Dad Always

E3: A Bereaved Dad’s Journey From Loss To Purpose (ft. Matt Whitehouse)

• Kelly Jean-Philippe • Episode 3

Share episode

How has Dad Always helped you redefine fatherhood after your loss?

On today's episode, Matt Whitehouse retraces the day his daughter Callie died, how grief transformed his identity, and how the right type of communication, counseling, and community helped him rebuild. He shares why he now supports bereaved dads and how a daily 10K run in 2026 honors Callie’s tenth birthday.

Key Takeaways:
• Lily Mae Foundation and Still Parents Podcast
• The hospital day that changed everything
• Powerlessness and the shock after loss
• Identity split before and after grief
• Communication as a lifeline for dads
• How friendships shift and mature
• Turning pain into purpose and service
• Planning a 10K-a-day tribute in 2026
• Early progress update and lessons learned

If you want to stay in the loop of what's going on at Dad Always, go to dadalways.com to join the email list to receive updates. 

Theme Music: "Love Letter” was created using AI as a creative tool, with lyrics and direction shaped by the personal experiences and emotional intent of the host.

Show Music from Soundstripe

Azalea by Ghost Beatz

Ignorance Is Bliss by Liberty

Yesterday, I Lost A Day by GLASWING

Imagination by PALA



SPEAKER_02:

Some people will say it's it's stupid, some people will say it's crazy, so yeah, next year because she's 10, I've decided that I'll be running 10k a day for the whole of 2026!

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, I'm Kelly Shafi, and welcome to Dad Always, the podcast exploring what it means to be a dad even after baby loss. I am here with a special guest who has been a voice on the podcast before, but this is the first time that you and I are going to be chatting one-on-one, right, Matt?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. And and I promise I've uh I've been to the toilet this time, so I don't need to I don't need to break halfway through and I am pleased to be joined by Matt.

SPEAKER_00:

Is it Whithouse or White House?

SPEAKER_02:

No, White House where where your uh president lives. So yeah. I'll call him a president, he's just about a president, but you know, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Whatever, whatever, whatever. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, so yeah, white, white, white tax, mate. Yeah, white house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

All right, Matt Whitehouse, and from the accent, you know that he is not from the United States of America. But as you called it the other day, we are what would you say that we are cousins?

SPEAKER_01:

What kind of cousin is colonial cousins?

SPEAKER_00:

Colonial cousins.

SPEAKER_02:

And I heard that was I heard that on um the film uh Green Street. Uh so uh because uh the uh obviously this American guy who goes over to England for a state and uh he gets called a colonial cousin. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

For people who are gonna be listening to you for the very first time, Matt, why don't you go ahead and give us a sense of who you are, talk a little bit about the uh Still Parents podcast and also the Lily Mae Foundation.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so lovely to be joining you, mate. I you know I think we've it's it's incredible. I I I say this all the time, but the the people that I've met and since I explained my journey and and have have been some tremendous people, and and you are one of them, my friend. I I've really enjoyed getting to know you and and I you know I see you as a as a good friend considering you're miles away, but you know, I think that's what this journey does to people, right? You know, you find that you find that that common ground. And yeah, so yeah, I'm I'm um yeah, I'm I'm from the Lily May Foundation. Well, I work for Lily May Foundation now. Obviously, there's a backstory to it. You know, me and my wife lost our first born in 2016. Callie was 30 born at 38 weeks or five days after a textbook pregnancy, and then unfortunately she passed away after 27 minutes, and and and and this is the you know, the the conversation we're gonna have is relevant to Callie, of course, you know, and yeah, so and then yeah, work now for the for the for the charity full-time, you know, it it really is the best job I've ever had. Uh I I love doing it, I love working for the people I work for. Amy and Ryan are two of the best people I've ever met. And and and and my colleagues now that I work with are I'm very fortunate to work with some fantastic people. And yeah, of course, out of that the the podcast was born, and yeah, we've it it it's it's gone to places we didn't really think or know it would go, you know, considering we started like the way we're talking now on on the computer fight. Well, it'll be five years next year, no, five years this year. I always get a dam for this, but we start we actually Yeah, because you got you guys started in what 2020? Yeah, so we we recorded on in 2020 and then down we didn't actually release it and think until 2021. So I see okay. There's a bit of technicality here and there, I guess, that kind of thing. But yeah, so so yeah, so but it's it's been a long, it's been a long time. We've done a lot of episodes, you know. We're very proud where we've brought it to considering where we started, and but I I I still think that we are a pretty humble podcast, to be honest, and and try and keep it that way, considering uh the subject that we talk about.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, go ahead and brag a little bit about the award that you guys just won. Because I mean it it's pretty big, man. It's it's it's pretty significant that you know, to your point, because I remember in the conversation leading up to before you guys went on the road to to the award, you you were you, Ryan, and and Dan, who who all three of you co-host the podcast together. You guys were sort of talking about, you know, we're gonna be in rooms with media juggernauts here and feeling kind of like not that necessarily you didn't belong, but in terms of the scope of the people, the personalities in the room, there is a gap that you guys were feeling between your small, humble little group and then the who's who's that were gonna be present in that room. So go ahead and brag about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I am I I I don't think we realized look, Dan and Ryan were the I say this all the time. I I turn up and talk on the podcast, you know, like Dan. Dan and Ryan are uh do a lot of the technical stuff behind there, do a lot of the soundwork, you know, all that kind of stuff. When they're trying to fix stuff in the studio, I literally just sit and watch. You know, I'm just kind of you know, I I could help that probably make things worse. So I like to think that I just bring the bring bring my voice. Yeah, I I don't think we realize how big because you know Dan and Ryan worked really hard on putting the because you have to kind of put your evidence together to to even be nominated, and it doesn't always happen. We tried last year, we tried 2024, and then it it we didn't get a nomination, which it's fine, it is what it is, it you know, although I don't like that saying, but it actually is what it is. And then this year we were fortunate enough to get nominated in two categories, and we we look, we just went to enjoy the night, you know, went to enjoy the night, and yeah, we ended up we ended up so we were we were nominated in the in the parenting award originally, that was the first one, but then we got an extra nomination in the special speciality award, I believe it was, which came out of the blue. We didn't know that one was coming, so that was lovely as well. We didn't get anything in that, but we got we got a we got a bronze in the in in the uh in the parenting awards in category. And so we got on the podium for an athlete, I suppose that's what you say, right? You know, he's from the Olympics, it's a podium place, and and uh and and yeah, we we we can claim that we are an award-winning podcast, British podcast awards, and it was yeah, I mean we like I said, I don't think we realised the size of it until we got in the in the actual room, and you're looking at these podcasts that are going up on the screen because they obviously put the nominations up, and you know, the for the American listeners who obviously don't know our radio system or TV system and things like this, the BBC is like our main radio station, like it's a radio network and and TV network, which is huge over here, you know, it's a huge national, you know, thing that has been going for, well, I believe probably since my dad was was a little boy, so it's been going for years. And a lot of these podcasts had like production teams behind them, you know, people who, you know, again, ultimately, the people who do the podcast would do the do what I do, where they just turn, they turn up and talk, you know. But then Dan does all our editing, you know, he he he works so hard on that and does that does that so it takes him hours to do it and and stuff, and so we and then we've got obviously the marketing team, which are you know, Kat and Lucy and and they're behind it, but and then there's me and Ryan and Amy who who pitches in with ideas, and yeah, so what's that? Three, six, seven, six people, you know, um six people all together.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's uh let's get into let's get into the meat of our conversation because as you mentioned, you are a bereaved dad, and you have been a bereaved father since 2016.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep.

SPEAKER_00:

Take our listeners back to 2016 and that moment where you find out that you're going to be a father and walk us through who Matt was finding out that he's going to be a father to a baby who would ultimately be named Callie, and then the Matt that emerged after the 27 minutes that you had with Callie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, it's and again, just to give your your listeners a bit of background as well. Obviously, I'm now a bereavement support worker, so I I work mainly with the dads who've lost on a one-to-one basis and lost babies. I say all the time, Kelly, it's it's it's completely life-changing. Up until you know, 2016, life was just what I thought it was. You know, you know, I I met Crystal, I met Crystal in in 2010 originally. I mean, I don't know how I'm married to her really now, because basically I uh she had she had then taught she then told one of her friends about me. I met her in a nightclub called Snobs, which was both the best and most horrendous place you could find. So yeah, so I met Kristin Snobbs, and so yeah, and then a few days later, or yeah, it might have been a few days later, she was on the way, she was at university still at that point. She was on the way to university with a friend, and I I texted her and said, lovely to meet you, really good, but I I'm ever so sorry, I'm gonna give it a go with this other girl. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, kudos for the honesty.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, yeah, so look, we still we still knew each other across that two-year period, and I was with my ex and it it never um it it I I shouldn't have been with my ex. I should have been with Crystal in the first place, but you know what? You you you you go through these periods again, don't you, where you find yourself, all this kind of stuff. And then eventually we got together properly in 2012. I proposed within six months on Christmas Day, because I knew that was it then for me, you know, I was ready and all that. And then we got married in 2015 on the 27th of May. And so, yeah, so we look, we always wanted kids, you know. Crystal always wanted to be a mum, and we done we done a couple of holidays beforehand, did the stuff you can do without kids and things like that, you know, and and and then and then yeah, we we we found out about Callie. So she was going to be born in the June, so what's that? With a we find out in the October of 2015, something like that, September, October. And yeah, the the the pregnancy mate was was as I've said many, many times, was was was textbook, was very smooth, couldn't have asked for a better pregnancy. They always said that that that if they could build a pregnancy, it would be as and this and show it to people. Chris did all the right things, you know, she did the right stuff as far as eating well, looking after herself, all this kind of stuff was concerned. And yeah, then it just it it moved forward. Um sorry mate, I'm just gonna move upstairs because Krista's come back. Sorry, mate. One second.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, take your time.

SPEAKER_02:

Krista, hello to Kelly. This is Kelly from America. This is Crystal. Just changing the ball.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey Crystal.

SPEAKER_03:

Um you believe that you're gonna have to edit this out, Kelly. I've just literally fallen on the stairs.

SPEAKER_00:

You know what that's not coming out. In retrospect, Matt, what does that feel like? Because I imagine one of the things that you know you've shared on this on the uh Still Parents podcast with many guests, also when you were talking about your own story, I think it's been a common theme in any sort of conversation about losing a child. There is this overwhelming feeling of powerlessness that consumes the people experiencing that, right? So, because you feel like could I have done something? Should I have done something? So here you are having done everything right, properly, to the point that people want to take it as a snapshot and model and ideal. What does that disconnect then feel like?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question. And and you know, we uh we only had one real say bad moment, but I suppose it was looking back and reflecting on it. It was just a normal thing to happen during pregnancy and can happen to women on on boxing boxing day in the evening. Crystal was awfully ill with the pregnancy. Like I had to take her in. I I was out somewhere because she didn't come out with us that night. I went out to see some family and I came back and and I had to drive her into hospital because she was just being sick, like every it seemed like every minute, but I don't think it was obviously, but it was like she was just being sick and sick and sick. So I took her in that night and and they kept her on it on a kind of drip to make sure they were keeping the fluids up and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, I I suppose, like I said, and taking you back a little bit to your first question, as far as the the the being a dad was concerned, I was you know, ready to be a dad, you know. What does it look like when you become a dad? What what you're meant to do with life, all this kind of stuff. But we'd got married, we'd we'd got a house, we'd both got jobs, we'd done it the correct way, you know, so I was ready. And then, yeah, but I think as far as the moving through the pregnancy is concerned, and and to then as you'll find out when I go into it, to then have it change so rapidly and so quickly, not knowing that it was gonna happen. And also, mate, to be honest with you, why would it even cross your mind cross your mind? You know, pe I say all the time, people that the reason people can't get their head around baby loss is because people don't go into pregnancies thinking they're gonna lose a baby.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_02:

Why why why would you plan something so wonderful in your life if you end up with so much pain coming out of it? You wouldn't put yourself in unnecessary pain, you know? Yeah, like I said, as the months moved, it was all good. You know Chris, what Mommy's saying is she said it on that, she came on our podcast to talk about Callie and stuff, and as a guest, and she said she was pregnant everywhere. Those were her words. You know, she said even her eyes were pregnant, like you know, you could see everything, you know, she was so big and and stuff, you know. And and and she'd we got to the June and it was hot, you know, it was it was warm, and Crystal had basically had her had her last midwife appointment to go and see see the midwife, and it was because we were at 38 weeks at that point, so it was literally it was almost like a sign-off. It's like right, see me one more time, but then you're you know, you're good to go, right? You know, that's it. And and then, yeah, she I was at home because I was still working in schools then, and I was taken, obviously, I had the week off, and I was just at home, and then she came back, she said they want me to go up hospital. I was like, okay, just for just for sort of a bit of high blood pressure, nothing like major or anything. So we drove up, and and again, not and I and this is what I said all the time when I talk about it, nothing that happened to Callie even came into my mind, you know, nothing came into my mind at any point that it was gonna change because like I said, and this is I'd I'd I'd had a mate who'd lost a baby six weeks before us, and even then I didn't think anything, you know. Of course I was sympathetic, I was there for him, I was wanted to be there, but I didn't think it was gonna happen to us, and then I um you know, we they they got her up there, and and again, you know, you know what it's like, Kelly, you've been through it, you're in hospitals, you're waiting around, you know, you're sitting and and stuff, and and and yeah, the the the doctors said that they just wanted to keep her in overnight as a as a precaution just just to kind of make sure she was okay, really, and and and and keep an eye on her. They were gonna probably send her home the next day, but like just you know and and we were pleased with that because they were being careful, and so I I went home to get some stuff for her because obviously she'd come up with nothing, not knowing she was gonna stay there. I went back and then and then stayed with her till nine o'clock, and then you have to go the men have to go home, then you can't stay on the wards. So I went, I drove home, just we were texting each other till she fell asleep, and then that was it. And then I woke up the next morning to my phone going. My my I'd left my phone unloud, obviously, and my phone went off. And she said, You need to come up because they're taking me in for emergency C section. I was like, Okay, just pack the car, put all the stuff in, put all the uh car. Chair and everything like that, you know. Text my friends, said look, this is it, looks like this is it, and they were like, Yep, gonna meet your daughter and all that. And yeah, when and I've told this story so many times, but went up there and and got into the reception area and it just got kind of moved quickly. Yeah, got moved quickly. They said, Is this Mr. White House? and like said, Yeah, moved me into a room. I had a I took a book with me because I just didn't know how long I was going to be there. I didn't know how long C-sections took, you know, I had no real knowledge of it and that kind of stuff. The midwife came in and uh Laura, who was just a wonderful person, and she said, Callie's been born, but she's she's poorly. I was like, okay, what does that mean? She said, Well, the doc and I'm assuming that this this is from from years down the line, I don't think she midwives are allowed to break the news that I got. I think he's got to be a doctor, you know. I'm assuming it's okay seniority, I guess, that kind of stuff, right? And yeah, uh she said the doctor will be in in a minute to just let you know what's going on. I was like, okay, fine. So again, just sat again, nothing entered my mind. I I probably knew there was of course after finding out Callie was poorly, I was like, all right, but she she's in the best place, right? She's in hospital, you know. There's people here, it's literally their job to look after her.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, at no point at that time are you thinking death in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, nothing. And again, I I remember it till this day, I always will, and and I was sitting in in the room and give you a bit of kind of what the room looked like. I was just sat facing, it was I was facing a window, and a bed was in there, and again I remember it, and the door was kind of behind me, and the doctor came in, and I just knew I just knew she was because she came in, and I've said it so many times, she's a doctor, but she's human, you know, and her eyes were just like you could tell, right? And it was either she was gonna tell me something had gone seriously wrong with Callie, or wrong with Crystal, or wrong with both of them, you know, and then yeah, and then she mate, she just broke the news that that they'd done everything they could, but but but Callie had sadly passed away, and and that's like I said, that's the moment when your life just changes forever, and it's mad because you know you you then like and it's a completely other end kind of away from the stories concerned, but like for example, we me and Crystal talked this week and and and we've decided we're gonna we she's she's been wanting to do the the floor in the living room for like ages, so we're gonna do the floor and we're gonna get a few other things and and can we afford it? Yeah, we can, but it's gonna take a bit of maneuver and all this kind of stuff, but actually we wanna do it, so let's do it, you know, because we've when your life changes like that, your view then changes on life, you know, and yes, I always say to my clients, you know, I I of course I still have worries and challenges, but nothing will be as bad or as hard as what we faced nine years ago.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, so this week someone I heard someone speaking, and she made a statement that resonated deeply with me. And it was in the context of families, you know, parents who have to make decisions for their child. And the way that, and I know that's not necessarily was a part of your experience, but I'm wondering if what she says would resonate with you. So, in the context of having to make complex medical decisions for your child as a parent, you are making a decision for a future version of yourself that has not yet been realized because that future self cannot exist unless that decision is made. And so, in a similar way, uh what I'm hearing from you is you know, you are proceeding with everything routine. I mean, you have the car seat in the car, you have the the bags, you have the book because you don't know how long you're gonna be there. You're doing everything that you're supposed to do, you're doing everything that you're expected to do. And then this event is happening simultaneously with a version of yourself that is about to change, and you just have zero knowledge, you have zero sense of timing, you have zero sense of awareness that the same person who is sitting with this book in this room right now is about to be completely different when you reflect on on that. How have you been able to help some of your clients navigate that? I don't I don't know what the right term is, Matt. It's uh it's a it's really a severing of identities that that occur and it's a split. Yet the split is happening within one body, within one life, and but it's just two completely uh different ways of uh relating to who to the self at that moment because of the event. How have you been able to either you process through that or help the clients that you've spoken to, other bereaved dads, process through the significance of that split that happens?

SPEAKER_02:

It it's one of the most complex journeys that I've ever, well, hopefully we'll be on for the will ever experience in life, you know. When you when you lose a child, Kelly, you you cannot you cannot help changing. You're not in control of it. There's there's no control. I you know, I remember, you know, the early days and and the early moments we had with Kelly, because we had two and a half days with her in the hospital, and and once once we knew that we were pregnant and we were ready for that moment, when I was holding her one time in the hospital, I just literally broke down, had no control of it, and I just said all I wanted to be was be a dad. And look, since then I've no I've realized that you know you we are dads, you know. We're just different dads, we're angel dads, you know, whatever you want to call it, right? The changing of character and personality and and and stuff, again, like I said, it just sadly there there isn't a choice, you know, it just happens automatically because grief, as we know, and you know, you there are parts of grief that you just cannot control. You literally can't control it, and this is why, especially dads struggle with it, because they want to control things, they want to be able to keep a certain level of focus on the family, um protecting the family, on looking after the family, and they can't do it because they're so broken themselves that they that they they and then they can't accept it, you know. Because I I I went on a radio show a couple of weeks back and and I was asked on there by the guy who who was doing the who was doing the interview with me, he said um were were you what was your communication like before or sorry has communication helped you since losing Cali and and and what has that looked like? Well I I said to him, obviously, what you gotta remember with me is I'm from a coaching background. So I'm from a background of working with within sports coaching for 21 years, you know, 25 years now. Obviously, I haven't done as much over the last three years, but I started coaching in when I was 17, and it's communication, you know. You have to be able to communicate, you have to be able to get your message cross, you have to be able to talk to people one-to-one basis, group basis, bigger group basis, whatever you want to call it, you have to be able to communicate in different areas. So when we lost Callie, my natural go-to was to talk about her. I look back and I think if I hadn't have talked about Callie, I think I'd be in a much, much different place. And I when we lost her, there was nothing really around as far as support for dads was were concerned, because again, we at that point we didn't know about Lily Mae Foundation. We found out about it a few months after because we went and did the fun run with them. So I was looking around and there was just nothing on uh no dads talking about this, no one I could connect with, all that. So I I started blogging and I started writing a blog about how I was feeling, what I was going through, all the stuff that came with it. And obviously it's led to the book, which hopefully is going to be released for Kelly's 10th birthday next year. But yeah, I I think the change is very difficult to accept Kelly because I've in general I'm I'm like a poppy dog, you know. I like I like people to like me, you know. I've always I've all I've always had that. I see the best I see the best in everyone, or I try to, you know. Of course there are exceptions, but in general, I I I try and see the best in in everyone, and then and then they if they if things happen and they let me down, then fair enough, or not fair enough, but it is what that's what happens. But I like to see the best in people, and like I said, I like people to like me. I I hate the feeling of letting people down, don't like it. You know, I don't I've got a lot better as I've got older, and and since Cali came along, I've got a lot better at accepting that I'm not gonna please everyone. You can't, there's no, it's impossible to please everybody, but I still try, you know, and and and uh when when this happened, it was very difficult for me because how do you how do you remain positive? How do you see the sunshine? How do you see the things that are meant to make you happy? And again, I I think I did shift some of my feelings out of the way a little bit, my emotions out of the way to to to care for Crystal, because you know I'd never seen a person so broken as her, you know, when we lost. So I knew that I had to click into gear a little bit to kind of look after us as a couple, protect us as a couple, and help her through, especially through those early stages. Look, she helped me as well massively, and she has done. But yeah, so the change is a real tough one because you are right, you almost like split in half, one stays where it is, and the other one goes off in a distance, and then I do with my clients, I do it with my hands. So I've got Matt before we lost Cali and Matt after we lost Cali, and this hand had to get back to to know this hand, and it it they slowly got back together. And I I feel now, and I'm bear in mind I'm nine years down the line now, but and it hasn't taken me nine years to get this point, of course, but I'm now 90% back to what I was before we lost Cali. I'll never say I'm 100% because that 10% I feel is Cali. That 10% is the 10% that reminds me that what we've been through and our journey and everything that we've faced. So I try to point out to the clients that you are probably gonna be different, more than likely. There's gonna be a new version of yourself, you know, there's gonna be things that come into your character that you didn't know you had, you didn't know were there, you know. Again, like a lot of people, I remember being being very angry and frustrated at the start. I didn't I didn't physically show it, but it was in there, yeah. And I and I didn't like that because you know I unless it's football, uh there's two versions of me, there's Matt and then there's football mat. Football mat's very different to normal Matt. Football Matt is can be loud and angry and scary and passionate and all this, and but but then you know, when you're in a coaching environment, like I've just taken a new role on at uh as you might have seen so I announced it on Facebook at a new club and and yeah, yeah, I saw that.

SPEAKER_00:

Congratulations.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you. But if I go on to that training pitch with a group of men, because they are men, and I'm a bit of a wilting flower, and I'm and I'm not loud, and I'm not kind of disciplined in my approach, and I'm not direct trying to direct them and stuff, why would they listen to me? You know? So I have got that side, but it's it's like I said, it's it's it's football side, you know, compared to normal. So, but yeah, yeah, you have to get to know yourself again, Kelly, you have to get to know your partner again, you have to get to know your friendship groups again, you have to get to know your life again.

SPEAKER_00:

I say that very blase, um, but the point is, all of that goes under transformation, right? I mean, there's the changes and the way that losing a child sends out ripple effects throughout your life, these are things that it may take an entire lifetime to really get a sense of how much everything has changed. I mean, your your friendship group inevitably is going to change. Because the way that your friends relate to you now after a loss, especially if they are incapable of empathizing or even relating with what you've gone through, people start to isolate themselves and you as the bereaved parent, you start to isolate yourself because it becomes very difficult to relate with people whose experience is entirely different than yours. If I am outside of that, Matt, and I'm your friend, I have the option to join you, but then also have the privilege to be like, I don't want to have any kind of exposure to that, and just go back to my life as usual. And I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, that's just the dynamic. If I come back home and I tell Michelle, like, babe, I spoke with Matt, and he just dropped this really heavy thing on me about losing Callie. Oh my God, it made me feel so uncomfortable. I can go to bed tonight, wake up the next day, and don't even have to worry about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and and and now yeah, you're absolutely right. And and I think with maturity it as well, there are people now not in my life anymore that were a massive part of my life beforehand. And I've come now to accept that that's just they were meant to be friends when they were when they were friends at that point, but they're not friends anymore. There is I might see them, but I wouldn't spend any time with them, and and uh, and and you know, and also Kelly, to be honest with you, I haven't got the time or the energy for it. You know, I haven't got the time, I haven't got the energy. I I also want to be surrounded by and it is that cheesy cliche thing, but I want to be surrounded by the radiators, I want to be surrounded by the people who bring me good energy, you know, also people that I can have honest conversations with, but it's never personal, you know, and and and the the one prime example in my life of that now is Ryan. Because Ryan is a friend, but he's my boss. And the fact is that we we we have that, we have to understand that relationship. I understand it completely. You've met Ryan, you know what Ryan is, Ryan. Ryan is like down the middle, you know, you take it or you don't, you know, that's that's but I accept that because I'm mature enough to understand that he's my boss as well, you know. But he's a really, really good friend, and I know that he knows how to separate things as well as me. But then there's other people in my life that you you know that that are still here because they are just special and I and I've I talk about him all the time, but Rob, my best mate, is just without him, I don't know, I don't know where where I'd be. And and and he he has just tried to just do what he thinks is right. He hasn't tried to do anything like spectacular. Like I've said already, you know, he hasn't tried to do any spectacular, he just he's just got it, you know, but he hasn't got it where we have to talk about Cali all the time. We'd have to, we don't have to talk about loss, we don't have to talk about what I've been through. He's just done what I believe a mate is meant to do.

SPEAKER_00:

And you know what, Matt, I think that's an important thing that you are mentioning, especially from the perspective of the person who is not the bereaved parent, but is there to support as a friend, as a a relative, a church member, a colleague, some other relationship that is outside of the immediate circle of the bereaved. It's not necessarily a matter of we always gotta talk about the lost. We always have to, it's it's not about that. One thing that you share with me in a conversation that we're having, and I think it's also one of those common things across the board for every bereaved parent, is that there is a level of cutting through the BS that just becomes natural. Like in your interaction and engagement with other people, you just you have a low tolerance for all of the superficial stuff, and you know when someone Showing up and and and are sincere. And so if someone shows up and you get that energy that they're kind of like tap dancing around, well, I don't know if I can say this thing because it might be offensive and this and like you can just sense that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And there are people you don't have to know all the right things to say, but you also don't need to have this fear and anxiety of not saying the right thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If your presentation, if your energy, if your intention is to truly support the person who is bereaved, then I think, my God, I think that's a very good place to start off.

SPEAKER_02:

No, absolutely. Fully, fully, fully agree. And I say, you know, when I when I do any training or any work with people who are looking to think about talking about debris parents, talking debris parents and how they should talk about them and stuff and say, I say to them, like, we don't need rocket science, you know, we don't need special treatment, you know. In general, you know, this is why I'm doing stuff like this. I love talking about Callie. I'm so proud of her, like I am proud of Etta, my other daughter. You know, I'm I'm I'm proud of them. And I and I and I talk about Callie with pride because look look look at what she's given me. Look at what she's given me. She is yes, if I could bring her back in an instant, I would bring her back. Absolutely. Right? Without question. But sadly and logically, we know that's not never gonna happen. But she has she has given me so much since we since we lost. She's you know, I didn't get help for Callie for six years because I thought that I was okay. And Ether came along 18 months after we got into physical parenting and all that, and what goes with it, and and eventually I got my help because I needed my help. And again, without Callie, I wouldn't have got help. You know, I wouldn't have even opened up to counselling, you know, I wouldn't have opened up to anything like that. And and and she's given me this job, you know, she's given, you know, she has, yeah, you know, without her, I would be a sports coach still, you know, and that's fine because I I liked being a sports coach, I enjoyed it, you know. I I you know, I enjoyed being in the schools, working with the kids, all that kind of stuff, but she has given me this role, and and it is the best thing I've ever done. So that's why I say to my clients, I can't be sad a lot of the time about Callie now. I can be proud of her, I can be proud of what we've done as a couple, how we've come through this and how we're still together and how we are as a family, and also I can be proud of her for what she's what she's done and achieved because she's achieved it. You know, she's made she hasn't physically achieved it, but she's achieved it by me and Crystal doing what we've done since, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

100%. 100%. This is actually a perfect tee off to the concluding part of our conversation to give you a chance to talk about a concrete way in which you are planning to honor Callie, given that her tenth birthday is coming up next year. The whole premise of that always is precisely everything that you just mentioned. And it's framed within this context, Matt. When we love something or someone, and in this case, someone, love is often more naturally expressed in or to a physical, tangible, present entity, especially in the absence of all of that. Love takes another form, which is called grief. And we can still, though, love that person in their absence, but not always through grief, because that can also turn back into love, just expressed in a different way. And so what I love about what everything that you just said is, and I want listeners to pay close attention to that, you uh have never spoken about Callie during this, however long we've been doing, we've been in this conversation, in the past tense. It's been in the present tense because although she died nine, almost 10 years ago, her presence continues to live on. And her place in your family continues to influence the way in which you as a dad, Crystal as a mom, Etta as a sister move as a family unit. And look, it takes it takes a long time to get there, and everyone has their own process in order to get there. And you're obviously speaking from a perspective of being almost a decade into your grief journey after losing Cali. Nevertheless, it doesn't have to stay in a place of I'm going to put this on the shelf and never have to look at it again. I sincerely believe, and I think you do too, that even after something so gut-wrenchingly, unimaginably uh devastating, there are moments, there is a season of gift giving that comes out of it. And I'm not saying that it happens for that purpose. What I'm saying is that devastation can also bring about a season of, a moment of, a lifetime of little gifts, of realizing how much more your priorities become refined, aligned, who you are, the whole identity thing that we spoke about, all of that begins to show you as the person how it is that you can live a new version of life that is that much more fulfilling. So the concrete question I want to ask you in the spirit of Dad Always, in what way are you planning on honoring, continuing to honor the memory of Cali in this year coming up, 2027, as we're recording this November of 2026?

SPEAKER_01:

It's record November 2026. 2025.

SPEAKER_00:

Holy smokes, I just shot us into the future. I was I was gonna wait, what I did no, it's fine.

SPEAKER_02:

Listen, I because that that talk was unreal, man. It genuinely was, and you were in that moment, and then I was like, then I thought, like, okay, yeah, like you know what? Listen, I wish it was November 2026 because I only have a month left on my challenge.

SPEAKER_00:

Or maybe I'm speaking it into the future that you still have something to do in 27, right? So yeah, we're obviously in November 2025, and we are looking forward to November or to the year 2026. And you came to you made this announcement on your Facebook page, what, about a month ago now?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, about six weeks.

SPEAKER_00:

About okay. And so at as of the time of this recording, you haven't begun what you are about to begin, the the journey that you're about to begin in 2026. But by the time this is released, I believe you would have already been at least at the beginning portion of it, or maybe like a month or so into it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, in what concrete way are you going to continue honoring the memory of your daughter Callie come January 2026?

SPEAKER_02:

So some people will say it's it's stupid, some people will say it's crazy. So, yeah, next year, because she's 10, I've decided that I'll be running 10k a day for the whole of 2026. So every single day.

SPEAKER_00:

And and this is the place where people would be like, yo, this dude crazy as hell.

SPEAKER_02:

But I get I get what I've found so far since I've told people, and I'm actually quite enjoying telling new people now face to face, because I I get to see their reaction. I get one of two reactions. I normally get, well, that's just nuts. Or I get or or I get the I get like a blank face, and it's almost like people have like they've misheard me. It's like what? But so it basically it it works out that I'll run 2,263 miles throughout the year. That's what the mile count is. So I don't go on kilometers, a lot of people go on kilometres, but I I go on miles old school, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00:

You're American.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. There we go. Yes, absolutely. So I realize that it had to be big, you know, because she's 10. 10's a number that's built up, isn't it? You know, it's it's all it's 10 years, it's it's it's yeah, you know, I for me, yeah. Okay, I'm doing this challenge, so it's a bit of irony that I don't ten's ten, you know, ten is ten, but it's a big number, of course. So I yeah, I knew that I I had to do something. I think part of it as well, Kelly, and I'll be completely honest with you, I think part of it is that I'm being completely honest and open. I'm I'm worried about ten. I'm worried about it being ten because it's a big number, because it's built up. And normally I run through June, so I'm like, you know what, let's just do something every day, because that'll that'll balance me out, maybe, you know. The challenge is to run every day, right? That's what I want to do. But of course, if if I have some kind of stomach bug, right, or I'm really ill, or touch what I won't be, or I pick up a an half-decent injury that starts me running, I'm not gonna get out of bed and go and run a 10k because that would that would be stupid, you know? And I and I I'd be putting my health in in a compromising position, and I don't want to do that, you know? So the mile and I will be releasing another video towards the back end like in the next few weeks or so to say that yes, the the challenge is to run every day, but if it doesn't quite happen, the miles are the things that I will be hitting across the year. So I will definitely be hitting 2263 miles. So if for some reason I have to have two or three days off, I will make those miles up on other runs. So I'll I'll do like a 11k, I'll do a 12k at the weekend when I've got a bit more time, just to make sure the miles are then caught up again, sort of thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, in in essence, it's the goal is to hit the miles because it would all total up to the breakdown of running every single day.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, basically. But of course, I will run every day as long as my body allows. And I, you know what? I've had lots of people talk to me about it. Are you sure? It you know it's tough, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah, it is, right? But there has never been any doubt in my mind. Never, not once, right? I've never, I've never gone. I'm I'm I'm pushing myself a little bit here, right? I've never, I've never, never, never thought that I can't do this. Because you know what, Kelly, there's a couple of things that come into play here for me that are big. And it's a quote from David Goggins, who, and for people who don't know David Goggins, he's a very, very famous motivational speaker. He's done challenges that I just put they are ridiculous. He says that when people doubt you, it's because they can't see themselves doing what you're about to do. And that's how I see it. It's fine for people to doubt me. I I listen, if I found out if I wasn't a runner and I found out someone was doing this, I would be like, Whoa, that what? Really? Because you can't see yourself doing it, right? But I I know I can see myself doing it, right? And the you know, the other thing is, Kelly, that is, and I and I stand by this through my running anyway, it will be hard. You know, I'll get to places like in March where we're not even halfway through the year, and I've been running and running and running, and be like, I've gotta go out for another run tomorrow, this, that, and the other. There will be moments like that. I know that, right? But nothing will be as hard, and you know what's coming already. Nothing will be as hard as what we faced this time nine years ago. 100%, right? Nothing. And all I have to do, which I don't do very often, is reach back to that moment and go, you know what, come on, man. Get out of bed. So, yeah, it look, it it is, uh don't get me wrong, it's nuts. I know it's nuts, I know it's I know it's hard, I know that it's gonna be challenging, but it's meant to be, and and I'm and I'm setting a I'm setting a goal of raising£5,000 for the charity as well. And look, if I hit that£5,000, fantastic. If I hit half of it, brilliant, right? But the money's the money, the money will help the charity, of course it will. But it's for me, it's doing it for Callie, but it's also raising the awareness of baby loss as well. Why is this man doing this? He's doing it because of this, because of baby loss, because he's been through this, you know, and so yeah, that's that's that's that's what I'll be doing uh in 2026, mate.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, this is Kelly. As you can tell, this conversation was recorded in 2025. Well, this is 2026 Kelly, letting you know that 2026 Matt will provide an update on his running challenge at the end of this episode. So stay tuned. I am obviously rooting and cheering for you. I think it's brilliant. Absolutely, I think it's absolutely brilliant. Thank you. I think it is a a mammoth of a challenge, but absolutely like the moment you said it, it made so much sense. So I want to encourage other listeners to, you know, maybe they don't have to go as big or they don't have to do what you're doing. And that's that's the point, right? It's not about how do I compete against Matt to show that I love my child. It's not about that at all. No. Within your context, the challenge is how can you think about ways that are meaningful that will keep you connected to the memory of your child in such an intimate way in order to bring more meaning, more awareness, whatever else, more purpose to yourself, awareness to the rest of the world about this devastating impact of losing a child. So, Matt, I can't thank you enough, my guy, for your time. Thank you for sharing your story. I will give you the floor for any final comments, things that you that you want to say.

SPEAKER_02:

No, Kelly, thank you. Just yeah, just thank you, because you know, ultimately, um you know, and and I'm gonna go right back to the start of the conversation about what you said, what's changed over the nine years since we since we lost her. Things like this is what's changing it, you know, because nine years ago there was nothing like this. There was no podcasts, there was no talks, there was no conversations, there was no men talking to each other, you know, and then pulling it out in the public eye, you know, and however many people listen to it, you know, it it doesn't matter, you know, it doesn't matter who who as long as it's there for people to listen to and grasp, then that's that's what we're doing it for. And and um, you know, I I know that in general Amy and Ryan don't do soppy with me too much, you know. And I tried to do it at the awards show and I said to them, you know, thank you for what you've given me. They're like, oh, brilliant. No, no worries, but like, but I I genuinely mean it from the bottom of my heart. They've they've given me this this chance and this opportunity to it goes beyond the job, you know, it goes beyond what I do on a daily basis. This has given me the chance to hopefully help other parents understand this loss, try and deal with this loss, and try and move through the process a little bit easier. And and and and like I said, I'm proud of me and Crystal. We've we've come a hell of a long way since it it happened. Proud that we're still together, and I couldn't do any any of this without her anyway. But yeah, thank you, mate. That's all I can say, and and and thank you for allowing me the time to come on and share, share what you know, and just have another conversation about this, you know. That's that's what it's all about, man. So uh just about to do day 21 of my challenge. Um, so far the body is taking it. Um got a bit of stiffness in my back tonight, um, but I'm sure that'll loosen up as I run. I've currently done 122.5 miles of my challenge, which is pretty incredible when I look at it really, um, really enjoying it. Uh, there is challenges, as I've told you on WhatsApp already. Like tonight I'll run and I'll finish in an hour, just under an hour, and I'll have a shower. And then it'll be a 10-hour window, and then I'll be back out at a quarter to six tomorrow morning. So, but yes, those parts are quite tough. But you know what? Like I said already to you, it is a challenge, but it's nothing compared to what we um uh what we faced this time nearly 10 years ago. So, yes, thank you for your support. Really, really, really appreciate it as always. Um, but yeah, that is my update so far. Just about to do 21, day 21, so 21 days done. Um, and yeah, three weeks, mate. Three weeks, uh, which is nuts.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you for listening today. This podcast episode is dedicated to the ones we hoped for but never met, and the ones whose time with us was all too brief. If you want to stay in the loop of what's going on at Dad Always, go to datalways.com to join the email list to receive updates.

Head Shot

Kelly Jean-Philippe

Host