Dad Always
For fathers who have experienced the heartbreaking loss of a child through miscarriage, stillbirth, or infant loss, the world can seem transformed by sorrow, confusion, and an overwhelming and crippling sense of isolation. The grief that follows is unlike any other—a dark, quiet ache that lingers long after the condolences fade - if condolences are even ever given in some cases - reshaping the very definition of fatherhood and self. In the midst of such unimaginable pain, connection, understanding, and empathy become lifelines. This is where the power of community and shared stories takes root, and where a dedicated podcast community for bereaved dads offers both solace and strength. Dad Always is that podcast and community.
Dad Always
BLAW 2025 - Talking Platitudes with Still Parents Podcast
A lot of people want to help—and end up reaching for the worst sentence in the English language: “Everything happens for a reason.” We go straight at the hard stuff with the hosts of the Still Parents podcast, unpacking why platitudes land like a slap, how they fuel self‑doubt for grieving parents, and what real support sounds like when words fall short. Along the way, we share the story behind Still Parents—born in lockdown, built on honest conversation, and now recognized with nominations at the British Podcast Awards—and why that visibility matters for dads who are told to “man up” instead of speak up.
Together We Care becomes more than a theme as we compare emotional pain to physical pain, explore the long tail of grief after baby loss, and underline how presence beats quick fixes every time. We talk intent versus impact, faith and friction, and the small unspectacular acts that mean everything: a hot meal, a late‑night answer, a friend who listens without trying to solve. Think of grief like a museum where the bereaved is the tour guide; your job is to follow their lead. No timetables. No reasons. Just respect for a love that didn’t end.
If you’ve ever wondered what to say to a grieving parent—or feared saying the wrong thing—this conversation offers practical language, grounded empathy, and permission to choose silence over cliché. Listen, share with someone who needs it, and if this resonated, subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what words of care have helped you most?
Related Episode:
- E38: Still Parents - Grief, Identity, & Purpose (ft. Still Parents Podcast)
- E15: When Faith Falters in the Face of Miscarriage (ft. Chris Cheatham)
- E16: Cliché-anity: When Consolation Becomes Controversy (ft. Mary)
Listen to the Still Parents Podcast here
Show Music from Soundstripe:
- Daybreak by Ghost Beatz
- Penn Station by Ghost Beatz
- Collaverating by Sam Barsh
- Caesura by Hale (theme)
To the ones we hoped for but never met. And the ones whose time with us was all too brief. This is Dad Always. Fatherhood beyond loss. This is a series of uh episodes for Baby Loss Awareness Week, and I am thrilled to have three of the most incredible voices in this space that I've met over the past uh several years and more than just colleagues and people that share similar interests. We've become actual friends. So it's always exciting to have the Still Parents podcast on the Dad Always podcast. So, gentlemen, how are you doing?
Speaker 01:Ooh, podcast friends. American friends.
Speaker 03:Should we just stop it? I was waiting. I had to get in there quicker. Ryan was literally bursting.
Speaker 05:It is a not bad, isn't it, Kelly?
Speaker 02:Yeah. I think that's about it, Kelly. We're done then, Kelly. Yeah, we're done. That's it.
Speaker 00:Yeah, well, thank you for coming and uh see you next time. Anyone who knows uh and who has been a follower of this podcast when we were the Miscarriage Death Podcast, now the That Always podcast, you are already accustomed to hearing me speak about the Still Parents podcast and how uh they are the inspiration uh for me personally to even begin podcasting about this topic and these topics in particular. So uh for new listeners of the podcast, gentlemen, can you just give us a quick summary of who you are, how the uh Still Parents podcast came to be?
Speaker 03:Let me start, chaps. Yeah, go for it, Ryan. Yeah. So my name's Ryan Jackson. Um, along with Matt and Dan, we founded the Still Parents Podcast back in uh November 2020. Um I founded a charity called the Lily May Foundation, um, which we founded, which I founded, sorry, along with my wife Amy, uh, back in 2010 following the loss of our daughter, Lily Mae, to Stillbirth at full term. Um, the reason we started the podcast was to give men a platform to be able to um vocalize uh their thoughts and feelings around grief and to reduce the um isolation that males feel when they've lost a baby. Um so that's enough from me because otherwise I'll stop these boys from talking.
Speaker 02:Hi guys, yeah, I'm Matt. I'm um I'm uh brief parent to Callie, who we lost in 2016. She was our firstborn. Um, and as Ryan said, just started the podcast, but really wanted to stay involved and and yeah, I've loved every minute of it, and it's been great doing it with with uh these two guys as well. And um, yeah, just anything I can do to talk about baby loss and to get the subject out into the public eye, I think is always important, and I'm a big believer about it, so yeah, that's me.
Speaker 05:Yeah, hi, I'm Dan, and so as as Ryan said, it was what five years ago, which is still mad to think about. Um it was during lockdown, and um I I haven't lost um uh I've got two children, I haven't lost a baby. And we came onto the podcast to sort of provide that angle maybe for other friends who have friends who have lost, so to try and, you know, um just learn and understand how to have these conversations, and we decided to just put the conversations we were already having on the internet, that was pretty much it. And um, we we started on uh on lockdown, um, on Zoom during lockdown, and um, yeah, now we've we've built a studio and five years later here we are still going. Um but I will say it it's it's the strangest thing because and I always feel uncomfortable saying this because I wouldn't have met these two guys if they if their children hadn't have died, which is mad to think about because they're such an integral part of my everyday, excuse me, my only got my voice back yesterday. They're such an integral part of my everyday life now. So to think that that's the only reason I I know them, because you know, let's be real, even though we're we're in a small, tiny island country compared to your massive landmass, Kelly, we wouldn't have, we wouldn't, our our paths just wouldn't have crossed. So yeah, and we and we do this podcast and um we're uh we're we're proud of the community that it's uh that we're building. We're proud that we've been able to become friends and uh create a synergy with yourself, Kelly, and your podcast. So yeah, that's us.
Speaker 00:And you guys have I mean, the podcast itself, right, has gained recognition over the years and especially now the podcast had been rec has been recognized for a pretty unique award. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 03:Yeah, so um we're quite What are you laughing at? Because it sounds weird to talk about, right?
Speaker 02:It sounds weird to talk the fact we've got a lot of.
Speaker 03:Well at the time of recording, at the time of recording, it's tomorrow the awards. So yeah, so at the time, yeah. So we're actually at an award ceremony ceremony, sorry, tomorrow evening. Um so it's the British Podcast Awards, um, which is it's actually a big deal to be honest, because when you look at a lot of the podcasts um and hosts of podcasts that are going to be there in terms of sort of celebrity, if you like, across Britain and and what have you, they're all very renowned and well-known TV presenters, radio presenters uh and so forth, who have then obviously ventured into podcasting as well. So to be able to be at an award ceremony um with people like that is really big for us because it validates exactly what we're trying to do. And it's it's um and and for us, it's not actually about the winning as such, it's just the fact that we're there in that room in the first place and that we've been nominated in two categories for the best parenting podcast and also specialist uh podcast, um fills us with a huge um I mean we're we're extremely grateful, obviously, to be to be noticed and it just goes to show that what we are doing is is providing a support platform, support network for so many people um in a what I call a niche audience because you know, Dan, you've always said before, you know, why would anybody want to come on and talk about the worst day of their life or you know, but what we're doing is is enabling people to vocalize maybe the inner thoughts they have that they're not able to necessarily speak about with other people who don't have an understanding of this world.
Speaker 05:I think that's what it is, isn't it? It's just normalizing that that conversation. Because if I listen back to the the original episodes, I was nervous as hell because I was like, the last thing I want to do is offend anyone. But the idea of it is can we replace what we're doing in this particular episode right now? And imagine can we have this same conversation in a bar, in a restaurant, a bus stop, where wherever that is. And for the awards, I mean, obviously, if we win any of them, this will not be my answer. But before ahead of time, um just to get the nomination is is a huge recognition because as Ryan said, we're up against some uh you know, some some juggernauts, I suppose, of the the media industry, and and there's just us three, like, you know, Bellens sat in office somewhere being like, oh podcast friends. So whether we whether we win anything or not, we've already kind of this sounds cheesy as hell, but we've already kind of won because we get them, it's given, it's given a boost to the platform. Yeah, whether the it's a bit like so you know, like the Grammy Awards, and after when someone's been nominated, like let's say Adele, and you see an advert, it'd be like, oh, five time nominated Grammy Award artist, or and I never really noticed if it's nominated or winner, it's just as long as you've got the word next to it. So that gives us a greater platform and greater exposure to bring in new listeners who unfortunately, you know, this did this shouldn't be we don't want them to listen to this podcast, but we want them to be aware and wary that it is there if they need to, yeah, or if they need to tell a friend about it or something like that.
Speaker 00:And how fitting, right? Because this is October is baby loss awareness month. And so for that to be something that is happening in the month of October as well, and for you guys to be in this room surrounded by all these people who are in the podcasting space, just the fact that you're there is itself a form of awareness, right? And I feel the capacity, I feel like is just going to be uh very palpable through the through the uh in the room, right? Like, who the hell are these guys? And what is I think we missed the trick there.
Speaker 05:I think we in the write-up for the award, we should have put, oh, the awards happen to be the same month as baby loss awareness week, just put some emotional like you know, weight on them to go, well, we've got to make sure they win it.
Speaker 02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we just we just walk into the room and say, just give us the award is Babyloss Awareness Month. Did you imagine?
Speaker 03:There's more of these guys. But again, if we go dressed up like the dumb and dumber people, like in really bright suits, we'll get noticed anyway.
Speaker 05:And then can I tell Kelly something here? So in our in our the WhatsApp group that the three of us have got last week, Ryan put in he put in a picture and went, lads, this is gonna be in my outfit outfit for the awards. What do you think? And then Matt went, Oh, I'm gonna put a picture in too. And he put a picture in, and neither of these two noticed that they did. No, Rob said Matt copied me. Yeah, Ryan did. Ryan noticed. Oh, did you meant to Ryan? I thought it was after I brought it up. Yeah. Because it looked like it looked like they were picking out school uniform because they're pretty much wearing exactly the same clothes. So I've never rock up wearing the same thing.
Speaker 02:I've completely opposite. I've gone, yeah, I've gone the other way around now. So yeah.
Speaker 05:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm I'm just yeah, I'm I'm going as a little Dutch girl.
Speaker 03:Don't do that, because then we'll look like we're naughty males.
Speaker 02:Imagine we walk in at the entrance, start having a sword fight like I'm dumb and dumb at mate.
unknown:I'm out.
Speaker 05:It wouldn't make me laugh if you weren't allowed in. Yeah, I think that would be the wrong kind of a win. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, let's leave that there then. But uh, but yeah, but yeah, so we're seeing that we're seeing these guys tomorrow. I'm heading off to that there, London. It's about an hour and a half on the train from where we are. And um, if we do actually win, I think we'll be back in about a month.
Speaker 00:Do you get to meet the the the royal family at all if you win an award?
Speaker 03:No, that would be amazing, Kelly. No, we wouldn't get to meet the royal family, um, unfortunately. But that would be good because Prince William well, yeah, Prince William's the villa fan, and I'm a villa fan. Um that would be uh a nice subject bit of synergy there, but no, the royal family, they're safe uh more important people than us.
Speaker 00:And I think the greater theme for Baby Lost Awareness Week is Together We Care. And in my mind, I that's my spin on what Together We Care means. Because if we are really talking about the way that the community rallies around or the way that the community comes together in order to care about baby loss awareness, one of the most prominent ways that people want to show that they care is through what they say. And I know that you all have experiences, whether you've experienced baby loss or not, in being in a very tough place, and then someone comes alongside you to try to support you and give you uh a pickup, but the things that they say, man, are just you just want to punch somebody in the face or you just want to cut somebody off. So Ryan, Ryan would punch them in the face. I mean, especially in the context of you recently just lost your child, right? And then for someone to come and and say the the wrong thing. So that's what I'm gonna invite us to talk about for the next several minutes on the theme of platitudes, particularly Ryan's favorite one. Everything happens for a reason.
Speaker 03:Oh, does it now? Does it now? My fist going in your face happened for a reason. Yeah.
Speaker 00:That would actually have a more logical explanation than some of the things that yeah, 100%. Exactly.
Speaker 03:That one for me, I I can't stand that. I can't I can't stand that. And whether it's baby loss related or anything, when people say everything happens for a reason, I just it's it's simplistic, it's dismissive, it's isolated, it can you know cause isolation, it makes you feel isolated. But I think the main thing is it invalidates grief, in in my opinion. It doesn't actually allow the person that's saying it to be able to have open dialogue, open conversation with the person, with the with the um the mother or the father or grandparent, whoever that may be. It doesn't allow open dialogue, it's just bang straight away. You just it's it in my opinion, it invalidates grief. And it's it's to try and they're obviously potentially uncomfortable in that situation, and it's said, I think, to almost stop the conversation because it's it's almost it's it's very much a point, it's not a it's not an open-ended question, it's not a it's not even, you know, and that's how I look at it. Yeah, um, and it's just completely and utterly simplistic. It's a simplistic way of looking at things.
Speaker 00:One of the things that I want to do in this conversation is to approach it from a different standpoint. The standpoint that I want to approach it from is let's give the person who said it the benefit of the doubt. So what do you think? Let's just get behind the saying for as blood curling and as upsetting as it is. What do you think, if we're giving the person who said it the benefit of the doubt, what do you think is behind that saying?
Speaker 02:I think what Ryan said before, just hit it on the head a little bit, is to kind of take away the the the um awkwardness that they feel around the whole subject. Because, you know, we've talked about this plenty of times on the on the podcast, and and again, Ryan has said this very decently is that the British is the British view of grief is you said, Ryan, have a cup of tea and crack on, you know, like that or you know, and and and in general the grief we don't I mean look, it's a it's a very generalistic way of saying it, but it we don't do grief very well in this in this country. Um but I think I think it's probably more it's got better over time. I think the the generation that we were brought up in certainly didn't do grief very well. Um my I lost my granddad in 2005, and even then in 2005, it was like it was really sad, I really struggled with it, but like in general, like for example, and and this is just me as a family example, my dad is the best bloke in the world, but he I didn't see him cry over it. He may have done away from me, but he just he didn't show it in front of me. And as another another small example, Crystal said that when she my wife, when she lost her mum when she was 11, her dad, he she can't remember her dad ever crying, right? So, and he probably did, but he did the generational thing as well. Well, that's what I mean. I think I think from the generational side of things, I think over time hopefully that it's the dial is starting to change, and and and but I think the fact that someone says everything happens for a reason, I think this is what people used to say in the past, um and they just then write, okay, that's swept under the carpet. We'll just carry on.
Speaker 03:I think the I think the if you if you're giving the benefit of the doubt to the person who uses the term, you know, everything happens for a reason, and like I've said previously, that in my opinion, that just invalidates grief. You've almost got to flip it on its head and say that you and and the person that uses that type of term should be thinking about actually validating the grief rather than invalidating it, and it can be comments like that, platitudes like that are nine times out of ten said because of because they feel uncomfortable in a situation that they have no understanding of. So know what as as a bereaved parent, if somebody spoke to me and said, you know, everything happens for a reason or any other type of platitude, I'm not looking for them to fix it because I I know as a parent they can't fix it because believe me, I've beaten myself up enough to know that even I couldn't fix it, so I don't want you to try and do it. What I want you to do is validate is be is is validate my feelings. Um and I also think that some people say things that I I I mean I obviously I know what your job is, Kelly, and I rem I remember somebody saying to me once that God does things to test people. That's right along the same lines, isn't it? My my response to that, and I pardon my friends. I don't know if I want to hear this. God's a wanker because why would he do something like that and put somebody through that much pain? Um why couldn't he just, I don't know, throw a squirrel out in the road in front of me so I've got to break a little bit harder or something like that? It's when that that was something that's that somebody had said to me, not knowing what my beliefs were at that time.
Speaker 02:Um and I think people say things and do things because it's them feeling uncomfortable in that moment or in that yeah, but I I can balance that out in a way because I am I am a religious man, and I can balance that out and say, even though that is I've had that said to me before, and even though I'm a religious man, I still find it difficult to get to that point even through my faith. Because I think and and and I think that if you are saying that, well, you know, God has a plan or or or or something like this, it it really did to start with test my face when we faith when we lost Cali because I was like, well, as Ryan has said, if this is the plan, then it's a pretty shit plan, right? But again, it's just it's just people it's like they dance around the subject and then they want you to dance with them, and then when you don't start dancing, they're just dancing on their own and feel all awkward, you know? And and and the fact is that you wanna they almost need you to then not make them feel awkward, but I always find that the people who if they've said that to me and then I engage with them, I get two kinds of reactions. They either are so closed-minded that they just won't take back what I say, or they're then open-minded and they actually joined the conversation, in my view, correctly and open their mind up. Dan Dan has always said, and Dan Dan's a big one for this, and he's absolutely right, and it happens all over social media all the time. We can disagree, we aren't trying to change people's opinions, but just respect my opinion, I'll respect your opinion, and we can just we can just be in that point. But the point, the problem is the world we live in, you get people shout you down, especially on social media say it's this way. No, it's not this way, it's your opinion. Fine, but it's not my opinion.
Speaker 05:I don't know why we I think the social media is to blame for that, isn't it? Because where's the art of conversation uh gone? It doesn't mean that because you have a different viewpoint, we then need to attempt to destroy each other. It's fine. Like, okay, listen, I'm not gonna agree with what you've just said, but uh at least I've you've given me some uh knowledge about the reasons why you think that way. We're not starting this conversation to go, right, by the end of it, you're gonna agree with me or I'm gonna agree with you. No, let's just respect each other and I've actually learned something because that's where it's coming from. Yeah, it's it's it's a bizarre thing, isn't it? Um one thing I'll say is because obviously coming at it from a different angle to you guys, and with the platitudes thing, I think there's obviously there's a big difference between like a like not a vindictive, but just almost like a cast off, a castaway, a throwaway. I don't want to have this conversation, platitude, like you know, um the ones that you've mentioned already, or just something as um as I can't even imagine how annoying and angry this must be to hear. But when they say, Oh, it's all right, because you can you can always have another one, stuff like that. There's a difference between, but you could someone who's being vindictive or someone who's just not dealing with it because they're not used to having these conversations, they might say that same sentence, but one of them is coming from a place of awkwardness, which as British people we're very good at having awkward conversations, and that need to feel maybe that they have to say something and being so mentally unprepared to go, shit, this moment is happening right now, this conversation, and it's like, what's the most cliche default comment I can come up with? And before you know it, you know, it's out of your mouth before your brain's in gear. I don't think it's meant intentionally to to piss anyone off. And and quite often, I mean, this reminds me a lot of some of the conversations we had on our very first episode, wasn't it? Because we didn't know what to say, and I think I think the best thing was just what it was just honesty, wasn't it? Not the platitudes and the cliches because they sound so insincere.
Speaker 03:We've all heard the the rhyme, sticks and stones will break my bones, but names or words will never hurt me. You could almost say sticks and stones may break my bones, but words have the power to hurt me more.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 03:Because they do, don't they? And that's where if if you look at like you just said there, are you young enough to have another one? Or some people I've heard before, at least they're in a at least they're in a better place. Or, you know, there's lots of different um platitudes out there. Um But I think that anybody who I I don't believe that anybody is saying things intentionally to hurt somebody. Um I think you've got to be one sick person to do something like that. I I agree with that 100%. Yeah. So I d I don't for one minute think people are doing it out of out of sheer spite or to hurt anybody. I think it's a lack of education on the ability to be able to hold a conversation that's maybe now been lost in because of things like social media and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 00:But um so so let me just pause on this point that you're making right quick, Ryan, because with the social media thing aside, because platitudes have been around way before social media, right? People, and that's what Matt was saying, like it's a generational thing. So social media has influenced in the way in which we have conversations, but platitudes have preceded social media, and I think they will long outlive social media if social media ever goes away. Yeah, it doesn't seem like it's going to. But to that point right there, the lack of education, the lack of preparation, because people just don't know how to handle this situation. I think that's the the crux of the matter. Whoever thinks about number one, from a parent's perspective, we're never prepared to lose our child. Number two, from the support side, family members, friends, whoever thinks that you're going to lose your child. So it's one of those things that's like you don't know that you need to prepare for it because it's never really in someone's psyche to want to have to prepare for it.
Speaker 03:I think uh if you look back on the J if you I think your point is absolutely 100% valid, and I completely agree with you. I've also got another potential theory as to why we maybe now look at platitudes differently to generational is if you look at society as a whole, and I'm not just talking in the UK, I'm talking uh worldwide, people can be hurt by one sentence and will shout from the rooftops if they don't agree with something, or if somebody said um, I don't know, there might be a word in a sentence that they don't agree with, and immediately the they're very vocal, they're very uh outspoken about you know how how that person or or how or whatever has been said makes them feel. In the past, platitudes have just been accepted.
Speaker 02:Yeah.
Speaker 03:It's we've never had uh we've never been in a world prior to what we are in now where everything is at the the click of a button, um where we can shout from the rooftops if we're angry about something. You know, I remember going to let's say a football match in the 90s where I wouldn't be very happy with how we'd played, but we never had social media to be able to go on and moan about it or look for other people's views on it. Whereas now you go to a football match and within seconds, if a player has done something wrong, bang, it's on social media and people are just there and then. So I think platitudes in the past were probably accepted because we have moved on so much socially that we're in a different we're in a completely different era on what people will accept and what people won't accept. I think I've gone the long-winded way of saying that, but maybe you're right. Yeah, right.
Speaker 02:Yeah. Just ignore me for a second, you might need to edit this, Kelly. I need a toilet. Sorry, mate.
Speaker 01:I'm gonna have to worry about toilet. No, please don't edit that. Please keep that bit in. I love Matt. What the fuck is that about?
Speaker 05:To be honest, and I think that's really disrespectful, Kelly. Never goes in the toilet, and he's like people. Right, can you can you take your laptop and just call it my hands and I can't come in on my people?
Speaker 03:I think he's back. There you go. Here he is.
Speaker 02:Did you wash your hands? Yeah, I did. And I was I was very I was either that or very close to doing what Dwight did in the American office and establishing a peak order in the room. So it was either that, so I'll go to the toilet.
Speaker 05:So that's why he was so fast because he was washing his hands at the same time as he was having a piss. Sorry about that.
Speaker 02:But no, I I I just continued on from what we were just talking about as well. I think it's a I think the work that the platitudes and stuff like this, I think, as well, come back to and it and and what we said about social media, yeah, it has accelerated it. But I also look back to and I've I've spoken especially to the dads that I've dealt with on a one to one basis, and I'm sure Ryan maybe has had these conversations a little bit as well around when it comes to baby loss, especially from a male perspective. This is why bluntly we started. The podcast was it and I'm all you guys are the same. I went secondary school in the mid-90s and it was so tough. It was so tough as far as kind of comments that were given. You know, there was no there was no area of being able to show any kind of weakness. And then when you like and and this weren't even this weren't even like the kids, this was the teachers. You know, this was people that you are being influenced by. Oh wow. Right? Would just throw a comment out there and it's like deal with that then. And who are you? Who'd you who'd you tell? Who you can't tell no one's just a teacher, right? And and all the education around stuff wasn't there because it was seen as a banter, right? And and listen, uh we've all we've talked about this again on the podcast. I I really, really, I'm really pleased that I was brought up in that kind of generation looking back because actually it built a pretty thick skin and being able to laugh at myself now because but then I look back and think some of the comments were like, wow. How old were you at the time, Matt? So I started I started I mean I started secondary school in '95.
Speaker 00:Yeah.
Speaker 02:So 11. 10, 11. You've asked that for a week. You know how old it is when people start secondary school. Was that a sarcastic question?
Speaker 05:No, no, I didn't, I didn't. Sorry, I'm actually being serious. I didn't know.
Speaker 01:I can I can never know we're at the start.
Speaker 02:No, yeah, so so suspicious. Yes, around 10, 11, that kind of stuff, right? And but again, I've talked about this before. I was I was a bit scouts was a big part of my life, and I was brought up by males who and the males who led the scout unit were like they were ruthless. We've had they used to take the mick out of the kids and that, right? And we all just laughed.
Speaker 01:We all just laughed.
Speaker 05:But is that hiding behind the oh it'll toughen you up, son? We'll toughen you up, lad.
Speaker 02:Well, it goes back to the the the man up thing, isn't it? You know, it was like I I remember clear, I remember clearly there was one incident where we we were playing, we'd we'd go on like weekends with like dads and lads, and we play football, and the dads were playing football with us, and there was dads going around like two-footing kids and stuff and things like that. But like we were just like, but then the kids were like rolling around, like, get off, you're fine, you know. Like, but that was but that yeah, yeah, absolutely run it off, lad. Exactly. Run it off, but you know, but that's what that's what it was then. You know, if you got injured on a football pitch playing football, your coach would come on with like a bucket and one little sponge and say, You're alright, can you run? Yeah, right. I'll get up and limp about the place, and then you like you cracked on.
Speaker 03:But that's that that's what I mean is that with regard to the platitudes, I think it was accepted, and that was the way that that was the way that things were dealt with. Um, and like I say nowadays it's it's completely different because with everybody's got the ability to be able to say if they're not happy, in in even if they don't vocalize it, they can put it in text. They can, you know, there's a way of doing things nowadays which is completely different to back back then in the good old days.
Speaker 00:But I also think what right what um what Matt is saying is is important to highlight too, right? There's a difference between so pain is pain, but not every pain is pain. There's a difference between the physical pain and then there's a difference between emotional pain. Most physical pain, you can do something to help, to, to ameliorate in some way, shape, or form. That emotional pain, though, there isn't necessarily a quick fix. You can't necessarily go to a doctor, like people can go to therapists, people can go to psychiatrists, people get, you know, can get prescribed medications for mood improvement and get into mindfulness practices and all of those things help. So I'm not minimizing any of these calling avenues, but there's something about emotional pain that is not as cut and dry as prescribing something for physical pain. So in this era of toughen up, son, like you know, stiff upper lip and uh just brush it off, be a man, and all of those things that I think we all were cut out of. There's something to be said about emotional pain is not, number one, seen or validated or even acknowledged as a legitimate kind of pain. And two, it's if it does, it gets the same type of treatment as the physical pain. Right? You can break an arm and go to surgery, get that arm repaired, even if you have that arm amputated, but uh you still have function of something, right? Like you're not going to live with that pain for the rest of your life. Emotional pain, though, it is different. And especially that level of emotional pain, it is so different. It never goes away. Your relationship to it changes, but year after year after year after year, you're having to in some way, shape, or form, relive the pain of not having the child that you lost there. If in your case, Matt and Ryan, or in the case of people like myself who've had who've experienced miscarriages, is that emotional, like I've said to you guys before, every time I see a dad with a daughter, I'm thinking to myself, man, that that should have been me. That could have been me. Right. So there's always something that's happening that is re-triggering that emotional pain. And yeah, you may not break down and start sobbing, yeah, but you might break down and start because And even if you don't break down and sob, but it's there's like the levels, isn't there?
Speaker 05:It's like the volume control and and with the with the with the physical, say for you know, you have an operational, it leaves that physical scar, but the the pain of the of the initial physical pain has gone, but then it's a scar, it's almost like a trophy, you can see it. But I think with an emotional scar is that's that's different because that's still there in a much more tangible way. Because it obviously I can't relate to it the same way that you guys um with your with your children, but just in other areas of life, it's something you know, like relationships that in in my past, and that that pain sticks with you, it's still it's still present, whereas a physical scar is just you you don't feel it, you just notice it from time to time. So it's it's a whole different kettle of fish, isn't it?
Speaker 00:And and so to flip it around, right? Let's say you're out there and you're um, you know, you guys play football, so you're playing football and you have an injury. I wonder if one of your lads will come up to you and be like, ah, listen, man, everything happens for a reason. At that particular moment when you're on the ground writhing in pain, if they're gonna come up to you and say, eh, brush it off, everything happens for a reason. Most likely not.
Speaker 05:I feel bad there now. Can I just say because when you said that about football, I'd instantly thought of our last charity game when Matt had it when his leg fell off. And and I was one of the first people over there to him, and I'd and I'd all I wanted to say was like, well, that's what happens when you got toes the size of yours. But yeah, but instead we got some oxygen, I think, which was a better decision.
Speaker 02:Well, I mean, the sympathy wore off within about an hour because Dan was taking a video of me cook hobbling into hospital on my crutches, so you know, but like but yeah, I but also that that's an interesting one because as well that then like linked into emotional pain for me not being able to do Callie's challenge that year because I was all lined up a month later to do that challenge, but then I couldn't do it, so then I had to deal with the guilt, all the stuff that comes with it. You feel like you're letting her down, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, the emotional pain is a big one because again, like it you know, I've had people say to me uh that they've had said to them, Oh, aren't you over that yet? That's another one.
Speaker 01:Holy space, and that that's a vindictive one.
Speaker 02:That's a vindictive one, but it's more and it's more to be fair, it's more I was gonna say to be fair, then there's nothing fair about it. To be more than it's more with the people who have had earlier losses.
Speaker 03:I had somebody say that to me once. It was it was a girl who I used to ball with. And it I mean, we're going back a good few years now when she said it, and I I tell you now, if it wasn't a girl, I'd have smashed that person through because the way they said it, it like Dan used the word vindictive, it was very vindictive. It was it was almost like it was said to to push a button and and to hurt. Wow. Um I know she'd had her own, not not baby loss, but I know she'd lost her her dad when she was quite young. So she had an idea of what obviously grief has a complete understanding of what grief is, but to be able to say something like that I thought was awful. Yeah, that's that's not nice, is it?
Speaker 02:Yeah, it's like it's it is, but it and it is, it's one of those where you just go like yeah, I there's and sometimes if someone says something like that, it you feel like there's no there's no point in any, and this is the other thing that I find sometimes I don't engage anywhere because there's no point in me engaging with you when you say something like that.
Speaker 00:Because like one of my go-to lines now is when someone calls me the wrong name or says anything, I'm like, ah, I've been called worse. Like R Kelly, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I am been called worse.
Speaker 02:Yeah, but it yeah, it is. It's just some people you just have to accept that it's like, you know, I can't I can't do anything for you or with you, so I I'm just gonna remain calm, and you know, it's pointless even trying to figure that side out with you because you've come in with that comment first, you're probably some kind of knobhead anyway.
Speaker 00:They're just they they rob people of an opportunity for genuine connection, right? With the person who is experiencing uh that grief, who is living. It's not even just an experience, it's it's a lived, it's a part of life now for the person who has lost a child. Life can never be the same, life will never be the same. So to come and and and say something like everything happens for a reason. I feel like there's so much more we could say about that. But what we have said is that it it shuts down an opportunity for genuine conversation and connection for the person to be able to sit in, express, process, try to gain some kind of footing within their own grief.
Speaker 02:Because thing the thing is, Kelly, especially at the start, and I'm I I I don't know whether you and Ryan kind of had this yourselves, but people who lose who tend to lose a child and go through this, they they overthink everything as well. So when someone drops something in, Ryan's already said about the fact that it it it it it stops that grief journey happening in a sense because then people think, Well, should I be grieving as heavy as I am? Is this normal? And when a comment drops in like that, it does people question their own grief journey, and it's like you shouldn't need to question your own grief journey.
Speaker 00:That's a great point, yeah.
Speaker 03:It does, it encourages self-doubt. Yeah, that is a good point. You start doubting what you're doing. And that matt, that's that's that's yeah, that's an amazing point.
Speaker 02:No, it just it does, it just just makes people think, well, actually, I'll get over it, I'll try and get over this quicker then. Yeah, because they're not given they're not given the room to you know deal with their with their grief, which is not true, isn't it?
Speaker 05:I think people just do it. They're in an auto- it's day-to-day life, isn't it? How many times you know you've been driving somewhere and you just like you're in autopilot and you're going somewhere else, but like you you end up start driving home because you just you pre it now. I think sometimes people just say things they're on autopilot, and it's just having that presence of mind, isn't it? If you're going to talk to someone, invest, fully mentally invest in that conversation. Be there, like do it, just don't bosh out cliches and platitudes. I think it's just it's just taking a moment and thinking, isn't it, about what you're gonna say.
Speaker 00:To that point, then let's two things that I'm gonna put on the table for us to uh conclude our conversation.
unknown:Okay.
Speaker 00:What then is an appropriate response besides punching somebody in the face? So if uh if if uh violent retaliation is off the table, yeah, which no one can make any promises that they'll keep up, you know get someone else to do it. Yeah. Get a hit man.
Speaker 05:So if physical. Can you just kind of allude to one of them, really? It was just was it just walking up, just not engaging with that person, but then but then they've still that platitude's still been dropped in the first place, hasn't it? So it's still gonna lead you to the bigger.
Speaker 00:But I don't think you can control whether or not people drop the platitude, right? Because people are just gonna say what people are gonna say because of this dynamic of, well, I don't know what to say. I mean, I think the intuitive thing would be like, well, if you don't know what to say, then shut up.
Speaker 01:Yeah, there we go.
Speaker 00:Yeah. But there's always the impulse to, and I think that's part of a larger conversation about just how we feel like we uh when we are in the face of someone who is having a tough time, we for some reason in our own psychology feel the need to be the person to say the thing to make them feel better.
Speaker 05:And I don't know where that comes from because it's good from being, I think it's it's it's almost subconscious selfishness. You want to be the hero, you want to save them.
Speaker 00:Yes, yes. It it's very much so that Superman, superwoman type of ego, egotistical thing where I have to be the rescuer, I have to be the savior, I'm gonna make sure that that person remembers me for being the one to get them out of the mud. And I also think the other part of that too is it is so uncomfortable to see someone grieving in such a raw way that the if if grief were like radiation, a platitude would be putting on protective gear to protect yourself from that radiation. Yeah, well, that's a great analogy.
Speaker 05:Yeah, yeah, because you've just made that, you've just created it. You've that that visual theater that you've just said with in the in what you've just mentioned there. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it.
Speaker 03:I think just somebody offering their presence, just being present, yeah, you know, in in a conversation, nobody saying, on a I'm talking now as a brief parent, I'm not saying to people that I want you to come out with the answer because you haven't got the answer, because believe me, I've been looking for the answer for 15 years. But just being present, and even if the ability to be able to just be um to just listen, you know, I don't want you to say any words, just listen, just be there, be present, and just show uh interest in what I'm what I'm talking about, what I'm saying. Um I don't want you to fix it. If I wanted somebody to fix it, I wouldn't be going to you to fix it, I'd be going to a medical professional that could give me more advice. Um, you know, we can't fix everything, unfortunately, so don't try and be the purse, don't try and be the hero because you can't be a hero in this in this situation.
Speaker 02:The the most respect I've had for the mates that I've still got after through this journey is the ones that early on seemed to go a little bit quiet, but then actually came into my life again a few months or whatever down the line, and just said they were honest and they're first of all they apologized, and I weren't really looking for any apology because again, I didn't even know what I was feeling at that point, but what I got from them was I want to try and understand this that was a big thing for me, and I thought, you know what, it's it's it's the simple things that make the most difference. Um again, I I know I've talked to him about him so many times, but Rob, my best mate, he's done he's done everything on on he's done the unspectacular so spectacularly. That's what he's done, right? He's given me he's given me room to speak when I need to speak. He hasn't tried to offer any kind of advice or anything like this. Ryan has already just been present and he's just listened. And and and he hasn't, like I said, when we first lost, he just went and got food for us. He didn't really know what to say, or didn't know, didn't say too much, went and got food, went and he was just there, that's all it was, and that's all you need. You need you want to know that someone's there, that's it. If you can pick up the phone, and I know I know in my life who I can pick the phone up to, and and that's an important part when I'm in my worst moments, and I know they'll do what they can to help me. It's not rocket science.
Speaker 00:It's it's not, it's not. So in the in the spirit of uh together we care, uh, here's one final mental picture. Think of someone's grief as entering in a museum, and the person grieving is the tour guide. Now, you've never been in this museum before, and so you don't know where the exhibits are, you don't know where the bathrooms are. Matt, you don't know.
Speaker 02:I was Kelly, I was hoping you were having a lot of shine. I was hoping that was gonna follow.
Speaker 05:I'm glad there's been a bright there because I couldn't get Ben Stiller and Knight of the Living Museum out of my head and all the things coming to life.
Speaker 00:Like, you don't you don't know where you don't know where anything is. The person who does know where all of the exhibits are and how they're arranged and why they're arranged in the ways that it's arranged is precisely the person who's grieving. And so my job coming in into that museum is to follow the tour guide's lead, which is exactly what you just talked about. Your your best mate did. He followed your lead. He didn't speak when he didn't need to speak, he uh waited for you to give him the cues for him to then know what he needed to do. And I think that could be a helpful way for someone who is in the presence of a bereavent, a bereaved mom or dad to let that be your compass. The understanding that you are stepping into a completely foreign field that is also foreign to the person living it, but they have way more experience than you do. And so all you gotta do is just follow their lead.
Speaker 02:It's just being open to being emotionally intelligent as well. Yeah, just just be open to well it is, isn't it?
Speaker 05:Communication skills and emotional intelligence, knowing when to say something and when to not, or or in your case, bring your dominoes.
Speaker 02:Exactly. It was actually Subway, to be fair. And even and even in the midst of our grief with when we were in the room with Callie, I was done with hospital food at that point. So like Rob was Rob was literally like I'm I I he he almost in fair, he actually said to me, I can't sit and eat watch you eat this stuff anymore. I've got to go and get you some food. So he just went off to Subway and come back. So but yeah, but it's but it's a most six inch or twelve.
Speaker 01:What did you say then? I mean that I said six inch or twelve. It's a very personal question that is Danny.
Speaker 02:It's a very personal question that you know.
Speaker 05:I know they know what they're doing in some way, don't they, with their marketing?
Speaker 02:What was it though? Can't go six inch. Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, oh no, I was not cheap, no, I was gonna say, get in my even in my grief, get back and get me a 12-inch bitch.
Speaker 01:That's literally the angriest I've ever heard, man.
Speaker 00:Gentlemen, thank you. I I can't thank you enough for the time that we spent in conversation, for your insights, uh, again for your podcast. Thank you for being brave enough to start this back in 2020 um and putting your experience out there. I'll say I've said it to you uh individually, I've said it to you privately, I love to say it publicly. You guys are trailblazers, true trailblazers, taking the most unthinkable circumstance, situation that could ever happen to someone and using it in a way that keeps the light of the child that you have lost alive. And what a what a lasting legacy for generations to come. The community of uh bereavents that you've welcomed into the Still Parents podcast community, the bravery of someone who hasn't experienced that, also being part of this journey. I mean, it is it is an absolute honor and privilege that for the short amount of time I have on this earth, I've been able to cross paths with you guys. And I can't thank you enough for your friendship, for your mentorship, and for your support over the years. So thank you and kudos to all of you.
Speaker 05:Sounds like a platitude to me, that Kelly. Sorry, I can't help it. Thank you, thank you, Kelly. That's wonderful. Thank you, Kelly. I'm right, I'm right back at you as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely right back at you. When are you coming over to visit? Or when we're coming over to America?
Speaker 00:Whenever my wife and I can get our budget stuff together, we'll make a trip to the UK.
Speaker 05:That's the next step, isn't it? Absolutely. Kelly, thank you for having us. Thank you.
