child Go on the pill if you can't handle. Wait what, what?
Speaker 4:That's the wildest thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you know I've been blessed. My little girl is so well behaved. We don't really have tantrums and I'm like I can totally handle a kid. It's the losses I can't handle death what do you mean?
Speaker 3:if you cannot handle death, you cannot handle life. What I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sophie, I.
Speaker 4:That is just so wild to me that oh wow, that has got. That has got to be the wildest thing.
Speaker 3:That's up there, that's up, oh my goodness I'm so sorry someone said that to you.
Speaker 4:Please, I think I can probably stop it.
Speaker 1:so we then I had. When I went into the hospital to have my second loss medically managed, uh, obviously I was crying because I was upset and the nurse said the longer you sit there sniveling, the longer this is going to take. And then, as they were wheeling me down to knock me out, Hold on.
Speaker 3:Wait, wait. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, wait a minute, wait a minute. A nurse said this to you, are you?
Speaker 1:kidding me, I know edith, honestly I laugh about it now, but at the time I was like maybe I'm so dramatic because maybe I shouldn't feel like this. It was just so strange.
Speaker 4:That is disgusting.
Speaker 1:Another nurse said to me on the same day I'll talk in a quiet voice because, although I won't judge you, other people might, it's not my choice. For what? Why are you judging me? Like it didn't even cross my mind why I would be?
Speaker 3:judged. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I listen, I know that you're excited to be on the miscarriage dads podcast and you're probably trying to make your mark and you have. You have thought of yeah, well, you're trying to top not just Eden, but uh, you know, uh, and and you've probably thought about the most ridiculous things that people would ever say to say that these things happen to you. I'm just kidding you like Chris, this is like top three.
Speaker 4:Bro, Bro just now. Just now.
Speaker 1:That is crazy. So I work alongside A girl who runs Baby Lost Parents so she does the dad books. I think I sent you the PDF, the letters from dads to dads, and she won't mind me sharing this and we've shared it on a live before. But she went to counselling so she had three stillborns and a miscarriage and so she went on the call with the counsellor and the counsellor said to her right, put your hand on your stomach, what can you feel? And she said, oh well, nothing really. And she said that's right, the baby's gone.
Speaker 2:Now you need to move on and I was like no, how is this like?
Speaker 1:this is who we're relying on to support us, and I was like no, oh my God, how is this, like this is who we're relying on to support us, and I was like it's just not right.
Speaker 3:A counselor said that A trained counselor. Oh my, oh, my stomach just turned, oh, my stomach just turned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think people just aren't that sensitive. I don't know. I think it's just important to talk about it, maybe to educate a few people on you know what not to say.
Speaker 4:Okay. So when Kelly asked this question, I'm expecting things like people might. Someone might come up to you and say, oh, don't worry, it'll get better. Or you know, or that is you know, or just you know. Someone taps you on the arm. Keep your chin up, kid you'll not what that's, that's not.
Speaker 3:That's not premier league, bro. That's uh, you're talking about like third or fourth division here, like that's. That's what we're talking about. Like, those comments that I thought were top of the line obviously are bootleg comments. I mean, they are cheap in comparison to standard.
Speaker 1:So people obviously say I'll just keep trying. You know like it's time to move on, or at least it was early and they're like I feel like they're just. They're just what people say who don't get it, and in my mind I always say to myself how lucky are they not to get it yeah and then try and just move on. But then I'll just have like this rage and probably send a little bit of a ragey voice note to stephy of baby lost parents.
Speaker 4:Um yeah, there's some pretty wild people out there I think, especially from medical professionals and I say this with no regret, I stand 10 toes down on this. If someone says that and they are a medical professional, whether they're a counselor or they're working in that area, they need to be fired. Yeah, fired, and I'm so serious. Yes, because a part of of medical care is care care is not just something you do physically, it's also something you do mentally.
Speaker 4:So in those spaces people are so mentally fragile and that's not making a mistake, because people can make mistakes. Those are preplanned things that people say that can do so much more damage.
Speaker 3:Like he woke up that morning saying you know what I say to somebody? Put your hand on your stomach. What do you feel? Nothing, that's right.
Speaker 1:The baby ain't there no more, so move on.
Speaker 3:I'm cured, I'm cured, yeah yeah, and you know he had a cup of tea. Notice, I said tea, not coffee, you know right. So he had a cup of tea and, uh, he felt good about himself driving into work that morning, or even walking into work them or riding his bike. You know he felt good about himself driving into work that morning, or even walking into work or riding his bike. You know he felt good about himself Like, wow, you know what, as a trained professional, as a responsible human being, that's the right thing for me to say to someone, because I would want somebody to say that to one of my loved ones or to me if I was going through something on par with that oh yeah, most, definitely, most definitely, yeah.
Speaker 4:You see that that bullet hole, stick your finger in that. See that your loved one's dead now.
Speaker 1:So there you go, move on I always yeah, I always say imagine if someone um lost their partner and you were like oh you know, there's plenty more fish in the sea why don't you? Just get on a dating app, like you'll be okay, like you just wouldn't say it. So why would you like?
Speaker 3:why are you crying for your calendar?
Speaker 4:just cleared up yeah you lost your boyfriend, you'll never make it as a wife. Look, I got a partner.
Speaker 3:you don't have a partner, that is just wow, I'm so sorry for the outburst.
Speaker 1:Yes, that was just wild, kelly, I feel like we've kept a very good decorum during this, but when you, that is wow Some of the wildest things Right, we work with some of the local hospitals and recently we did all help with this project about giving feedback on maternity care, and obviously my feedback isn't necessarily the most positive. And one of the things I said was you know, it's easy to earn your money when you've got a positive outcome, but you really earn your money when it's a negative outcome. And, um, my point is always just, language is free. Just, if you're having a tough day, like we all do, fine, but just remember you're not having a tough as day as the person you're treating. It's free to just be nice.
Speaker 3:Hold on Say. Say that again in English for the people here in the US and also the people in the UK.
Speaker 3:All right, because I've said the same thing, sophie, I don't care what kind of day you're having If you're having a bad day, and before you walk into that consultation room to talk to me, to talk to you, before you even open your mouth to say some stupid stuff like what that counselor said or what any of the other ones that you mentioned earlier, take some time. Breathe, facetime your dog, go cuddle a cat, go out for a walk, take a smoke, pour yourself a glass of wine, chow down to some whiskey, take a nap, tickle yourself, throw some cold water on your face, go get something to eat. Go watch some funny YouTube video, go watch a soccer game I don't care what you got to do. Listen to a lullaby, I don't care what you got to do. Settle yourself before you walk into that room, before you open your mouth and you say some stupid stuff like that to people, because you are absolutely right. Words are free. Words are also powerful tools that can shape the outcome of someone's life, for good or for harm.
Speaker 3:And what people say. You know there's that saying. I can't think of who it originated from, but the quote goes people won't remember what you said, people remember what you do.
Speaker 3:People remember how you made them feel yeah and words, I mean, are a powerful vehicle that inspire and instigate feelings, and I can't imagine anybody coming out of any of those spaces having those things said to them, feeling like empowered or or or healed or restored in any way, shape or form yeah, yeah, I was saying in the, the hospital, that the language used around my losses it was always oh, you're anxious, you know it's because you're anxious.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not, I don't think I'm a particularly anxious person. They told me I was depressed. Do I think I was depressed? Do I think I was depressed? Not really, I think I was probably traumatized and I needed to know how to get from A to B safely, as opposed to just I was in a bumper car just trying to do whatever I could to get to B, but I said, you know, through my losses, my the language use was so negative that it made me, by my fourth loss, I didn't even bother asking for medical help because I felt like I was just wasting their time all the time.
Speaker 1:But then my so say anxiety, when I was having my daughter, was used as a positive, that they were like oh, you know, because you're anxious, we'll do this for you or that for you. The minute I had her, it was what are you anxious about now? And I'd had a womb infection after I had it and the first thing the doctor said to me was well, what are you anxious about now? You know you've got your baby, what? What is it now? And I was like, well, I'm not very well, which we now have established, I'm not very well, but don't worry, don't apologize, it's totally fine. And then I don't know about you.
Speaker 1:But after I'd had my little girl, I was just convinced she was gonna at some point not be there anymore anyway. So I would go out with the dogs or and think if I'm not there, it's not my fault. If she passes away or anything happens, it can't be my fault because I'm not there. And she had a tumor in her neck. So I was like back to Dr Google, who obviously tells you that your baby's gonna die. But again, it was no, you're just an anxious parent because you've had losses. You're just so anxious. And then it turned out she had this tumor that she needed um physio and help with. And I was like it's just used as such a weapon against you at times. But it's just based around language. It's not even anything scientific, it's just how people speak to you, so strange.
Speaker 4:So I'm a pastor and you know, of course, as a Christian, we believe God created the world and we believe God created the world using words, speaking things, um, and I don't think people understand how that relates to us in terms of the things we say yeah and how, when we speak, we create worlds in people's minds.
Speaker 4:We create reality for people based on the words that we say. I can start describing apple how red and beautiful it is, with the one little stem with a little green leaf coming up the side. Then a little worm pops out and smiles at you.
Speaker 4:I just created an entire world in your mind with my words yeah and I don't think that people understand that when someone's going through a traumatic moment, the words that you say can either create a world of hope or a world of despair, a world of not necessarily feeling carefree, but a world of feeling safe or a world of feeling anxious and to know that people are in those spaces where they're meeting you at your moment of trauma and creating a world of anxiousness, and then and then having the audacity to blame you for your anxiousness, that is malpractice.
Speaker 4:So I, uh, I like anime. I'm watching a lot of it recently. Don't judge me, sophie. You can't judge me like that. It's not fair.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at you differently. I'll be on it.
Speaker 4:So there's this, there's this one anime called my hero academia and, uh, in this anime it's just about this these heroes who are going to school to learn how to be heroes and, um, they're going through, they're trying to get their hero license. So they're going through this test, and there's one test is, um, um it it's there's like a disaster area. They call it disaster training, and they have to go out and save all these people. So, of course, it's a training. So the people that they have that are acting like they're hurt. They're actors.
Speaker 4:The main character, deku. He finds this one guy and as soon as he comes up, there's like a rock laying on him or whatever like that. And the guy's pretending he's in pain and he's saying like, oh, my head hurts and this and that. And the first thing that comes out of his mouth is oh no, this is bad. So the guy says wait, what? So? What do you mean? This is bad. He says hold on a second.
Speaker 4:You do realize that this is the worst day I've ever had in my life. Right, like this entire thing has happened. I probably just left my house not thinking anything bad was going to happen, and now entire building has fallen on me, my head is hurting, I'm bleeding everywhere, and the best thing that you can do when you come up to me and say, oh, this is bad. And then he was like, no, you lost five points. So you know, of course it was this funny moment, but it's a moment that, even for me, has stuck with me Because, you know, as a pastor like I'm, I just had to go to the hospital just the other day, you know. But that moment plays in my mind and it makes me want to be more aware of the situation, because I'm walking in. It was a person who had a heart attack, unfortunately, and you know, the family is there, the wife is sitting in the room. So now, in my mind, I'm playing okay, don't walk in here and say something dumb, you know, because they're having the worst day of their life.
Speaker 4:She is sitting here. Her husband is in all these tubes. Don't walk in here and say, oh, how are you doing?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know, or don't, walk in here and say, oh well, it could be worse. No, be smart about what you're going to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Be as encouraging as possible, without saying something silly, you know, but the cognizance of going into a space, being able to say the right thing and to know again that there are people out there that don't even take the time to think about what it is that they're going to do. And I don't know we we've talked about it before, kelly I don't know if this is because they go through it every day, or something like that, so they get so desensitized to it they just don't care anymore. Maybe these are barriers that they place up for themselves. Um, but my goodness, I just wish that there was some kind of training for doctors, and I mean mean counselors are supposed to have this training.
Speaker 4:So I have no idea what that was about, um, but at least doctors and nurses that they go through to be able to have that sensitivity training? Yeah, because, like you said, there was no reason for you to feel. I mean, of course you're going to feel anxious already, but they should be diffusing that anxiousness when you have your child, and especially if I'm looking at your medical books, knowing your history, I should be doing my best to celebrate with you and acknowledging so why you would be anxious, of course, even after your child is here.
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing, isn't it? I think that's the thing, isn't it? They, you know they do see worse, but in your world that's the worst thing that's happening to you. So that is a massively important thing. So I I always try and rationalize and think, you know, they do see a lot, and if they took on everyone's sadness, like where would they be kind of be in life? And it's difficult. But my thing is just you choose your career, don't you?
Speaker 1:And I think, being in medicine and being in counseling, you have to have a level of self awareness and empathy that goes beyond putting different situations into your own mental hierarchy where you're going to go up. Well, I've seen worse. So you know, come on like, get on with it, like you're good, I don't know. It's tricky is that I've not been in the situation. Obviously I've not been a counsellor, I don't work in medicine, but I just think it's a basic level of human decency, just to use nice language. And you know, especially after my losses, I've been so much more self-aware and you know, I think about what's coming out of my mouth a little bit more than maybe I would have. Whether that's age or because of my experiences, I don't know, or both. But yeah, I just I can't wrap my head around it. I just think you know it's like, it's free, just be nice, like I don't, just don't say anything if you've got nothing positive to say, just so I don't think I can deal with this.
Speaker 4:Could somebody else have a look, or I don't know I feel like the same thing can be said if you're a friend of someone who has gone through a miscarriage or um, as as the spouse or family member or whoever. If this isn't something that you've been through before and you see someone going through it and you don't know what to say, sometimes the best thing to say is you know what? I don't even know what to say. I'll just sit here with you. Best thing to do sometimes thing to do sometimes.
Speaker 3:I'm so glad that we spent this amount of time on this question and this issue and this particular vein of this topic, because it is true that the level of trauma that someone experiences as a result of a miscarriage on a personal level, and then you broaden that to the communal level between that person and their partner, especially if it's a supportive partner, regardless of the status of that relationship right and then you broaden that out even more to the rest when other community members begin to say things that are just not helpful. It's just not.
Speaker 3:It's just not, and what I attribute to being the biggest factor in why this happens consistently, because I don't think there's anyone who has experienced a miscarriage that doesn't have at least one thing said to them that was eyebrow raising, right yeah. So what I think is contributing to that is how little this topic is openly spoken about, the level of stigma surrounding this miscarriage event, what it means for you as a woman, what I think it means to me as a man, what it even you know to for for me in particular. I know what it means to me, but there are certain men who are like, maybe it means something to me to not even have, and we've often come back to this point, chris and I. It's not until I started posting stuff on Instagram, when I started the Miscarriage Dad Instagram page, that I find out that my good friend and co-host, chris, and his wife experienced a miscarriage also. So there are people close in our communities, in our circles, close to us, who have gone through this and we don't ever know about it. There are families who never even know that their parent or a sibling or relative have ever experienced baby loss, and it might be a history, like a significant part of a family's history that there's been multiple events of baby losses in all of its iterations.
Speaker 3:So just the silence around it, the fear of opening up and talking about it, the level of shame that gets ascribed to people who've experienced loss to miscarriage unjustly and unfairly.
Speaker 3:So all of that just contributes and continues to feed into this, this, this notion of people just opening their mouth and saying all sorts of stupid things, and apparently it seems that it doesn't even matter if you have some level of higher education, because that just permeates through and through, regardless of where you fall in the social ladder. So I appreciate the work that you are doing with the Miscarriage Mama support. This is the reason why the Miscarriage Dads platform and podcast exists. Also, it's to begin to peel back some of those layers and to push back against that you know negativity around talking about this openly in order to hopefully change the narrative, the perspective of people who know somebody else who experienced loss to miscarriage. So I can't thank you enough for your time and for your transparency and for your story, for blowing our minds with some of the ridiculous things that that people say to you. I mean, I don't know what else to say after that.
Speaker 4:Those were so creative from those people like they must have had writers for those I think it's hard, isn't it?
Speaker 1:because Because people associate grief to not necessarily a tangible thing, but a physical being as, whereas you are the ones that kind of have that feeling in the physical sense. So I think people don't attribute, maybe, grief to miscarriage and loss in that way. So it's almost a bit like like, like you said, there's like that shame or people just aren't talking about it, but then as soon as you kind of open up conversations, there's just loads of people around you that actually have experienced similar, but just nobody talks about it. It's good that you guys definitely are obviously talking, and especially from a dad's perspective, because I've listened to a few of your podcasts and like the insights and stuff I get from that is so valuable because it would have been things that I just had never thought about before.
Speaker 1:So yeah thanks for the work you guys are doing and the talking and being open, because I know, for men particularly, it's a bit stereotypical maybe to say that, but I think as a society men typically don't necessarily open up as much and I think it's so important, so important thank you for number one, letting us know that you listen to our podcast that's pretty cool, I find you guys so funny
Speaker 2:that's pretty cool. I was like a proper fangirl like yeah what's going?
Speaker 3:on Well, thank you. Thank you very much. We do want to respect your time. I always have this feeling, when we have a guest on the show, that this is not going to be the last time that we have you on to talk about things, things, because I know, chris, there are many questions that you want to ask. There are also many questions that I want to ask, particularly that last thing that you just said, sophie, about how people ascribe grief to more tangible things. I think that is spot on so that's an amazing conversation.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes yes.
Speaker 3:So consider this a uh, consider this a cliffhanger for a second conversation that we want to have with you. So, um, stay tuned to our listeners for when that is going to come back up. It might be sooner rather than later, but we'll work it out. Um, we just want to say, once again, thank you for your time, thank you for the work that you're doing. Give yourself as much time as you need to let people know where to find you, how to find you and all of that stuff. So go ahead free. Self-promo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so we are, um. You can obviously find us on instagram, facebook. I've just started actually doing a series on tiktok of ridiculous things people say I've said during my last journey, um. But you can get all of the information on what we do and the online sessions that we've run at wwwmiscouragemamacom, and we also have care packs which I can send out the booklets and things in PDF to you guys if you want to kind of use those resources. But yeah, it's wwwmiscouragemamacom and we do lots of really cool online sessions as well, so you can join us from anywhere thank you, sophie, for coming on, um, for the work that you're doing, um, uh, it's been a pleasure talking to you.
Speaker 4:I can't wait to talk to you again, um, but thank you for being so open and transparent and, uh, just spending some time with us and helping us see things differently as well. Just spending some time with us and helping us see things differently as well.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you, thank you, thanks for showing me your dog and Eden, obviously, and I stayed awake.
Speaker 4:You stayed awake, you did it. You did it. I failed it.
Speaker 3:Have a good night, sleep well. And to all of our listeners, thank you for listening to this conversation and remember that you are definitely not alone in this incredible, painful and transformative journey of grief and life after miscarriage. Until next time, thank you. Thanks for watching.
